ND Pride

I agree. When you have two players from one region the selection methodology is a problem because of the potential for split votes diluting the distribution in the region that has more than one nominee.

And while I am at it, congrats to Red River on winning the state championship. Matt Malm has done a very nice job in the various coaching positions that he has held over his career.

You are welcome. And another Minot player, Rody Selk, formerly of the Jets is now playing for Des Moines and, as is well known, Jordan Willert is at Tri-City along with former Central player Mario Lamoureux.

Are you serious about that question? Eric went to Lincoln after the high school season to play with the Stars of the USHL. Paul played with the Jets after the high school season. Obviously, both would have been tremendous assets to Team North Dakota which went on to play for the Championship of the Showcase only to lose in OT.

Hopefully, many of those who come to this site know the answer. For those who do not, it would be Tyler Jundt from Williston who is now playing for the Green Bay Gamblers and Andy Dittus from Minot who is also at Green Bay. Dittus and Jundt both played very well at the Chicago Showcase last year. Most everyone knows that Paul Weisgarber played with the Jets after the high school season last year and is now with the Waterloo Blackhawks. Eric Galt was with Lincoln and now plays for North Iowa. Hopefully the top senior players in the state will be trying out for Team North Dakota and the state will have another outstanding performance at the Showcase.

Well, the two teams did play on the 26th of January and Mario and Tyler both received 5 minute majors for fighting in the 3rd period. Mario will definitely mix it up if needed so no surprise there. Interesting story and with the Mario connection and the penalties I would say you've got the facts on it now.

Well, Tri-City did beat Green Bay last night 2-1 in USHL action but Tyler Jundt was not on the game roster for Green Bay. Tyler was on the roster for the previous game with Ohio. Your story seems to be untrue. The teams did play on January 27th but Jundt and Willert did not have any penalties and I would expect that Jundt would have had one if that was a true story. Sounds like a fairy tale.

Well, your original post under someone else's screen name was not a model of clarity. For example, you used the term "grad school." Now typically I do not hear people refer to medical school, law school, or dental school as graduate school. Technically, they fall under the category of professional schools. The term grad school conjures up the image of people slaving to do their master's theses and dissertations in an academic discipline (history, english, psychology, communications, etc.) which is a different sort of animal than the aforementioned professional schools. In any case, you did clarify the point that you were trying to make.

Could you clarify something for me please? I have never heard of anyone ever taking 32 credits a semester in graduate school much less than that being an average load. At most universities your can receive a master's degree for 30 to 40 credits (including thesis credits if a thesis is required). So if what you are saying were true then most students would finish the bulk of their credits for a masters in one semester which is clearly not the case in any graduate program that I have seen. In addition, a doctoral degree is typically around 96 credits post bachelor's so by your analysis you could have your doctorate in 3 to 4 semesters. Could you please clarify if you really inteneded to say that graduate students take 32 credits a semester because I have never heard of such a case. In fact, taking more than 12 credits a semester requires a waiver from the Graduate Dean at some schools. Also, I agree with your general analysis and logic but have some qualifications on your generalizations. Your comments about a well rounded person are well taken and true. The better grad programs now often do not take students with GPA's of 3.0 but admissions is competitive and 3.4 and up is more the norm especially if you want a tuition waiver or assistantship. Some schools will let in anyone with a 3.0, that is true, but many require higher grades than that especially with some of the grade inflation that takes place. I don't want to negate what you said about being well rounded as I agree with it, but many graduate schools do not gather information on whether you played in a sport or not and most do not care - also, there is no place on the application to put it at some schools. The main concern for grad school admission is academic competence. I would put emotional maturity next but you can only get an indication of that from the letters provided by those who write references. Bottomline, be a well rounded person, diversity your activities (extra curricular activities of any type) but get the best grades that you can get as grad school is a competitive process. The section in bold below is taken from the UND website for the grad school. An entire program can consist of a minimum of 30 credits so the idea that 32 a semester is possible is out of line. At 3 credits a course that would be over 10 courses a semester which would be clearly impossible. At 4 credits a course it would be eight courses per semester. No quality graduate program would endose such a load. Thesis Option Course Requirements. A minimum of 30 semester credits is required in a program of study for the M.A. or M.S. degree in a major field.

They do not have state tournaments for squirts sanctioned by the NDAHA - a simple search of the NDAHA web site will show that to anyone who can read. Also, from the Grafton Squirt A schedule from the Grafton Hockey website is says that the squirt "A"s are in the Northern Lites tournament in DL on March 2, 3, and 4th. The Northern Lites tournament is not a state tournament designed to determine a state champion by the North Dakota Amateur Hockey Association (NDAHA).

Feel free to share how many points you feel each team will end up with, mine goes like this: Red River: 14-0-0 32 pts. Fargo South: 12-2-0 28 pts. Grafton Park River: 9-5-0 22 pts. Devils Lake: 9-6-0 20 pts. Fargo North: 6-8-0 16 pts. West Fargo: 5-9-0 14 pts. Grand Forks Central: 2-12-0 8 pts. Shanley: 2-8-0 4 pts. Wahpeton: 0-9-0 0 pts. NOt much different from my view: Red River 32 South 28 Grafton 22 Devils Lake 20 North 18 West Fargo 12 Central 8 Shanley 4 Wahpeton 0

Again, I think there are some issues of semantics here. Would a coach with no skills at discipline be a friend - knowing that discipline is essential in a team context? No, of course not. Also, no discipline is not an innocent situation but can lead to an erosion of respect for authority. In addition, injuries or other problems can result from lack of discipline. Also, what kind of "friend" would give alcohol to underage players thus risking their eligibility. Same for the sexual misconduct. These are not consequences of friendship but outcomes of ignorance, deviance, and other problems. Being approachable, supportive, and so forth are important coaching attributes. I think the problem here is that you are thinking of "friend" in the sense of an age peer - coaches - if they are considered friends are not age peers to their players - they do not engage activities that typify the age group of the players - at the youth level. If a coach is considered a friend to players it is a far different friendship than that between youth players. The role of coach is similiar to that of teacher - a teacher might be considered a friend but the relationship still requires discipline at times. Not sure why I've gotten into this discussion - mainly to point out that I think there are many different conceptions of what a "friend" is and that is making it seem like there is lack of consensus on the issue.

Very nice post. Thanks for all of the hard work.

Does anyone else have scores from Saturday?

Very well stated. I think part of the problem in the discussion revolves around different conceptions of what it means to be a "friend". You have made some important distinctions in your post that help to clarify the nature of "friendship" between adult coaches and players. Coaches can be/should be approachable and friendly at the youth and high school level - however, this friendliness does not extend to the activities that players would have with age peers. I think some of the apparent disagreement stems from issues of semantics. I think if we specified the scope of topics and activities that would constitute "friendship" between players and coaches we would most likely be in agreement on most, if not all, of the dimensions.

This is a great thread with a lot of great analysis. Probably some of the more thoughtful and analytical stuff I have seen on high school hockey issues, juniors, etc. Here is a thought that I am tossing out with no particular intention - in terms of this debate - just a fact I discovered. Last year when Holy Cross beat the Gophers in hockey I went to the Holy Cross website to take a look at where their players had done their "developmental" work in juniors. As we know, the Gophers, like many WCHA teams, pick up kids from NTDP in Michigan, the USHL, etc. Holy Cross had three players from the NAHL (Helena, Bismarck, and Witchita Falls). Again, I am not forwarding a particular point but simply indicating that a team who accomplished a major upset had three players from a Tier II Junior "A" Level League (USHL is Tier I).

Thanks for the updates. I listened to the South/RR game on the radio. Must have been a great game. Congrats to RR.

I agree with knowsall that this whole thing is getting quite hypothetical. There are various principles of training and development and that is all I am sharing as I am not involved in the Meland/Klein debate and the Elite League comparisons. It just touched on some issues related to player development. There are so many variables involved that it does get hard to draw conclusions about individuals. Hopefully we all have a little more appreciation for the complexity of the situation. Hockey is a great sport and perhaps one of the most difficult to make comparisons between players because of the wide variety of skill sets incorporated into the sport. Have a great weekend.

Soohockey the literature on player development that I am citing refers to youth players - those who are still developing physically, we are not talking about professional players already at physical maturity. In addition, these statements that you say are wrong are not things I have "cooked up" but the development principles of established trainers who are well known in the field who work with athletes of all ages (e.g. Peter Twist, Jack Blatherwick, etc, etc). Clearly, I think anyone would see that your example of a pro athlete involved in two different sports at that level would not fit the model - for one thing their seasons overlap and based on what I said about burnout your example would not fit as it is a grotesque exaggeration. It is not an issue of me being right or wrong but an issue of those who study athletic development - the literature is filled with cross training recommendations - playing an additional complimentary sport(s). For example, the training literature contains references to how Russian teams used soccer as an effective cross training sport and that it gave them an advantage as centers on face offs. What you are doing here with your narrative is taking a theme - the benefit of playing another sport - and pushing it logically to an extreme. It is hard enough for kids to play two sports let alone three or four as you use in your example. Good use of logic but it must be disciplined by realism about the length of seasons and overlap and the physiologicial and developmental consequeneces of multi-sport competition. Your analogy is like saying if vitamins are good for me I will take triple the dosage and that will be even better. We know that it does not work that way because the body cannot absorb and use all the extra nutrients from that level of dosage. Furthermore, some sports are better than others from a cross training perspective. You might consider reading "Complete Conditioning for Ice Hockey" by Peter Twist. Human Kinetics. Champaigne, Illinois, 1997. At the time that he wrote that book he was strength and conditioning coach for the Vancouver Canucks, which is a position that, I believe, he still holds. You can get on his website by typing his name in your favorite search engine and you can learn more about his training business. I am going to quote directly from his book on page 219 under the heading of "Off-Season Conditioning Guidelines": "Other sports that involve constant movement along with directional changes and lateral movement (e.g. soccer, tennis, or basketball) may be used. I recommend staying off the ice throughout the off-season, unless your skating skills are quite poor." Twist goes on to say, "Even poor skaters may be better off staying off the ice until the preseason. Practicing skating technique will yield few results without first developing the proper physical attributes needed to support skill execution." Now Twist is only one of the scores of sources that I could dig up if I had the time today. My statements on conditioning are never ideas that I make up on my own. They are based on an extensive literature that is supported by experience and exercise physiology. If there is something that I do not understand I call or e-mail the expert involved. If you want a more detailed bibliography I can try and assemble a list of sources for you. The challenges in developing as a hockey player are many because the sport is based on an unnatural movement (skating) that is structurally different from walking and running. It is a challenge to balance and blend hockey-specific exercises with training activities that are more general (weight training) but which need to be adapted. Hockey has a unfortunate tradition of being behind the times in the application of exercise physiology. That is changing and slowly the knowledge is seeping down to the lower levels of the sport.

Friday night South beats West Fargo 6-2 after trailing 1-0 and North beats Shanley by the same score.

Many top level hockey trainers encourage participating in other sports during the off season as this type of cross training helps to develop the athleticism that creates a better hockey player. Meland's participation in legion ball therefore can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. In addition, particpation in another sport helps to minimize psychological staleness and burnout that can come from the extended pre and post season leagues and tournaments that some kids endure. Bottom line, is that you cannot reliably make a generalization about point production simply based on summer activities. Some kids, who need to improve their skills, can benefit while naturally skilled players can benefit from the time off and come out hungrier in the fall.

I agree that many of the first line players on some of the second tier teams are excellent players and would make top teams like Red River and South and also have a good shot at first line or second line play. Of course, this is a hypothetical statement just like the one that lives-to-play makes about how good third and fourth liners are at RR and how top players on lower tier teams might be on the bubble in trying out for RR or South. Certain actual facts challenge his hypothetical generalization. All you have to do is look at the rosters of Team North Dakota and the NDAHA USA Hockey Select teams and you will see these players from lower tier schools playing along side of top players from South and Red River. In addition, their production is significant and at a par with the other players on the select team. I have not seen a third or fourth liner from South or Red River beat out a legitimate top line player from a lower tier school in a select tryout. And this includes teams coached by individuals such as Matt Malm, Dean Wilson, Tarek Howard, Mark Bry, etc. Sometimes it is hard for individuals who have played for a team with a great tradition to give much credence to players from other teams - that's human nature. The evidence, however, in Select/All Star/AAA team selection shows that objectivity typically comes through and these players are selected by top state coaches and perform well. And to take an interesting case example - let's look at Zach Welding, a Jamestown player who struggled with production last year and is not on a strong team. At the USA Hockey Select 17 Festival (top 240 17 years olds in the country) he had more points than Mario Lamoureux or Paul Weisgarber. Lucky? Maybe. But in that environment you may get some great combinations and show what potential you have. There are a lot of under-rated players out there that would blossom with a higher quality team. I know that is not what some people want to hear but it is often true. Another example, would be Adam Roland - the great running back for the Sioux who was a three sport star at Wahpeton (Football, Hockey, and Track). He was a tremendous hockey player in a weak program but was able to show his true team potential when he was selected, by a former Grand Forks High School player who became a coach, to be on a select team. There are many more examples out there.

I had heard about the possibility of redistricting about a year ago but have not followed it. One consequence of redistricting is that North Dakota might have more players named to the USA Hockey National Festivals each summer. That assumes that those who run the North Dakota Select Program feel that there are enough quality players trying out who would merit going to a Festival that "theorectically" has most of the top 240 players in the country in a specific birth year. That is the only implication that I can think of right now. Actually, there might be one more - the process of qualifying for the Tier I and Tier II USA Hockey National Championships might be different under redistricting. North Dakota has not send a team to Tier I but for many years a Tier II bantam team has been sent.

Who are you addressing in this post? I am responding to another member of this forum and elaborating how a private website works. There is no content in my post regarding your specific comments that you cite. I never said I was offended by your post. Maybe you should start reading the flow of posts and figure out what is going on. Wilbur appropriately made a comment about your disrespecful comments about Hazen and the program that Jeff Gustafson developed. If that is what you are referring to then I think most people would agree that you are insensitive and self-centered. You seem to miss the message that you have been consistently receiving from other participants in this thread. In addition, I find no referent whatsoever in your last sentence, "If we go by what your saying we should list scores....blah, blah, blah.." I have no idea of what you are taking about. You must be mixing up participants in this thread. For future reference, you are using the word "your" when you should be saying "you are".

It is good that you are not defending who I think you are talking about. Not sure how well the 1st Amendment applies here because this is a private site and the moderators can remove posts, which they have done on a number of occasions. In addition, individual members can be removed as well. A number of hockey sites have done that in the past. So, you are incorrect in saying that "nobody can really do anything about it if he wants to form his own opinions and write them on this website." If a moderator deems a post to be offensive it can (and has) been taken down.