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Not allocated Expenses: UND: $1,340,124 NDSU: $2,201,594 I'm sorry, I'm just very tired of seeing that site dragged out over and over again, and its numbers taken as gospel. Those not allocated numbers above are approximately 30% of the budget? How can you possibly talk about the budgets of those schools specific programs, when you don't know where that much of their money is even going to? Its stupid to makes comparisons based on information that doesn't even factor in a over a quarter of the total budget.

So when do you think UND/USD are going to announce which conference they're joining? I'm sure the big sky and mid-con are on the edge of their seats waiting for the big announcement of which of them gets to have UND/USD! Man, the SU's are terrible, they had to take the first conference to admit them, and had to wait THREE years for it. Good thing UND/USD can simply choose their conference and let the members know a year early that they will need to adjust their schedules for their admittance.

I think that people believe hockey will be a hinderance to a successful D-I basketball program, because unlike football and basketball, hockey and basketball are competing at identical times of the year for the same fan base. If you tell someone that you are averaging 11,000 for hockey, thats great, but now tell me what the chances of UND averaging 11,000 for mens basketball is going to be? It simply won't happen, because there isn't a large enough fan base a mid-major type school to have that many fans for 2 different simultaneous sports. Saying "Football is kind at XXX, and their basketball is fine", is a fallacy, because football and basketball aren't directly competing for fans with each other, in fact, they are probably assisting each other, because football fans will likely be bored in the winter, and may switch over to watching basketball. Hockey fans are probably going to watch hockey at UND though, and basketball fans are going to watch basketball. Also, what do you think the mid con is going to assume your priorities are? If UND has a losing season in hockey, and 5-25 season in mens basketball, both likely because of funding, which is UND going to put more money into? Hockey of course, because thats the money maker, and thats where UND gets its claim to fame from. How is the mid-con going to like that though? They'll be stuck playing a low RPI team, screwing over their most important sport. (This is a hypothetical situation to show the importance of certain sports teams at UND, don't tell me that its unlikely to happen, I know that). Douple has been talking about getting the conference up to two bid status in the future, and the presidents want that to be their goal. In order to do that they will need to bring the bottom feeders in the conference up in RPI, by getting them to add more funding. I think that they'll consider UND's basketball success probability very, very hard to add them to the conference. Even the most die hard UND fans have to admit that NDSU/SDSU combination presents a better chance for D-I basketball success than UND does. I know that neither school has exactly been dominating, but NDSU really looks like they've put together a great team, and SDSU has almost everything in place, including the history, to produce a winner. That has to come across as better than mens basketball being your fourth priority (hockey, football, womens basketball). Finally, mid con coaches are going to know that hockey is going to be used against UND in the recruiting process in basketball. Its hard enough to get D-I talent, how is it going to be trying to get talent, when other coaches are telling your recruits that they are the last priority at UND, so they should attend somewhere else to play?

I think a key question fans need to ask themselves is why would the big sky after three years of the SU's begging them for admission, now want to expand to the Dakotas, when both SU's will likely be in the midcon. Is UND worth that much more in october than the SU's were last spring? I'm not making a judgement, but I think the issue really comes down to this point.

I don't think anybody has to worry about this situation for the next twenty years.

Ah, yes another of Fullertons victims. There was a time when I took him seriously, but no more. Seriously, in that article the guy sounds a little full of himself, discussing how "everybody wants in" blah, blah, blah. Don't give him the satisfaction of letting him get your hopes up, only to crush them, its all his does. Fullerton is a dream breaker, and I think hes a little mad that the SU's aren't going to play anymore. And "one of the best conferences in Division I", yeah, its not exactly the big 10 over there. And I almost laughed about the comments about "only adding schools that help with competitiveness". Thats why they added UNC, the team that beat, what, one great west team in two seasons? And the mens basketball program that it took two years to get a division I win? Yeah, much better than the SU's. And I'm glad that the UNC football players are sooo much happier in the big sky, it must have gotten rough coming in last in the great west two years running. That article was almost unbelievable. About your scenario, I don't really agree with a lot of it. Why would the big sky, if they intended to have UND and NDSU in conference, wait for the mid con to complete its expansion, before even giving NDSU a hint? If they were really serious, they wouldn't have done that, they would have extended a visit to at least NDSU during the last expansion round to at least keep themselves in the running for NDSU. I think in all of that talk, you missed the blatant options for the sky... adding only denver. Gives 10 for basketball and 9 for football. The other choice, but more unlikely, is only S. Utah is added. Gives 10 for both. In either of these scenarios, UND is most likely up a creek, as the mid con most likely won't move to the dakotas for a single member, and will probably be forced to take UTPA.

I'm pretty sure mid-con competition will be starting for the SU's in 07-08, as has been previously stated, for when Valpo leaves the conference. I also think its unlikely, even in the unlikely scenario you layed out above, that USD will get an invite in probably their first year of D-I transition. In that case I would say UTPA gets a nod.

Yeah, pretty sure the GWFC isn't really an established conference that would count for this. That and I doubt that DI-AA football has the same importance as basketball to the NCAA.

No way that passes. The rule wasn't created to make sense, it was created to discourage move ups from going, to protect the basketball money. If it does pass, what do you say to school that have recently moved up with a conference, such as UC Davis? Sorry? Its also laughable that they think they are going to have home and home football games with memphis, missouri, and whatever other school was on there.

I appreciate your responses and I understand where you're coming from. I guess I hadn't personally noticed threads such as recruiting etc. having budget discussion, but I don't take the time to go through this site as I'm sure you do. I would hope that a lot of my opinions aren't nearly as offensive as some of the readers of this site have indicated to me in the past couple of days, I really am only trying to have legitimate discussion on a lot of these topics. Even though the vast majority of what I say isn't positive for UND, I would hope that people understand I'm not trying to hurt the institution by voicing opinions that may not be in lock-step with what the majority thinks. I'm thinking I may back off of posting at the frequency I have been for a couple of weeks, as I think I have irritated a few to many people on the board, and any post of mine would be counter-productive for an intelligent conversation about anything.

This argus article states a few schools budgets and UND's budget without hockey for 04-05. Argus Leader

Refer to the D-I budget thread, I have posted an article that is relevant to this post.

First, I haven't hijacked any threads, those were other members. Second, Pro-communist ideals was obviously sarcasm, I thought if I made it stupid enough, people would see its obviously sarcasm. Guess not. Third, shouldn't a discourse be under a thread about UND moving D-I, or are we now only allowed to talk about how great the move is in that thread? I don't understand the logic in having this stuff posted on another thread. Finanaces are a big deal in a move. Ask savannah state. Aren't any of you concerned about it, or are you just going to pretend that every thing is fine?

Of course you would kick me off, I said something against UND, God forbid anyone says something about the budget (even though your own president has voiced his concern about it). I mean, the president of UND can not be sure, but lord knows that anyone on this board that doesn't think it might work out should be booted. Seriously, what you call "anti UND propaganda" in asking questions about a budget in D-II that needs tuition waivers to stay afloat, I call common sense. What do you expect? Your AD issues a report about a coming deficit in D-II. Your own president doesn't want to move because he doesnt think the money is there. You can't even get a womens hockey program funded with actual money in scholarships, and have to use tuition waivers. But then you call anyone who doubts that UND can make it financially in D-I as someone who spouts off propaganda? Its just common sense, you can't afford what you have now, your financial plan involves telling people that the move up costs $1 million, which is incorrect, your president has quotes such as "we may be forced to move, even though it makes little sense" etc. and you have the guts to tell people that they are talking about propaganda? I guess your definition of proganda is anything you don't want to hear. Go ahead, stick your head in the sand, see what happens. And I'm unreasonable asking questions to UND fans that they can't possibly answer? Does that maybe ring a warning bell for anyone on here? That theres no plan for this move, so these questions can't be answered? You would think that maybe, just maybe, before announcing UND was going to go D-I, they might, I don't, HAVE A PLAN TO ACCOMPLISH IT. I'm sure this is just some more propaganda though. Why have a plan, when you can just declare your moving and hope it works, or not in kuppys case, when he leaves before the transition is even done, and UND is left holding the basket. God, I guess I just can't stop myself with the propaganda though. I would like you to look through my posts and show me where I said hockey didn't generate money. I pointed out ways that hockey was going to hurt you in this move, probably more than the money you're making. Here were my points: 1. Hockey is at the same time as mens basketball. Only one can be a fans priority. Mens basketball conferences are going to assume its hockey, which it is. 2. Womens hockey is a huge drain on your budget, and requires scholarships to even get out of having tuition waivers. 3. Hockey is going to get scheduling priority over basketball, meaning that either the conference that UND could possibly join is going to have to schedule around UND hockey, or UND is only going to have approximately a 4000 seat basketball arena. Look at the arenas of schools being added to the midcon coming up (NDSU will soon upgrade their arena). 4. Conferences will assume that hockey will get funding priority over mens basketball. That doesn't speak well to a commitment to mens basketball.

Ever heard of sarcasm.

Right, he just doesn't want to hear them when talking about UND going D-I. So to summarize, when discussing UND going D-I, the budget isn't a valid topic, even though its the single most important factor in a move. Since we're making comments about each others posts that are almost crazy in their comparisons such as my "hysterical rants", I'm getting pretty offended by all of your pro-communist ideals you keep lambasting us with.

Sorry for saying that NDSU had raised fees, I thought I heard that, but I was incorrect. Thanks for the info.

I never said it was "dubious". The point of that site is to show the relationship between mens and womens sports at an individual school, and how they are in reference to title IX. The site accomplishes these goals very well. The site wasn't intended as an indicator of total athletic budgets to compare school to school, as many posters have done, and it doesn't show everything that is or isn't in a budget. Advertising for instance. This doesn't really have to do with men or women, and isn't a title IX issue, so is it included with that site? There are several anamolies like this when using it. The site asks questions in a way that ensures that questions are answered equally for males and females at a school, but not for each individual school. I believe this is a reason why I'm sure USD comes out looking great on there...because they have to because they have 60% girls and 40% boys. If you want references for budgets heres a few I've used before. SDSU: SDSU Report SDSU Report 2 Years ago USD: USD Volante Article- 2 years ago UND: I've been using your task force report saying you were going to run a deficit for claims about UND NDSU: I've never commented on their budget Trash the USD article if you want, but thats straight from the horses mouth. Don't like it, fine, but don't tell me its not accurate. I will choose to believe USD budget from USD's AD.

For one of your questions, SDSU and now every SD public institution isn't allowed to increase student fees to pay for D-I because of a governing law passed by the SD board of regents when they were trying to transistion. This is one of the main reasons that a move to D-I by USD is so unrealistic right now. I believe that NDSU has increased their student fees, but someone more in the know can confirm that. Equestrian is more than enough to offset gender balances at any school, since it can involve upwards of 60 girls (not all on scholarship of course) from a numbers point of view. For scholarships, equestrian coupled with other womens sports with higher scholarship limits should also be enough for title IX, unless there are significantly more women than men at the school (USD again).

I didn't say there wasn't a right to do that, but he also needs to decide if this board is only for posting positive information on UND, or if realistic questions can be asked about UND's plans. I don't think that asking a series of serious of questions about the financial situation of a school moving to D-I is that out of line to ask. If nobody is allowed to question the monetary situation of UND thats fine, but don't pretend this board is being realistic about anything anymore. Its no better than propaganda in my view.

I have to say I think you've been pretty fair in the past, but this is kind of out of line. If there is a thread title "UND D-I move" you no longer want to discuss the budget of UND on that thread? Is that really the message you want to send out to people? I don't think that it is at all obvious that UND can actually fund this move, but you're already calling monetary concerns "spam"? I don't think there would be the problems with budget concerns on a lot of these UND D-I threads if there were actual answers to those questions out there from your administration. Whose fault is it that there isn't answers? Posters from other schools with legitimate questions, or the UND administration? I will personally abide by this thread if thats what you truly want, but I think you should reconsider your threats to posters for putting up questions about UND's budget. And for the record, I don't think it was that big of a deal for a thread about UNO's budgets concerns (with obvious parallels to UND) to turn into a debate along the same lines for UND. I think a bigger problem was people bringing up UND hockey championships in a thread about UNO's budget problems. Which one seems more out of place to you?

I'm going to be pretty interested in who gets hired as the new chancellor. This is probably the worst thing that could happen to the NDUS.

Yeah, and no, you don't like to use numbers from a press release and an interview with an AD. You like to use numbers that are over a year old as evidence that UND and USD aren't running a deficit this year. Wow.

Oh, you must be refering to the numbers reported directly from the AD's mouths. I guess thats a bunch of crap though. We should go with the site that has five or six categories for all expenses. Those must all be the same way of reporting. Get your head out of the sand, its just as easy to manipulate those reports as it is to make up an entire budget. Those numbers are reported by the schools, nobody checks them, and that categories are vague enough that you can put whatever you want. They all aren't reported in the same manner as you claim. So how about those questions? Are tuition waivers included on those reports? Those are obviously an athletic expense. So where are they on the report? What about one time facility upgrades? Are they there. Since you know those are all reported in the same manner, you must know if those are on the report or not. Or just ignore this and try and trash interviews with AD's reporting their own budgets. What do they know about athletics.

Q: So how is UND going to fund a move to D-I? UND Fan: We have 7 national hockey titles. Do you want to know the years? Q: No, I want to know how you're going to fund a move to D-I. UND Fan: We beat Wisconsin the last two years in hockey thats how. Q: Umm ok, so how are you going to be competitive in basketball in D-I, when you haven't been in D-II. UND Fan: The frozen four is the best attended event in the NCAA. Q: I didn't ask that, but alright. So what about that deficit that you're running in D-II. Can you make that up. UND Fan: We play minnesota in hockey every year. Q: I don't care. So where are you going for a conference. UND Fan: We're in a conference with minnesota, and wisconsin and we play them every year. Q: The mid con seems kind of full, are you sure they'll want you? UND Fan: Hockey. Q: What? What are you even talking about. UND Fan: The ralph is the best facility on the face of the planet. Hockey is played in it. Q: Are you going to talk about anything besides hockey? UND Fan: What? You want to talk about hockey? Did you know that UND has 7 national hockey championships? UND Fan: Did you know that Jesus was the first hockey player? Q: I don't think thats correct. UND: Oh man you are so jealous of our championships. Get it over it, we're the best. Q: I'm leaving. UND Fan: HOOOOOCCCCKKKKEY. So anybody want to talk about your move to D-I in other sports?