aff

And you don't have approval from the other side. Nice as it would be to get one side to matter more than the other it doesn't. FSU got approval from every side that matters. UND didn't. There's no arguing that. What do you expect the NCAA to do. Tell the other tribe that they don't matter, even though there just as much Sioux as the tribe you have approval from? The NCAA did talk to both sides, and one side didn't approve it. You're the one who doesn't want to talk to both sides.

Why is that funny? How much do you envision putting up a large poster of a viking and a large poster of a knight or something like that to cost? Thats really all you would need. Maybe a few donors would even be willing to donate a few pictures or something like. Does that sound like $500,000 to you? How much is the cost of removing every sioux logo going to be? How much is the cost of a lawsuit against the NCAA going to be? I'm pretty sure that marquette pulled this of pretty cheaply, but you're right, go with the lawsuit and pray it works. Worry about the consequences later.

I think the point the NCAA has made was that with the local tribes approval, you can have your name. The seminole tribe in florida said it was alright, than its alright. Despite all of the bluster I've heard about how great UND is for native americans, UND didn't get the approval of those native americans for its logo. Right or wrong, thats the bright line test that the NCAA is abiding with. I don't really know how UND can defeat this in court. I don't know how you can say that the NCAA is treating you differently with this either. Illinios didn't get approval, their still on the list. In fact, every school that didn't get approval from tribes is still on the list. It sounds like equal treatment to me. I seriously don't understand why there has to be this big commotion about this whole thing in the first place. UND should just go with warriors like marquette did, and leave all of the logos alone, and add a few pictures of warriors of different races in you're athletic facilities. You could probably even leave your current mascot in place on your uniforms. There, done, the NCAA pretty much got screwed, since they didn't accomplish anything, and UND has to spend about $3000 on a couple of new pictures for your facilities. Does that appeal to anybody?

What? How is this going to be a state matter? The state is going to pay for it? Or you think the attorney general is going to try it for you? I'm pretty sure either way is wrong, and that you might be thinking of the recommendation from your attorney general to try the case, I don't think he said that he was going to try it for you. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't even imagine the !@$! storm that would occur in your legislature if state money and state lawyers were trying this case for UND. That would be lost votes for whoever your govenor currently is too, and he doesn't need to lose them. Why alienate people that might have voted for you, when there are so many donors willing to put up money like the loyal members of this board?

I'm sorry, but I think I read that you called Kupchella's letter "very direct rhetoric". That just was very funny to me. And you don't think the NCAA considered the legal ramifications of this? Really? Who do you think is running this organazation, a bunch of monkeys? Do you know how many lawyers work for the NCAA? You don't think maybe this whole thing might have crossed one or two of their desks on the way up? Look, I said it in the post above, but I'll say it again. If marquette changed their name, and Illinios hasn't brought this to court, there's probably a good reason for it. I don't know why you think UND is going to walk all over the NCAA on this.

I don't think I argued that the name was inappropriate, so I don't know why you're giving me the PC issue. I seriously could care less if UND takes the case to court. Its all of your generous donations that are going to be paying for, and I'm not going to tell anybody how to spend there money. The only point I've ever made is that alot of schools with alot of prestigous law schools and lot of the top law minds in the nation haven't thought that an appeal was worth the time or money, so I don't know how UND was going to be any different. But you think it is, great, I could care less, spend a whole years salary on the appeal, maybe you'll get lucky maybe you won't. I know how I think the appeal will turn out, and you're welcome to you're opinion too. I also don't think I attacked the Sioux or UND in any form. All of my comments were directed at Kupchella. His comments were at best immature, and at worst, stupid and hurtful to the university. I am glad to see you think that he "took the gloves off". Hope you're ready for the NCAA to "take the gloves off" too. They have literally hundreds of lawyers ready to go on this issue. Oh, and they control the division I movement process. And where tournament sites are in the future. And any other problems you may have with your athletic programs in general. I guess I can see from all that, why it would be a good idea to piss them off, especially for a goal as noble as thumping your chest, and getting absolutely nowhere on the issue at hand. WOW, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!! So, to sum up: UND wrote an idiotic letter to the NCAA that has the possibility of hurting themselves for years to come in any and every aspect of their athletic program. This letter accomplished absolutely nothing. Amazing.

I have to agree Orygun Sue about this. Although I think a lawsuit is probably a waste of time and money, I can at least understand where UND is coming from going to court over it. I can't understand though, why Kup. would write a letter in the manner he did. Like running your mouth to the NCAA is going to get you anything. There's a reason that people in power speak diplomatically, and theres a reason that letters like the one that Kupchella don't get sent out by responisible administrators. The tone of the letter he sent out borders on immature and childish, and there was absolutely no reason for it. The only thing it accomplished was letting members of this website beat there chests, and only God knows how much harm it has caused UND for the future. I know that alot of people are probably going to blast me for this, but I don't really care. Theres are reason that President Bush doesn't tell Iran, "You arrogant moron's better get rid of those nukes yesterday, or I'm going to blow you straight to hell", even though many people would like to hear that, and it would make many americans feel good. Talking like that takes away any chance of compromise in the future, and I've learned that taking away future opportunities for something as stupid as what this letter's purpose was, is always a bad idea. How do you think your future dealings with the NCAA are going to go? Not just with the name issue, but maybe with D-I transition issues? Or maybe with some of the assignments for tournaments 10 years from now. If you don't think the NCAA will remember this, than you don't understand what you're dealing with. And I'm not saying all of this will happen, or even any of it. But if one of these things does happen, was it worth it. Was the risk of one these things happening worth a letter that accomplished absolutely nothing? How do you think you appear to the outside world? One side is the NCAA talking in normal business like way, and the other side is UND screaming that the NCAA is a bunch of arrogant idiots for not letting them use an indian mascot. You come off looking like a bunch of crazed people that have been in ND too long. Again, thats not what I think, thats how Kuppy just presented you. Sorry this is getting long, but it just floors me that someone with a Ph.D. could be stupid enough to act like this. There is a way to accomplish things, and this is not it. He's not being tough, he's not being passionate, he was just stupid, and didn't accomplish a single thing except for making any compromise almost impossible. Congratulations.

I don't know where this idea that the great west has an infinite ability to accept teams from the Dakota's has come from, but this is about the thousandth time I've read this scenario for 4 or 5 ex-NCC schools to be in the great west. Right now there is room for one school from the NCC, which will be UND if it takes the spot. As for USD, St. Cloud, Mankato etc. there's no more room. How many times do you really think the California schools are going to want to come out to the dakotas? You really think they want to spend 4 or 5 games flying back and forth from california to go to places like Mankato, St. Cloud, Brookings, Grand Forks, Vermillion? No. The great west was formed out of desperation, and was formed with the idea that the Dakota schools would have one trip per season to california, and the california schools would have one trip to the dakotas per season, which is within budget. The schools in california don't have money to waste coming to minnesota, and the Dakota's that much every season. There gets to be a point where it is better just to go back to being an independent instead of worrying about spending money going thousands of miles to let the dakotas have the good ol NCC back. If things come to the California schools saying, either we don't add any more members from the northern area, or we quit, who do you think the SU's are going to side with? The schools that executed a boycott of them during their toughest years, or the schools that are giving them some real credibility in I-AA ranks? St. Cloud, USD, and Mankato are really going to be in a tough spot if they think they are going to walk into the great west. Once the conference is back up to six, there's no need for any of them, especially if the SU's are in the mid con also. The conference will be relatively stable, and if it does lose a member (maybe SUU) then the great west can first, make a push for a california school, and then pick the best school out of the three, probably USD, for SDSU's rivalry. Another point is why would the SU's even want these schools in there conference? If they moved up and were desperate for money, the SU's could pretty much dictate playing terms to the schools for OOC games. The SU's don't need them for anything, they've already just about got their schedules lined up for the next couple years. The NCC schools are going to be the ones desperate for money and home games. All of the schools really didn't do themselves any favors with a boycott of the SU's during these transition years. And plus, why would the SU's want to give up their recruiting advantage over those schools? They have the conference, they can promise trips to california to recruits, a chance at the playoffs, and plenty of local games. The NCC schools can promise... they'll be sent out to get slaughtered for 8 games a season to bring home money to balance the budget. The more I think about it, the more I think theres about 1 D-I spot left in the area, and everyone after that is going to get screwed hard core.

Thats not a true or false question, thats a value question. You need to compare the values of money you will be spending as an increased amount vs. the amount of return you will recieve for the university. Its my contention that the amount UND is going to have to increase isn't possible, or isn't worth the money. You might as well ask True or fasle: Having a Lamborgihini to use to get dates is in your best interest. If you have a spare quarter million it is, but if you have to sell your entire house and take out a loan and not be able to afford groceries, maybe it isn't quite worth it. I'm sorry to tell you this will be my last post on the subject for about a week. I have a vacation coming up. Good Luck in the next week!

whats your source on that any way, i have been looking for that website.

Interesting you bring that up. I know very personally of an exchange that was made with a brookings company in 2005 that can acount for that deficit (not really a deficit though, as the SDSU alumni association payed the costs). Been to Frost arena or Coughlin Stadium lately. I think youll see what I am talking about.

Thats correct, I was attending SDSU in Fall of 2004, along with USDSU in Sioux Falls (hence the once a week travel to Sioux Falls). My degree is actually from USD though, so I don't think you can use the SDSU attendance against me too much. I'll give you a hint at what it is. Its a pretty common master's degree, you can get it from USD, and it starts with a B. It's business, you got me red handed. And just as I thought, the conversation has moved from the deficit that UND has to my work life. Do you guys want to hear about where I work next? We should change the name of the forum to "Facts about aff". If you are really that curious, PM me, and I'll will tell you my life's story, as long as you do the same for me. So, I heard UND might be moving D-I, huh? Don't they have a deficit right now.

OK, lets go with the what, was it 200,000 or 300,000 deficit last year? That one materialized. I guess that doesn't matter either though, theres definitely not a trend there. But you're right, there's tons of money to be made balancing budgets in D-I. I mean look at all the schools that go there, money just falls off of trees. Its definitely not even more expensive to play in D-I. I'm sure that the added scholarships with little chance of being as competitive as you currently are will do wonders for your budget. I mean, those championship hopes every year in football have to be killing your attendance year after year. Going D-I with no post season, and being at a distinct recruiting disadvantage to your former rivals will really help with getting people into the stands. Great thinking. Since it matters soooo much I attended the University of Illinois for my undergrad, and the University of Minnesota for my Graduate degree. Are you happy now? Ready to tell me that women's basketball at Illinios lost to Northern Colorado this year now? That mens basketball at minnesota keeps losing all of its decent instate recruits to Marquette? That Illinios football is terrible, and that Zook sucks? Congratulations, you still have a whopping deficit to work with.

Nice try, but everyone reading this board knows you're trying to deflect attention from a $700,000 deficit (not debt, thanks woden). So I'll ask again, like I did on the other thread, why are you going D-I when you can't afford to be D-II? Just answer it. I don't want to read about: 1. I'm ignorant 2. NDSU blah blah blah 3. SDSU blah blah blah 4. We already have enough money! 5. We'll make it work, you'll see. The truth is there is no plausible explanation, and all of you know it. You're just choosing not to admit it. So I'm going to keep rubbing the $700,000 deficit in your faces until you actually discuss what the logic of it is. Before you ask, I care because its funny to read you're posts about how everything is fine when its obviously not in any way "fine". Its like watching a relator try and sell some dump. You know its a dump, he/she knows its a dump, but they'll be damed if they admit its a dump. It's "cozy", or "economical". Whatever, its a piece of crap, and I'm going to call you on it.

This just in. You're not in mid major D-I athletics, you're in D-II, running a deficit of over a half million dollars. By your own admission D-I mid major athletics isn't profitable. How are you going to break even then?

I'm sorry, you are correct, it is a deficit, not a debt. Does it make you feel better that UND will have to add 3-5 million on to that deficit in order to be D-I? Unfortunately, it would have been better for UND if this was a debt. A debt could have been payed off, while a deficit will have to be budgeted. Its tough to balance a budget when you're adding expenses though, isn't it? Its funny, I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation of a very simple question. Here it is: "Why is UND going D-I when they have a deficit of $700,000 in D-II". I swear to you, if anybody actually attempts to answer this, I will respect your post, and not absolutely destroy it.

Hey I've got a great idea, if we mock people asking legitimite questions about our finances, those problems will stop existing!!!!! Isn't that a great idea. I challenge anybody to explain the logic in going D-I with a $700,000 debt. Woden, break it down real simple for me. I'm just an idiot that can't understand why buying something bigger is a good idea when you're already in debt.

What difference does NDSU's budget make? Ohio States budget is 89 million. Now that you know that, did your $700,000 debt disapear? No. How can you possibly think that going D-I is going to balance your budget? That there is even a debate over this is laughable. None of you have any idea how this is going to get payed for, and yet you are such big athletics fans that you are saying to yourself "Who cares, the money will come from somewhere, just go D-I and it will work somehow.". Guess what the admin at Savannah state said? The same thing. Is it that unimaginable that your mens basketball team could go winless over an entire season in two years? Being D-I isn't going to be getting you better football recruits, money will. If you don't have it, then are you going to enjoy watching NDSU beat the hell out of your football team? Right now you'll be competitive with them. When you have the same scholarship numbers and no post season to sell to them, you won't be. Good luck, I think if you go for this D-I move with no idea about money, you're going to be in for a world of hurt of the next five years. And about the schools academics. I've found that no matter what school or what level of college I attended, the amount I got out of of the school was dependent on the amount I put in. People act like these rankings tell you how much learning that school will inject in you while you attend, which is rediculous. The rankings are idiotic. You're telling me that if I went to UND and was taught my undergrad education by a Ph.D professor, I'm going to learn less than I would being taught by a work study masters student at illinios. Give me a break.

Ohhh... I see. Thanks for explaining it to me. The report that is supposed to be a recommendation for a move to D-I wasn't supposed to have a detailed financial plan for a move to D-I. Makes perfect sense. I mean how else would you decide if you wanted to go D-I? God knows you wouldn't want to have detailed financial information. So when is this detailed financial information going to come foward? After a decision has been made? Seems kind of late to me I guess. Give me a break, that whole paragraph is the biggest spin I have ever read. The reccommendation for D-I doesn't have the actual financial information in it? Thats really your defense? By your own admission the school will go D-I either 1) Blind to the financial consequences or 2) Using incorrect assumptions. And don't worry, I get what wooden is saying. I think what I read was that UND had a 17 million budget, 10 of which goes to sports and 7 of which goes to hockey. Since 10 million is already what NDSU is at, they don't need to change anything. Seems like he might have forgot about the REA in that. In either case it doesn't matter. Here are the FACTS, even from your own report: 1. UND is currently running a 700,000 deficit. 2. UND is currently considering D-I. Can anybody see why I'm having trouble understanding the situation right now? You can't maintain your budget in D-II, and yet your admin is telling you that there will be minimal costs to going to D-I, and that somehow you're going to make it. Look at it this way. To get to that extra million that you apparently need (from the idiotic comparison to D-IAA schools with no hockey program) you would have to increase your budget almost 2 million to overcome your deficit. Seems like your putting the cart before the horse to consider D-I before your even balanced in D-II, doesn't it? Oh, wait, just tell me I'm ignorant for thinking that having a deficit isn't the best way to go into D-I. Thats easier than realizing the truth.

Thats fine, but you're precious report also had this to say: A $700,000 deficit. And you're going d-I? And somehow, I'm the ignorant one? Whatever, I'll enjoy watching what happens to UND in coming years. You guys are getting led down a dark road right now. You're administration is blatantly lieing to you. I ask anyone of you to call your AD right now and ask him why SDSU and NDSU have already increase their budgets by twice the total amount that UND will have to do. See what he says. P.S. I know your budget is approximately 10 million. I will find the source if you really need it. You heard Rob Bollinger wrong.

Do you seriously believe what you just posted. It's more like UND's budget is around 10 million, with 7 going for hockey. You don't have a 17 million dollar budget and still have to have tuition waivers for womens hockey. And 1 million for a move up is a joke. SDSU and NDSU have both already added over twice that. 1 million is probably the cost to balance UND's budget for D-II.

Right now I'm kind of thinking that UND does have something up its sleve after all. The mid con hasn't wanted anything to do with IPFW for quite awhile, but another team to get to 10 has all of a sudden emerged. I think UND, NDSU and SDSU will be added to the mid con next month. SDSU will partner with UMKC, while UND and NDSU will be travel partners. The admin. at UND has been trying so hard for a conference, I think they may have gotten their wish after all now.

Great questions, and a very realistic outlook on the current situation! Although I would say that UND has a chance at the mid con if NDSU and SDSU go there too, although UND would likely have to wait several years during its transition to gain a spot in the conference. That also is a much tougher sell to alumni than the big sky would be. Going D-I without an actual football conference will be tough for UND to accomplish.

Are you really that proud of being called a "third tier" school. I don't know the ranking system, but I doubt that part of UND's recruiting pitch to potential students is going to be "and we're also a third teir instituition!!". When I think of third tier schools, I think of Northern (SD), Crookston, and the nsic. Not University of XXXXX schools.