What do we honor and respect about the Sioux?

[dagies]

So the Vikings should be paying me royalties because my great grandparents were Swedish? The Fighting Irish owe me some money, too.

By the way, it's time for your Irish cousins to start a complaint campaign with the NCAA about the hostile and abusive nickname and logo at Notre Dame. I would really like to see this nickname policy "worm" turn.

[PCM]

Exactly. Like we should give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks if the tribes are happy? It's what they've told us to do all along. Just because the tribes wouldn't end up validating their position is no reason for us to care.

Charles Kupchella said it best:

USCHO: There is a core group of faculty and staff on the UND campus who have opposed the university

[Fetch]

Lobbiest - PR people - Consultants - Persuasion - Education - salesmanship - campaigns - I don't see spending 1 million on a lawsuit over a narrow legality & ultimate compromise with a monopoly as having turned out to be effective

Or has just having our leadership asking the current tribal leadership to please let us use your name as doing much either.

& now we start over - for 3 more years of the same ol same ol ? ? ?

[PCM]

Lobbiest - PR people - Consultants - Persuasion - Education - salesmanship - campaigns - I don't see spending 1 million on a lawsuit over a narrow legality & ultimate compromise with a monopoly as having turned out to be effective

Think about what you're saying. You're saying that you don't trust the people on the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake reservations to make the decision for themselves. In other words, what you're advocating is just as paternalistic as what the NCAA has done. You want to persuade them to vote the way you'd like them to vote.

Well, guess what? There's a chance that many of them don't care as much about this issue as you do. There's also a chance that most of them will side with their tribal leaders if push comes to shove. And if you start conducting a PR or marketing or lobbying campaign to whip up resentment of the tribal leaders, it's going to backfire -- big time.

[Fetch]

Actually what I have been saying is, it is sad that we have not done much of this at all - & I don't want to do it now

I have said find a way (if possible) to let the people decide once and for all ASAP

are you a sudo earl strinden too

[PCM]

I have said find a way (if possible) to let the people decide once and for all ASAP

And I am saying that's not something we can control or should even attempt to control.

are you a sudo earl strinden too

What's that supposed to mean?

[Fetch]

there is a Huge difference between control & persuasion or making sure the whole story is heard - maybe public forums - debates (I don't know) Earl was from the old school of power in seniority & party politics (good ol boy) but maybe not the right ol boy (as far as answers/new ideas go)

I'm just trying to think outside the box & am tired of how things have worked in the past

I don't really think your like earl

& for clairification - I'm saying I trust the people

I did not say this at all

Think about what you're saying. You're saying that you don't trust the people on the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake reservations to make the decision for themselves. In other words, what you're advocating is just as paternalistic as what the NCAA has done..

[PCM]

I'm just trying to think outside the box & am tired of how things have worked in the past

I think what I heard last Friday was "oustide the box" and hasn't been tried before. In the past, it's been UND pretty much on its own trying to do things for the tribes and hoping that they'll appreciate the efforts. UND has tried to get the tribal leaders on campus to show them how American Indians students are educated, to answer their questions and to show them how UND really uses the nickname and logo. All we seem to get is resentment for trying.

What hasn't happened is having the top leaders from North Dakota government discuss the nickname issue with the top leaders of the tribal governments. There also has never been a time at which the tribal governments have been faced with making a decision that they know will have long-lasting consequences. That alone might be enough to get the "silent majority" to stand up and be heard -- assuming it really exists.

I hope that Stenehjem, Goetz and Paulsen really meant what they said last week while discussing the settlement and that there will actually be high-level discussions with the top government leaders before the tribes make a final decision.

[PCM]

I did not say this at all

You didn't say that directly, but that is the way it will be viewed by the tribes.

[Chewey]

Why not just adopt the "Nordiques" (from the North) or the "Fighting Grenadiers" (Infantry)? Quebec has no hockey team and I'm sure no one would object. I say make one pitch to the tribes and leave it at that. If the leadership members are too stupid to recognize an opportunity that would make life better on the reservations, so be it. Maybe the pocket books of the name change faculty members could be tapped? I too would like to see just "NOrth Dakota" if the "Fighting Sioux" must be retired.

[larsensa]

USCHO Kupchella quote: That's one of the things we label as arrogant by the NCAA. Instead of saying that if the Indian people themselves say it's okay and the official governing body says it's okay, maybe it's okay. Instead they say, "We think it's still wrong." I don't know how they look at what that permission means. Either they enjoy being the victims of hostility and abuse or they don't know any better. I don't know how you place yourself above even the American Indian people in declaring that something is hostile and abusive if they think it's okay.

This sums up the situation so well. Who the heck do the NCAA think they are anyway? It is sad to see how power wacks people out. The people on this committee obviously have a God complex and think schools have given them the power to dictate what is right and wrong by not standing up with UND and the other schools and putting the NCAA in their place. The 1250 member institutions have basically made the NCAA even more powerful by hiding in silence .

In regards to my original question, I think people in GF wanted to honor and respect the historic Sioux when UND picked the name in the 30s. I am not sure people in GF and UND would make that same decision today if UND was only known as the University of North Dakota and was in the process of choosing a name? Not because of the NCAA policy but because of the attitude many have about the current leadership and other issues in the Sioux tribes? Maybe I am off base, but if I am not, I think we really should take this into consideration during this process as iramurphy and others have said.

[Torpedo]

Quick question...has anyone considered simply keeping the name, regardless of whether or not we get approval from the tribes? I clearly understand the monetary consequences like not being able to host playoff events, but other than hockey we wont be able to for a long time anyways. IMO it could be an option to take an 'up yours' approach to this and simply keep the name out of spite.

(I realize that this would never happen but would be interesting to see what kind of support it could generate.)

[Goon]

Quick question...has anyone considered simply keeping the name, regardless of whether or not we get approval from the tribes? I clearly understand the monetary consequences like not being able to host playoff events, but other than hockey we wont be able to for a long time anyways. IMO it could be an option to take an 'up yours' approach to this and simply keep the name out of spite.

(I realize that this would never happen but would be interesting to see what kind of support it could generate.)

It's basically a death sentence. No NCAA playoffs hosted by us ever.

[Torpedo]

It's basically a death sentence. No NCAA playoffs hosted by us ever.

Yeah, obviously it would be a total detriment to the University, but think about it this way...If we as a University have decided to honor the Sioux warriors for being courageous and standing up to oppression and overcoming adversity, isn't it our duty to stand up to the oppression we are now facing from the NCAA? Shouldn't we be obligated to follow the same set of morals and strength the Sioux warriors that we are honoring followed? If nobody is willing to take a stand, nothing will ever be done to stop the oppression of the NCAA. Who knows, maybe we garner some form of support from outside the University...even if we are eventually forced to change, standing up to the NCAA in a way other than just a lawsuit would make a big statement. Just thinking out loud(or in text i guess) here...

[Chewey]

Yeah, obviously it would be a total detriment to the University, but think about it this way...If we as a University have decided to honor the Sioux warriors for being courageous and standing up to oppression and overcoming adversity, isn't it our duty to stand up to the oppression we are now facing from the NCAA? Shouldn't we be obligated to follow the same set of morals and strength the Sioux warriors that we are honoring followed? If nobody is willing to take a stand, nothing will ever be done to stop the oppression of the NCAA. Who knows, maybe we garner some form of support from outside the University...even if we are eventually forced to change, standing up to the NCAA in a way other than just a lawsuit would make a big statement. Just thinking out loud(or in text i guess) here...

I agree with you entirely. Even if we don't get "approval" we should keep the name. This is exactly what someone should do to further call attention to the idiocy of the NC00. Something legislatively really needs to be done to reign that abusive entity in.

[dagies]

I don't think keeping the name if the tribes refuse approval is not a smart move. If you think public opinion is against UND's use now, just wait until then.

UND agreed to a settlement that says we have three years to work with the tribes on approval. If we don't get approval at that time and still keep the name, it will be hard to justify.

[Galley]

We Americans should be doing whatever we can to preserve Native American culture, for it is the only true American culture that we have. I'm descended from Lebanese and European immigrants. There's no one group that I can say I belong to. I lived in North Dakota for more than 20 years, and I never truly felt that I belonged there. Native Americans belong to the land. They belong to the North American continent they have been inhabiting for 10,000 years. It was not ours to take from them. They earned the name "Fighting Sioux" defending their land from the settlers, and from other tribes. They earn my respect by the way they treat the land, by the way they value families, and of course, their bravery. I want every American to be able to appreciate Native American culture, and learn from it. If I still lived in Grand Forks, I would be fighting to protect the name by praising the people it belongs to.

[ZapPoke]

I bet if the majority of people on this board were being truthful, most would admit to not having very much honor and respect for Native Americans. There are so many comments on this board that are basically "we" vs. "them" statements, etc... I am guessing I may have made some myself? I am pretty sure that one of the reasons people want to keep the name is because they don't want the Native Americans to win this 30 year school name fight that UND has had with them. When I was living in Grand Forks I heard plenty of comments about what people really thought of Native Americans, etc... and none of them pointed to honor and respect.

I have been a Sioux fan my entire life but really a fan of the hockey team which is called the Sioux. I will always be a fan of the hockey team and other athletics at UND no matter what the name is because UND is the school I attended and that will never change. It will suck if we aren't the Sioux any longer but that really is only because it is all I have ever known.

So, be honest, what do you truthfully honor and respect about the Sioux and Native Americans? If UND loses the Sioux name, what will you do then to show your honor and respect to the Sioux tribes? How will you fill the void of not being able to honor and respect the Sioux at UND events any longer?

I am asking this because I am really curious about why people really want to keep the name. I am of the belief that it is only because of tradition and nothing else. It has nothing to do with us fans wanting to honor and respect the Sioux tribes.