Hoosier daddy?

[PCM]

Well that's a stretch.

By no means is it a stretch. I'm told repeatedly that if even one American Indian takes offense to UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, it should be changed. So how many people need to take offense at names such as Hoosiers, Vikings, Vandals, Trojans, Fighting Irish, Ragin' Cajuns etc. before the NCAA policy against nicknames based on race, ethnicity or national origin goes into effect? Or was the NCAA simply joking around when it claimed that its policy applied to nicknames other than American Indian nicknames?

The NCAA itself says the policy is intended to end racial stereotyping at the events the association sponsors. The NCAA claims that it's critically important that such events have an atmosphere of dignity and respect for everyone who attends them.

So in other words, if I go to the Frozen Four as a UND fan and a Boston College fan calls me a white trash flatlander Nazi-loving hick (which is no stretch at all), there should be an NCAA cop nearby to toss out the person who offended me, racially stereotyped me and robbed me of my dignity and respect. Because unless the NCAA plans to do that, the idea that every person at every NCAA event must be treated with dignity and respect is a hopeless, uneforceable pipe dream.

The fact is, the NCAA has selectively chosen to invoke a certain core principle (to the exclusion of the one quoted in my signature below) for the express purpose of singling out certain members with a selectively enforced policy that only applies to a minority of a minority.

In any case, that could be said of ANY nickname that has ever been, or might ever be, connected to a group of people.

Bingo. Thus, there's a potential group of people who could be offended -- for whatever reason -- by the use of practically any nickname. What would the NCAA do if such a group claimed that a particular school's nickname was stereotyping them because of their national origin or ethnicity? What would the NCAA do if the same group of Native Americans who claim to be offended by the two feathers in William & Mary's logo decided that they were also offended by NDSU's use of the sacred bison in its logo? Is that a stretch?

The NCAA has already demonstrated that it's willing to turn a blind eye to tribes that object to Central Michigan's use of the "Chippewas" nickname at the same time it turns a blind eye to the Sioux tribe that's given the okay for UND's use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo. At what point do you begin to recognize the NCAA's policy as the hypocritical, selectively applied sham it is?

The thing about UND's nickname is that there is a real group of people who have, in fact, been expressing opposition to its use for at least 30 years, and that group's connection to that nickname is not in doubt.

GET IT?

Yes I do get. I also understand that it's possible for groups of people of certain races, ethnic backgrounds and national origins to just as easily object to the nicknames of other college sports teams if they choose to do so. Just because they haven't doesn't mean they couldn't.

[The Sicatoka]

Well, personally I don't care what exemptions the NCAA may, or may not, have given to other schools.

You may not, but the courts might.

Courts tend to like to see folks covered by the same contract dealt with equally, under the same "Covenant of Good Faith and Fair Dealing".

I guess I can't see how CMU and UND are being treated with the same "Good Faith and Fair Dealing".

Let's see what a judge thinks.

[The Sicatoka]

What would the NCAA do if the same group of Native Americans who claim to be offended by the two feathers in William & Mary's logo decided that they were also offended by NDSU's use of the sacred bison in its logo?

I don't know what the NCAA would do, but I know that everyone from BC to UM-Crookston (all "eagles") and from Colorado to Howard (all bison or buffalos) should be afraid of what they could do if this version executive fiat plays through.

[PCM]

I don't know what the NCAA would do, but I know that everyone from BC to UM-Crookston (all "eagles") and from Colorado to Howard (all bison or buffalos) should be afraid of what they could do if this version executive fiat plays through.

If "The Tribe" + two feathers = American Indian reference...

...then why doesn't "Dakota" + bison = American Indian reference?

[Gothmog]

By no means is it a stretch. I'm told repeatedly that if even one American Indian takes offense to UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname, it should be changed. So how many people need to take offense at names such as Hoosiers, Vikings, Vandals, Trojans, Fighting Irish, Ragin' Cajuns etc. before the NCAA policy against nicknames based on race, ethnicity or national origin goes into effect? Or was the NCAA simply joking around when it claimed that its policy applied to nicknames other than American Indian nicknames?

The NCAA itself says the policy is intended to end racial stereotyping at the events the association sponsors. The NCAA claims that it's critically important that such events have an atmosphere of dignity and respect for everyone who attends them.

So in other words, if I go to the Frozen Four as a UND fan and a Boston College fan calls me a white trash flatlander Nazi-loving hick (which is no stretch at all), there should be an NCAA cop nearby to toss out the person who offended me, racially stereotyped me and robbed me of my dignity and respect. Because unless the NCAA plans to do that, the idea that every person at every NCAA event must be treated with dignity and respect is a hopeless, uneforceable pipe dream.

The fact is, the NCAA has selectively chosen to invoke a certain core principle (to the exclusion of the one quoted in my signature below) for the express purpose of singling out certain members with a selectively enforced policy that only applies to a minority of a minority.

Bingo. Thus, there's a potential group of people who could be offended -- for whatever reason -- by the use of practically any nickname. What would the NCAA do if such a group claimed that a particular school's nickname was stereotyping them because of their national origin or ethnicity? What would the NCAA do if the same group of Native Americans who claim to be offended by the two feathers in William & Mary's logo decided that they were also offended by NDSU's use of the sacred bison in its logo? Is that a stretch?

The NCAA has already demonstrated that it's willing to turn a blind eye to tribes that object to Central Michigan's use of the "Chippewas" nickname at the same time it turns a blind eye to the Sioux tribe that's given the okay for UND's use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo. At what point do you begin to recognize the NCAA's policy as the hypocritical, selectively applied sham it is?

Yes I do get. I also understand that it's possible for groups of people of certain races, ethnic backgrounds and national origins to just as easily object to the nicknames of other college sports teams if they choose to do so. Just because they haven't doesn't mean they couldn't.

I don't necessarily disagree.

For instance, if the Irish people were to begin to express opposition to the "Fighting Irish" nickname, I would absolutely support the NCAA requiring Notre Dame to change it. That nickname is every bit as offensive as "Fighting Sioux", and the "put up your dukes" leprechaun is clearly far more offensive than any image UND is currently using.

The point is that, other than those who use it as a means of opposing the NCAA policy on Native American nicknames, I have never heard an actual Irish person, or any Irish group, object to the name. In fact, those that I have known seem quite proud of the name. I have heard, and seen, many Sioux people object to UND's name.

I don't know what the future holds. But we all know what the past held for the Sioux nation. Given that tragic history, is it too much to ask that UND make this small change just because a clearly oppressed group asks them to? Why do you need any more reason than that?

[The Sicatoka]

From first link in thread:

In colonial America, the terms cracker and hoosier were widely used to refer to white farmers who did not own slaves or large plantations. ... were identified with subsistence farming, and these farmers were poor and usually uneducated. Therefore, these terms had a derogatory connotation.

That describes half of my uncles, and a lot of my cousins (and why I went to UND and didn't farm).

If I get them to protest, I assume you'll jump right aboard the "anti-Hoosier" bandwagon.

[The Sicatoka]

I have heard, and seen, many Sioux people object to UND's name.

Your anecdotal evidence does not seem to align with scientific studies, such as:

- Peter Harris Research Group, in Sport Illustrated

- Annenberg Polling

- the study contracted by the Fargo Forum (American Indians in North Dakota who believe the Sioux name and logo are offensive are in the minority by a 61% to 38% margin).

[Gothmog]

Your anecdotal evidence does not seem to align with scientific studies, such as:

- Peter Harris Research Group, in Sport Illustrated

- Annenberg Polling

- the study contracted by the Fargo Forum (American Indians in North Dakota who believe the Sioux name and logo are offensive are in the minority by a 61% to 38% margin).

You seem to be saying that no Sioux people object to the nickname. Surely you don't believe that. If there is, as you seem to be suggesting, little oppostion to the nickname among the Sioux people, why have such an overwhelming majority of Native American and civil rights organizations expressed opposition to the name?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. The Sioux people, as a group, want the name changed.

[Gothmog]

From first link in thread:

That describes half of my uncles, and a lot of my cousins (and why I went to UND and didn't farm).

If I get them to protest, I assume you'll jump right aboard the "anti-Hoosier" bandwagon.

Gee, I doubt if any of your uncles and cousins would be too keen on following your direction. Given what you just wrote about them, I suspect that you're probably not their favorite person.

[PCM]

Sorry, I'm not buying it. The Sioux people, as a group, want the name changed.

There is ample evidence to suggest that you're wrong. You simply refuse to see it.

The Sioux tribes have every right to lobby UND to change its nickname. And if they can convince the university's leadership that it's in their best interest to make the change, then I have no doubt that the name would change. That's the way it's supposed to work in this country.

No government agency responsible for enforcing civil rights has found UND in violation of anybody's rights because of its nickname or logo. No court has ever forced an insitituion to change its nickname. No legislation has been passed outlawing or banning American Indian nicknames. The NCAA, however, believes that it can very selectively force social change, something the government has not seen fit to do.

I respect your opinion that UND shouldn't use the Fighting Sioux nickname, even though I dont' agree with it. However, the issue currently before the court is about legality, not morality.

[PCM]

Gee, I doubt if any of your uncles and cousins would be too keen on following your direction. Given what you just wrote about them, I suspect that you're probably not their favorite person.

Completely missed the point.

Again.

[Gothmog]

I don't know what the NCAA would do, but I know that everyone from BC to UM-Crookston (all "eagles") and from Colorado to Howard (all bison or buffalos) should be afraid of what they could do if this version executive fiat plays through.

Are you playing some sort of PETA thing now?

Wow, that's a slippery slope argument taken to absurd lengths.

[Gothmog]

Completely missed the point.

Again.

His point was so lame it wasn't worth a comment.

[PCM]

His point was so lame it wasn't worth a comment.

His point was valid. Your was way off target. In fact, your last two points haven't even been close.

[Gothmog]

There is ample evidence to suggest that you're wrong. You simply refuse to see it.

The Sioux tribes have every right to lobby UND to change its nickname. And if they can convince the university's leadership that it's in their best interest to make the change, then I have no doubt that the name would change. That's the way it's supposed to work in this country.

No government agency responsible for enforcing civil rights has found UND in violation of anybody's rights because of its nickname or logo. No court has ever forced an insitituion to change its nickname. No legislation has been passed outlawing or banning American Indian nicknames. The NCAA, however, believes that it can very selectively force social change, something the government has not seen fit to do.

I respect your opinion that UND shouldn't use the Fighting Sioux nickname, even though I dont' agree with it. However, the issue currently before the court is about legality, not morality.

In my opinion, it is wrong for any institution to use the name and image of a group of people if the members of that group have made it clear that they don't want them used in that manner. Regardless of the outcome of this legal case, the NCAA is at least trying to do the right thing, and I applaud them for it.

In the end this case is about morality and nothing else. In our free society it can be very difficult to force one group of people to stop mistreating another group. People will cling to the letter of the law even when they know that, in doing so, they are perpetuating an injustice. In those cases shame is quite often the best approach to take.

SHAME ON YOU UND, you're wrong and you know it!

[GeauxSioux]

In my opinion, it is wrong for any institution to use the name and image of a group of people if the members of that group have made it clear that they don't want them used in that manner. Regardless of the outcome of this legal case, the NCAA is at least trying to do the right thing, and I applaud them for it.

In the end this case is about morality and nothing else. In our free society it can be very difficult to force one group of people to stop mistreating another group. People will cling to the letter of the law even when they know that, in doing so, they are perpetuating an injustice. In those cases shame is quite often the best approach to take.

SHAME ON YOU UND, you're wrong and you know it!

How many memebers of that group would have to object to the use for the institution to change? If the majority of the group wanted to keep it or didn't care one way or the other and the "offended ones" were in the minority of the group would it still be morally wrong in your mind?

[Gothmog]

His point was valid. Your was way off target. In fact, your last two points haven't even been close.

C'mon, the point is not valid and you know it. Back to my original point, for many reasons, the case against UND's nickname simply does not apply to IU's nickname - even if a few farmers from North Dakota (I assume) were to claim to be offended.

[The Sicatoka]

Scientific survey or anecdotal evidence? You decide.

Eagle feathers (and eagles) and buffalo and bison are represenataions of Wakan Tonka (sp) (the Great Spirit) in some American Indian religions. It's not a PETA thing; it's a don't "dis" my god or my religious culture by making them a mascot thing.

PS - I didn't call anyone anything. I quoted a definition of "hoosier" or "cracker".

[The Sicatoka]

C'mon, the point is not valid and you know it. Back to my original point, for many reasons, the case against UND's nickname simply does not apply to IU's nickname - even if a few farmers from North Dakota (I assume) were to claim to be offended.

Again, and at risk of repeating myself:

The word was a "not-so-positive" term applied by others to a group of people (of a particular race) from a region. Now that group uses the term to describe themselves!

But am I talking about "Sioux" or "Hoosiers"?

The NCAA is running under an arbitrary and capricious double standard.

All or nothing. I can live with either.

(That's the only way you can be consistent when this many shades of grey can be demonstrated.)

[dagies]

C'mon, you know better than that! Are you suggesting that one Sioux tribe's qualified support trumps every other tribe's expressed oppostion!?!?! What about Standing Rock, Wahpeton-Sisseton, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, Yankton, Crow Creek, Cheyenne River and Oglala?

A "continuing, open dialog" is simply not possible until UND admits the legitmacy of the Sioux people's request.

If you had read through the extensive discussion on these threads, you'd see that not only does UND have the Spirit Lake Tribe's suppert (which in the NCAA situation is all they said they needed), and Spirit Lake has reaffirmed that support as recently as last spring, but reprentatives from other tribes have visited and been surprised at how respectfully UND is using the nickname. Support in the future, on an official basis, isn't out of the question. In addition, don't ignore the information provided by the Standing Rock Judicial Chair that a poll or vote of the membership showed tribal members supported UND overwhelming. So you boil things down rather simply, but they're really not that simple.

[DamStrait]

In my opinion, it is wrong for any institution to use the name and image of a group of people if the members of that group have made it clear that they don't want them used in that manner. Regardless of the outcome of this legal case, the NCAA is at least trying to do the right thing, and I applaud them for it.

In the end this case is about morality and nothing else. In our free society it can be very difficult to force one group of people to stop mistreating another group. People will cling to the letter of the law even when they know that, in doing so, they are perpetuating an injustice. In those cases shame is quite often the best approach to take.

SHAME ON YOU UND, you're wrong and you know it!

Your willfully ignorant opinion is not relevant. I suspect that your opinion has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with your blind hatred of all things UND.

[Gothmog]

Your willfully ignorant opinion is not relevant. I suspect that your opinion has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with your blind hatred of all things UND.

Are you suggesting that the Sioux people really want UND to use their name? Now that really is willfull ignorance!

[PCM]

Are you suggesting that the Sioux people really want UND to use their name? Now that really is willfull ignorance!

If the polls mean anything, the majority either do or don't care one way or the other.