Hoosier daddy?

[The Sicatoka]

The Indiana University Crackers?

No, no. Hoosiers. What's a "Hoosier"?

"In colonial America, the terms cracker and hoosier were widely used to refer to white farmers who did not own slaves or large plantations."

So

[southpaw]

The Indiana University Crackers?

No, no. Hoosiers. What's a "Hoosier"?

So “Hoosier” and “Cracker” are one in the same. Now, given that, who would dare to say the following?

That, dear readers, is none other than Charlotte Westerhaus, the black woman who is the driving force for diversity in the NCAA, and a driving force behind the characterization of racial/ethnic/national origin monikers (except for Irish, Vandals, Aztecs, and Hoosiers) as being “hostile and abusive”.

So let’s change that to what she really said:

Is that first statement by a black woman intended to be “hostile and abusive” to white farmers? What she really said is in the second, right?

Indiana, the Crackers, is not on the “hostile and abusive” list even though Cracker is the closest thing to the white man’s “n”-word.

Is it because “being a Hoosier” is dear to Westerhaus?

Is it because NCAA president Myles Brand was president of Indiana not long ago?

Or is it be cause it is only “hostile and abusive” to Caucasian farmers?

i've noticed you're championing the cause of "hypocrisy of the ncaa" quite a bit. and while i agree with you that they are two-faced when it comes to a lot of issues, this one is a stretch. words take over different meanings as time passes. for the "hoosiers" it became a rallying nickname. like the article says, just like hawkeyes, buckeyes, knicks, badgers... etc. i'd imagine you will find zero people who think "hoosiers" is offensive. there are at least some native americans who think the fighting sioux nickname is offensive.

the n-word isn't on the list of hostile and abusive names, so why would cracker be? the word cracker has evolved in the opposite direction of hoosier. cracker was never (or at least very rarely) accepted by white people as a nickname. just because 200 years ago two words were interchangable, doesn't mean they have the same connotation now.

[PCM]

i've noticed you're championing the cause of "hypocrisy of the ncaa" quite a bit. and while i agree with you that they are two-faced when it comes to a lot of issues, this one is a stretch. words take over different meanings as time passes.

The same can be said for the word as "Sioux," which is somehow acceptable when members of certain tribes readily identify themselves as Sioux. But when someone outside the tribe uses the word, the meaning suddenly becomes derogatory.

Given the derogatory origin of the word "hoosier," natives of Indiana could play the same word game if they were so inclined. I believe that was The Sicatoka's point.

Edited October 27, 2006 by PCM

[southpaw]

The same can be said for the word as "Sioux," which is somehow acceptable when members of certain tribes readily identify themselves as Sioux. But when someone outside the tribe uses the word, the meaning suddenly becomes derogatory.

Given the derogatory origin of the word "hoosier," natives of Indiana could play the same word game if they were so inclinced. I believe that was The Sicatoka's point.

and i understand that general idea. but you don't see natives of indiana calling themselves hoosiers. you do see tribes in nd specifically calling themselves sioux.

[PCM]

and i understand that general idea. but you don't see natives of indiana calling themselves hoosiers.

You don't? Did you read the story about Charlotte Westerhaus?

[southpaw]

You don't? Did you read the story about Charlotte Westerhaus?

my bad, i didn't read the lower article. i had wrongly assumed that when she referred to herself as a hoosier, she meant as an alum.

i still think it's a different situation.

[The Sicatoka]

Hoosier and Cracker are synonyms in their origin.

Hear "Hoosier", think "Cracker".

Ms. Westerhaus gets away with "Cracker".

So does Indiana.

Indiana "Hoosiers" is Indiana "Crackers" is Indiana "poor white farmers".

Indiana should be subject to the moniker ban (for its race-based moniker).

[PCM]

i still think it's a different situation.

I think you're completely missing the point.

It's a different situation because even though the word "hoosier" originated as a race-based derogatory term, Indiana natives have turned it into a positive term with which they readily identify.

However, if some Indianans deciced that they were now offended by the University of Indiana calling its athletic teams the "Hoosiers" because of the term's derogatory origin, shouldn't they have just as much right to demand that the university change its name? Would the NCAA back them?

Let me put it another way. I once had a Native American tell me that he opposed UND's nickname because, "They're not Sioux. They're a bunch of white boys playing hockey."

If someone said, "They're not Hoosiers. They're a bunch of black boys playing basketball," that person would rightly be labeled a racist.

The situation is different only because the targets of the original "hoosier" snub chose not to take it that way, chose not to make it race specific (even though it was) and chose not to claim sole ownership based on race.

Edited October 27, 2006 by PCM

[PCM]

So, knowing this:

"In colonial America, the terms cracker and hoosier were widely used to refer to white farmers who did not own slaves or large plantations."

And knowing this:

The presidents and chancellors who serve on the NCAA Executive Committee have adopted a new policy to prohibit NCAA colleges and universities from displaying hostile and abusive racial/ethnic/national origin mascots, nicknames or imagery at any of the 88 NCAA championships. (emphasis added)

How many people have to object to Indiana's "Hoosiers" nickname before the NCAA considers it hostile and abusive? My grandfather was a hoosier. North Dakota's primary industry is agriculture. Therefore, we are a state of hoosiers. Many of us are the descendants of hoosiers. Why should Indiana be allowed to use a nickname that degrades and demeans North Dakotans for the sake of promoting basketball?

I'd like to see the North Dakota Legislature pass a resolution objecting to the University of Indiana's offensive nickname. South Dakota's legislature would probably follow suit. It's time to end the tyranny of the majority and get the anti-Hoosier crusade rolling.

[bincitysioux]

How many people have to object to Indiana's "Hoosiers" nickname before the NCAA considers it hostile and abusive? My grandfather was a hoosier. North Dakota's primary industry is agriculture. Therefore, we are a state of hoosiers. Many of us are the descendants of hoosiers. Why should Indiana be allowed to use a nickname that degrades and demeans North Dakotans for the sake of promoting basketball?

I'd like to see the North Dakota Legislature pass a resolution objecting to the University of Indiana's offensive nickname. South Dakota's legislature would probably follow suit. It's time to end the tyranny of the majority and get the anti-Hoosier crusade rolling.

I thought someone on the Executive Committee said that if just one person is offended, then that is cause for facing the sanctions. Well, as a caucasian ND farmer, I feel abused .

Man with all of white farmers and Native Americans that reside in the state of North Dakota, there are potentially alot of abused people living in this state.

[Gothmog]

C'mon, this is a silly argument and you all know it.

The term "Hoosiers", as currently used, simply does not apply to an racially or ethnically identifiable group of people - it is usually is taken to mean something like "a person from Indiana." In any case, to my knowledge, no group has ever requested that Indiana University stop using the name.

[dakotadan]

it is usually is taken to mean something like "a person from Indiana."

Wouldn't that be an "Indian"?

[PCM]

C'mon, this is a silly argument and you all know it.

Yes, it is silly. I believe that's the point.

[The Sicatoka]

The word was a "not-so-positive" term applied by others to a group of people (of a particular race) from a region. Now that group uses the term to describe themselves!

But am I talking about "Sioux" or "Hoosiers"?

[Gothmog]

Yes, it is silly. I believe that's the point.

Good, I'm glad you agree. I suspect we would probably disagree as to exactly why the argument is "silly". I would contend that it is silly because there's really no analogy to be drawn between IU's use of the nickname "Hoosiers" and UND's use of "Sioux".

Why do you think the argument is "silly"?

[PCM]

Good, I'm glad you agree. I suspect we would probably disagree as to exactly why the argument is "silly". I would contend that it is silly because there's really no analogy to be drawn between IU's use of the nickname "Hoosiers" and UND's use of "Sioux".

There currently isn't a connection between the two nicknames, but there's no reason there couldn't be if people from the potentially offended group chose to make it an issue. Get it?

[Gothmog]

There currently isn't a connection between the two nicknames, but there's no reason there couldn't be if people from the potentially offended group chose to make it an issue. Get it?

Well that's a stretch. In any case, that could be said of ANY nickname that has ever been, or might ever be, connected to a group of people.

The thing about UND's nickname is that there is a real group of people who have, in fact, been expressing opposition to its use for at least 30 years, and that group's connection to that nickname is not in doubt.

GET IT?

[The Sicatoka]

GET IT?

I do. Do you?

Spirit Lake Tribal Resolution A05-01-041 (13 Dec 2000):

" ... as long as something positive comes from this controversy, they (Spirit Lake Tribe) are not opposed to keeping the "Fighting Sioux" name and present Logo at UND"

A continuing, open dialog is a positive, yes?

[Gothmog]

I do. Do you?

Spirit Lake Tribal Resolution A05-01-041 (13 Dec 2000):

A continuing, open dialog is a positive, yes?

C'mon, you know better than that! Are you suggesting that one Sioux tribe's qualified support trumps every other tribe's expressed oppostion!?!?! What about Standing Rock, Wahpeton-Sisseton, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, Yankton, Crow Creek, Cheyenne River and Oglala?

A "continuing, open dialog" is simply not possible until UND admits the legitmacy of the Sioux people's request.

[LeftyZL]

C'mon, you know better than that! Are you suggesting that one Sioux tribe's qualified support trumps every other tribe's expressed oppostion!?!?! What about Standing Rock, Wahpeton-Sisseton, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, Yankton, Crow Creek, Cheyenne River and Oglala?

Isn't that the very same situation Florida State was in? One tribe saying it was ok while others openly voiced their displeasure of FSU's name?

[The Sicatoka]

Are you suggesting that one Sioux tribe's qualified support trumps every other tribe's expressed oppostion!?!?!

Nearest Chippewa tribe (even with the other 4 in Michigan opposed) got Central Michigan a waiver.

Nearest Seminole tribe got Florida State a waiver.

Nearest Ute tribe got Utah its waiver.

Nearest Sioux tribe to UND is Spirit Lake.

PS - Can you point me to the section where any of this "tribal authority" is recognized in NCAA governance?

[Gothmog]

Isn't that the very same situation Florida State was in? One tribe saying it was ok while others openly voiced their displeasure of FSU's name?

No, in that case the tribe that expressed support was the namesake tribe - the Seminoles. All the tribes I listed are "Sioux" tribes.

[The Sicatoka]

At risk of repeating myself:

Nearest Chippewa tribe (even with the other 4 in Michigan opposed) got Central Michigan a waiver.

I really do strongly recommend anyone wishing to debate this take the time to read at least this much:

http://siouxsports.com/tmp/Memorandum-Prel...n-state-crt.pdf

NDSU fans may not want to believe "UND spin", but the North Dakota Attorney General can't walk into court as plaintiff depending on "UND spin" to win (and he ain't going there to lose). Read his briefs to the court. They're the cleanest (least spin) set of facts on this out there.

[LeftyZL]

No, in that case the tribe that expressed support was the namesake tribe - the Seminoles. All the tribes I listed are "Sioux" tribes.

I can't find a link right now, but I'm fairly certain that one of the tribes was a Seminole namesake tribe from Oklohoma. I could be wrong though.

[Gothmog]

Nearest Chippewa tribe (even with the other 4 in Michigan opposed) got Central Michigan a waiver.

Nearest Seminole tribe got Florida State a waiver.

Nearest Ute tribe got Utah its waiver.

Nearest Sioux tribe to UND is Spirit Lake.

PS - Can you point me to the section where any of this "tribal authority" is recognized in NCAA governance?

Well, personally I don't care what exemptions the NCAA may, or may not, have given to other schools.

This issue is ultimately not about UND vs. the NCAA. It is about UND doing what is good and right and honorable. If any group of people asks a public institution to stop using their name and image in a manner that they deem to be offensive, that institution has a moral and ethical responsibility to respect that group's wishes - PERIOD!

That's why this lawsuit is so terribly wrong and wasteful. No matter who wins, the issues will not go away. The tribes I listed, along with nearly every other Native American and civil rights group in the country, will still oppose the nickname. Eventually, UND must and WILL change the name, it's just a matter of how much time, money, and goodwill its leadership is willing to throw away.