Newberry College Indians appeal denied

[YaneA]

follow the link:

http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/pres...errymascot.html

[HockeyMom]

So, out of curiosity.......if Florida State were the Indians instead of the Seminoles.......

I don't think the NCAA would have said the same thing.

[PCM]

It's time once again to update the NCAA standards.

• If any tribe anywhere objects, then you stay on the list.
  
  
• If no namesake tribe objects, then you're off the list (FSU Seminoles).
  
  
• If one namesake tribe approves, then you're off the list (Utah Utes and Central Michigan Chippewa).
  
  
• If one namesake tribe in the state sort of approves, but won't give a definite answer one way or the other, and other namesake tribes inside and outside the state object, then you stay on the list (UND Fighting Sioux).
  
  
• If any American Indians anywhere object, then you stay on the list (Bradley Braves and Newberry College Indians).
  

I hope this clears everything up.

[dagies]

follow the link:

http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_events/pres...errymascot.html

WHOA!

[PCM]

So, out of curiosity.......if Florida State were the Indians instead of the Seminoles.......

I don't think the NCAA would have said the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As it stands now, if a team's nickname refers to a specific tribe, the school can use the name with the tribe's approval. It doesn't matter how many members of that tribe claim to be hurt by this use or how many Native American organizations disagree with the practice. The NCAA doesn't care, even though the standard it quotes in denying the Bradley and Newberry appeals says all members must promote "an atmosphere of respect for and sensitivity to the dignity of every person" (emphasis added).

However, if a team's nickname is related to American Indians in a general way, anyone who generally objects can put an end to that use. In other words, if you're a Semiole in Florida, a Chippewa in Michigan or a Ute in Utah and you burst into tears at the very mention of the local athletic team's nickname, the NCAA says tough luck. But if you're a Sioux in South Dakota and you're depressed because of the Bradley Braves in Illinois, the NCAA will fall all over itself to make you feel better.

Therefore, in some cases, "every person" counts and in other cases, "every person" is ignored. It's really quite simple.

Edited October 25, 2005 by PCM

[HockeyMom]

Therefore, in some cases, "every person" counts and in other cases, "every person" is ignored. It's really quite simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or what school it is and how much power it has.....

The NCAA needs some balls.

[dagies]

I decided I needed to forward this message to Dr. Brand at the NCAA:

Dear Dr. Brand:

I've read the denial of the appeal by Newberry College.  This passage I found of interest:

"While it is true that not all Native Americans are of the same mind with regard to the effect of such nicknames, mascots and imagery, it is far from accurate that any significant portion of the two million individuals who designate themselves as solely Native American favor such use. A preponderance of information gathered over an extended period of time from a wide range of Native Americans (more than 80 tribes and organizations representing all Native Americans) concur that stereotyping of their culture and customs has contributed to a continuation of the hostile or abusive environment in which they have been placed for generations."

I wonder if the opinions of the "rank and file" American Indian is being disregarded in favor of the opinion of tribal leadership?  For instance, there is extensive documented research and polling that shows that a majority of American Indians DO NOT OBJECT to American Indian imagery and nicknames used by sports teams.  Yet the opinions of tribal leadership apparently holds more sway.

PLEASE read this story in the Grand Forks Herald by Doreen Yellow-Bird, a noted nickname opponent.  It shows that tribal leadership does NOT always speak for the people of the tribe. 

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/n...rd/12908457.htm

Here's the pertinent passage:

"The MHA Elders' Organization surveyed tribal members on and off the reservation. More than 70 percent said they wanted a three-branch system of government.

The revised draft constitution, however, proposes a two-branch system - judicial and executive. How could that happen? I asked Danks. His answer: The process of revising the tribe's constitution was taken over by the tribe, and that important item was changed."

Please consider that tribal leadership is likely not representing the people as much as they are speaking their own mind in this issue.  Please do not discount the preponderance of data that shows that a majority of American Indians DO NOT OBJECT to these nicknames and images being used.

I'm certain you have been made aware of the information I am referring to.  If not, I'll be happy to provide links to the information upon request.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[PCM]

Or what school it is and how much power it has.....

The NCAA needs some balls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's true. I would have had much greater respect for the NCAA's high moral principles if it would have declared a blanket ban on the use of American Indian nicknames and stuck to it, no matter what. But this policy of censoring some names and images at certain events while letting others go and saying that UND's logo is hostile and abusive while FSU's dancing Indian mascot isn't simply reeks of favoritism and hypocrisy.

Edited October 25, 2005 by PCM

[PCM]

I wonder if the opinions of the "rank and file" American Indian is being disregarded in favor of the opinion of tribal leadership?

[HockeyMom]

That's true. I would have had much greater respect for the NCAA's high moral principles if it would have declared a blanket ban on the use of American Indian nicknames and stuck to it, no matter what. But this policy of censoring some names and images at certain events while letting others go and saying that UND's logo is hostile and abusive while FSU's dancing Indian mascot isn't simply reeks of favoritism and hypocrisy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both of our quotes mean the same thing, you just describe it a little better than I can.

[dagies]

While I understand your point, I doubt that it will have much influence on Brand or the NCAA. I don't think the NCAA can simply ignore the votes of tribal governments and American Indian organizations because it doesn't know how representative they truly are. Without a scientific poll of each tribe or each organization's membership, there's no way to gauge it one way or the other.

I had no illusions that ANYTHING I said would have any effect on Brand or the NCAA. But sometimes you need to feel that you at least said something.

I think one point would be the Sports Illustrated poll, and the poll done by the university in Pennsylvania that show that the majority polled did not object. To say that there is no significant portion of American Indian population that do not object seems misleading to me. Now, we can argue the semantics of "favor" vs "do not object". And that could be valid.

[Goon]

It's time once again to update the NCAA standards.

• If any tribe anywhere objects, then you stay on the list.
  
  
  
• If no namesake tribe objects, then you're off the list (FSU Seminoles).
  
  
  
• If one namesake tribe approves, then you're off the list (Utah Utes and Central Michigan Chippewa).
  
  
  
• If one namesake tribe in the state sort of approves, but won't give a definite answer one way or the other, and other namesake tribes inside and outside the state object, then you stay on the list (UND Fighting Sioux).
  
  
  
• If any American Indians anywhere object, then you stay on the list (Bradley Braves and Newberry College Indians).
  

I hope this clears everything up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clear as mud.

[Goon]

But this policy of censoring some names and images at certain events while letting others go and saying that UND's logo is hostile and abusive while FSU's dancing Indian mascot isn't simply reeks of favoritism and hypocrisy.

You might even want to say FSU's dancing white guy in an indian mascot suit.

[PCM]

From the Associated Press:

Newberry stands by Indians nickname

Newberry College plans to stick with its Indians nickname even though the NCAA turned down the schools' request to be removed from a list of colleges whose American Indian mascots, logos and nicknames will be banned in postseason play starting next year.

A statement from school president Mick Zais on Wednesday said the school "has no intention of changing its nickname. ... We are disappointed in this unjust, coercive, and perhaps illegal ruling from the NCAA."

The school also said there is overwhelming support by American Indians for the use of the nicknames and mascots.

"We understand that the NCAA may be embarrassed by some schools' use of a mascot or nickname in such a way that stereotypes or demeans a race or group of people," Zais said in a letter to NCAA president Myles Brand. "Newberry College is not one of those schools."

Strong words from Newberry's president.

[PCM]

Here's a link to Newberry College's Web site with information about its response to the NCAA's rejection of its appeal and here's the text of the response:

We stand by our position as articulated in our appeal to the NCAA. The heart of our appeal follows:

[redwing77]

President Zais is wrong. They aren't upset about the use of mascots. They approved FSU's nickname and mascot.

[Goon]

President Zais said, The worst thing that could happen for Native Americans is that their proud history and traditions fade from public awareness to be replaced only by images of casinos and tax-free cigarettes.

[dagies]

From the Associated Press:

Newberry stands by Indians nickname

The playoff and tournament ban shouldn't affect Newberry, Zais said, since the school has uniforms without "what the NCAA deems 'offending' or 'offensive' marks."

Newberry's athletic logos include a red spear and a jagged arrowhead with the letters "NC" connected inside it. A slogan on the school's Web site advises, "Fear the Spear!".......................................

.................Bernard Franklin of the NCAA said Newberry's first argument missed the point "because it values intent over effect," something that was not in the school's scope to judge.

Give me a break. What is it about a spear and an arrowhead that is over the line?

[The Sicatoka]

It's time once again to update the NCAA standards.

• If any tribe anywhere objects, then you stay on the list.
  
  
  
• If no namesake tribe objects, then you're off the list (FSU Seminoles).
  
  
  
• If one namesake tribe approves, then you're off the list (Utah Utes and Central Michigan Chippewa).
  
  
  
• If one namesake tribe in the state sort of approves, but won't give a definite answer one way or the other, and other namesake tribes inside and outside the state object, then you stay on the list (UND Fighting Sioux).
  
  
  
• If any American Indians anywhere object, then you stay on the list (Bradley Braves and Newberry College Indians).
  

I hope this clears everything up.

Is there logic there that I should be able to follow?

Give me a break. What is it about a spear and an arrowhead that is over the line?

Nothing, as long as you're on the side of a Florida State helmet.

(And remember, FSU says "Fear the spear!" also.)

[Goon]

Give me a break. What is it about a spear and an arrowhead that is over the line?

All I know is that if it offends two people in the country its considered hostile and abusive. Hence, it can't be used as an symbol anymore. We wouldn't want to offend anyone.

[dagies]

I decided I needed to forward this message to Dr. Brand at the NCAA: