Outside the Lines

[ESPNInsider]

Yo "ESPN Insider", when ESPN calls you'll lose that handle. It's their trademark.

However, a word in the public domain is a whole other matter.

Controlling which people can use and how they can use words that are clearly public domain (e.g. Sioux Falls and Sioux City) is "probably" a First Amendment issue.

Universities should be standing up for First Amendment protections and rights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See that is where we differ. I know it is their right, but is it the right thing to do? It is my right to burn an american flag, but is it the right thing to do?

I just don't want UND fighting for freedom of speech if the tribes, as a whole, are against the use of the name.

[MafiaMan]

See that is where we differ. I know it is their right, but is it the right thing to do? It is my right to burn an american flag, but is it the right thing to do?

I just don't want UND fighting for freedom of speech if the tribes, as a whole, are against the use of the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with ESPNInsider on this one, folks. I will always love the University of North Dakota, regardless of what the nickname is today or one hundred years from now. However, I do see certain points of view, particularly with Sioux-venirs, H-Sioux-Oh, Sioux-per Shoot-outs, and Sioux-perDogs. It would appear that some on this board want to stuff the Constitution down the throats of people and say "in your face...we can call the team the 'Sioux.' I hardly think that that solution benefits everyone and it certainly would give rise to more groups wanting to 86 the nickname.

President Kupchella and others need to ignore people like GrahamKracker and others like him who will NEVER be convinced that the nickname is ok and focus their efforts on convincing those in middle-ground that there are good reasons why it should stay and good that can come BECAUSE of the nickname.

Right, wrong, good, bad, or indifferent, if the established tribes in North Dakota took an actual democratic vote amongst their people and the end results were 90% enrolled members voting and 80% opposed to the nickname, you wouldn't think "hmnnn...maybe we need to think about this...?" I would.

[CoteauRinkRat]

  I just don't want UND fighting for freedom of speech if the tribes, as a whole, are against the use of the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't disagree more. How come it is all right for a minority group to play the "freedom of speech" card for whatever they feel like, even when they are in the clear minority, but when the majority talks about using it, now we must step back and ask ourselves "is it the right thing to do?"

[ESPNInsider]

[MafiaMan]

[CoteauRinkRat]

I agree with you MafiaMan. I'm not trying to say that I think we should fight the tribes over this and drag everything and everyone in the mud, I just get frustrated by your point that his country seems to cater to the minority more and more.

[MafiaMan]

I agree with you MafiaMan.  I'm not trying to say that I think we should fight the tribes over this and drag everything and everyone in the mud, I just get frustrated by your point that his country seems to cater to the minority more and more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with ya there. Twice in the past week, I've driven by a woman driving a car with a bumper sticker reading "YOU CAN NO MORE WIN A WAR THAN YOU CAN WIN AN EARTHQUAKE." I pulled up along side of her the second time I saw her, rolled down my window, and yelled this out: "IT'S A GOOD THING WE WON WORLD WAR TWO OTHERWISE YOUR BUMPER STICKER WOULD BE WRITTEN IN GERMAN!". Some people just don't get it.

Anyways, I guess my point isn't to go about saying "bring it on" and head to the court system to settle this. I still think support can be drummed up at the local level with the people in North Dakota's tribes.

[MafiaMan]

I still think support can be drummed up at the local level with the people in North Dakota's tribes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Before I get called a racist with my "drummed up" comment...pun NOT intended.

[The Sicatoka]

See that is where we differ. I know it is their right, but is it the right thing to do? It is my right to burn an american flag, but is it the right thing to do?

I just don't want UND fighting for freedom of speech if the tribes, as a whole, are against the use of the name.

If it went to court and UND won, would UND keep the name?

That would be the ultimate victory --> we defended the principle, we were right on principle, and now we'll choose whatever we want.

Welcome to true freedom.

This isn't about "Fighting Sioux", this is about "First Amendment".

[ScottM]

I'm with ya there. Twice in the past week, I've driven by a woman driving a car with a bumper sticker reading "YOU CAN NO MORE WIN A WAR THAN YOU CAN WIN AN EARTHQUAKE." I pulled up along side of her the second time I saw her, rolled down my window, and yelled this out: "IT'S A GOOD THING WE WON WORLD WAR TWO OTHERWISE YOUR BUMPER STICKER WOULD BE WRITTEN IN GERMAN!". Some people just don't get it.

Maybe she doesn't understand German?

[ESPNInsider]

If it went to court and UND won, would UND keep the name?

That would be the ultimate victory --> we defended the principle, we were right on principle, and now we'll choose whatever we want.

Welcome to true freedom.

This isn't about "Fighting Sioux", this is about "First Amendment".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would UND go to court and spend all that money if they weren't going to keep the name?

and I totally disagree with you. I think that the school is much classier then to fight with the first amendmant if the tribes show that they are, as a whole, against it.

[Brent_Bobyck]

No, you never said they shouldn't respect the tribes, but you did bash my post saying that they should. That is what I've been saying the whole time. That IF the tribes show that their people don't want it, then UND should not fight it. So do you agree with me then? Or do you disagree. You are the one spinning, spinning on what you think!

If you would re-read my first post you would realize that you were bashing it for the wrong reasons. Reasons I think you probably agree with. Then again, I'm not sure where you'll stand tomorrow

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I bashed your first post because you said that UND should give up if the tribes don't want the nickname. That is what I disagreed with. Nothing about respecting Native Americans. Just because you disagree with them on the nickname issue doesn't mean you don't respect them.

My opinion on this has never changed, the more I thought about it the more I wanted UND to keep on truckin on. Yes, I was more in the middle when the ruling came out but the more I thought about it, the more I backed a fight against the NCAA ruling. I was not on one side and then the other. You can say that my opinion has changed from day to day but it has not.

[ESPNInsider]

I bashed your first post because you said that UND should give up if the tribes don't want the nickname. That is what I disagreed with. Nothing about respecting Native Americans. Just because you disagree with them on the nickname issue doesn't mean you don't respect them.

My opinion on this has never changed, the more I thought about it the more I wanted UND to keep on truckin on. Yes, I was more in the middle when the ruling came out but the more I thought about it, the more I backed a fight against the NCAA ruling. I was not on one side and then the other. You can say that my opinion has changed from day to day but it has not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if the tribes prove that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name you want UND to still fight to use it. That would be respecting, or not respecting wouldn't it?

[oldralph]

So if the tribes prove that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name you want UND to still fight to use it. That would be respecting, or not respecting wouldn't it?

i.e. You ask me to remove part of a post about you. Either I respect that and do it, or I don't respect that and leave it on there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you guys exchange addresses already so you can bicker in private!

[The Sicatoka]

Why would UND go to court and spend all that money if they weren't going to keep the name?

and I totally disagree with you. I think that the school is much classier then to fight with the first amendmant if the tribes show that they are, as a whole, against it.

The First Amendment is much more important than "Fighting Sioux".

Universities have to have the First Amendment or they have nothing.

That's why fight the fight if it comes to it.

[Brent_Bobyck]

So if the tribes prove that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name you want UND to still fight to use it. That would be respecting, or not respecting wouldn't it?

i.e. You ask me to remove part of a post about you. Either I respect that and do it, or I don't respect that and leave it on there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do not think that a court battle is something that either side wants. At first I was all for everything that UND could do to save it but certain posts from Mafia and ESPN have made me reconsider my stance. I think something gets lost in this argument and that is respecting peoples rights and wishes. Let me say that I still back the nickname but if the tribes vote to not back the nickname, then it might be time to rethink things.

Yes, that is right. ESPNInsider & Mafia. You have made me see the light on this one. I agree with you. If UND loses the support of the tribes as shown by a vote, then you can't really say that it is an honor anymore. I personally thought that UND was trying to honor the Native Americans when they selected the name, and I still think they are, but if the people who are being honored don't see it that way, which I don't think will happen, then you have to rethink your stance.

[Sioux-cia]

I agree with ESPNInsider on this one, folks. I will always love the University of North Dakota, regardless of what the nickname is today or one hundred years from now. However, I do see certain points of view, particularly with Sioux-venirs, H-Sioux-Oh, Sioux-per Shoot-outs, and Sioux-perDogs. It would appear that some on this board want to stuff the Constitution down the throats of people and say "in your face...we can call the team the 'Sioux.' I hardly think that that solution benefits everyone and it certainly would give rise to more groups wanting to 86 the nickname.

President Kupchella and others need to ignore people like GrahamKracker and others like him who will NEVER be convinced that the nickname is ok and focus their efforts on convincing those in middle-ground that there are good reasons why it should stay and good that can come BECAUSE of the nickname.

Right, wrong, good, bad, or indifferent, if the established tribes in North Dakota took an actual democratic vote amongst their people and the end results were 90% enrolled members voting and 80% opposed to the nickname, you wouldn't think "hmnnn...maybe we need to think about this...?" I would.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Careful, MafiaMan, you're starting to sound like a liberal!

[mksioux]

The First Amendment is much more important than "Fighting Sioux".

Universities have to have the First Amendment or they have nothing.

That's why fight the fight if it comes to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sicatoka, please join us in the "Grounds for a Lawsuit" thread because I don't think the First Amendment applies here. I'm interested in your perspective.

[HockeyMom]

Lol, I was just about to say that I was going to seperate those two.

"Don't make me stop this car!"

I say we fight the NCAA in court. Bring it on.

The only thing that I have heard is that the Spirit Lake Nation is going to decide their stance only after they meet with UND.

Hopefully, all goes well and they open a door to a relationship.

[Brent_Bobyck]

Lol, I was just about to say that I was going to seperate those two.

"Don't make me stop this car!"

I say we fight the NCAA in court.  Bring it on.

The only thing that I have heard is that the Spirit Lake Nation is going to decide their stance only after they meet with UND. 

Hopefully, all goes well and they open a door to a relationship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the best thing to come out of this whole situation is that UND and Native American's can come to some sort of agreement here and make peace. There is no good that comes from people taking sides and battling it out in courts, etc.

[Sioux-cia]

[ESPNInsider]

[Brent_Bobyck]

[HockeyMom]

I think the best thing to come out of this whole situation is that UND and Native American's can come to some sort of agreement here and make peace. There is no good that comes from people taking sides and battling it out in courts, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree with you. I took someone to court and a lot of good came out of it, things that will affect people's lives. Going to court isn't always a bad thing.

[Brent_Bobyck]

I disagree with you. I took someone to court and a lot of good came out of it, things that will affect people's lives. Going to court isn't always a bad thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I should've further explained my statement. Sometimes, yes, court is the only way to go and good will come from it. My statements were more geared towards a possible UND v. NCAA lawsuit.