I'm actually not totally against the name change..

[ESPNInsider]

I'm actually not totally against the name change. I just want the shools to do it, if they choose to, for the right reasons.

I hope that just because some people don't like it, some find it offensive, some think it isn't right that they are forced to change the name. If it is determined that by changing the name life will be better, in any way, for the Sioux tribes then I'm all for it. If it is determined that the lives of these people are being hurt, hindered, or made worse in any way, then I'm all for it. But, if this is just for some politically correct people to get their way then it needs to be stopped. I know some will say that "many people" from the tribe feel it is offensive. It should be shown in a vote, or by some other way to prove that most feel this way. A way which is representative of a majority of the entire people.

My feeling, which probably means little to nothing, is that it will not help the tribes to stop the use of the name. As I have said earlier I also think there may be more racism, although not right, if the name is forced to change. I would like to see rules put in place saying that in order to keep the name of a group of people, you have to have both X amount of programs that teach about these people and X amount of dollars spent on those programs, or to those people. The NCAA could really show how much they care for these people by giving them some money. Why not start NCAA sanctioned programs on Indian reservations? Build strong relationships with the kids of these tribes so that they can grow up and maybe be one day proud to dawn the jersey of the Sioux team, which honors his/her relatives. I think that UND SHOULD do more to tighten the bond with these people. There was a great idea brought up a while back about student season ticket holders. Why not, in order to get student tickets, make it a requirement to take a class on the history of the Sioux culture. You could even go one step further and make a class be a general requirement for all students.

These are just my thoughts. Feel free to pick them apart. I hold the right to add to them or subtract some statements as my feelings change, or I learn more on the issue.

[ESPNInsider]

Thinking about it a little more the NCAA could REALLY do something positive with this. Why not have every school have a charity related to their athletic department. UND would have the Sioux nation, while NDSU would have something like Pheasants Forever, but with buffalo. (not sure if there is a buffalo group or not) If that team wins and NCAA championship (or other criteria i.e. making NCAA postseason play) the NCAA would donate a certain amount of money to that charity. This would really help the teams and groups they are named for pull for each other. There could really be some positive stuff to come out of this.

[Brent_Bobyck]

I'm actually not totally against the name change.  I just want the shools to do it, if they choose to, for the right reasons. 

I hope that just because some people don't like it, some find it offensive, some think it isn't right that they are forced to change the name.  If it is determined that by changing the name life will be better, in any way, for the Sioux tribes then I'm all for it.  If it is determined that the lives of these people are being hurt, hindered, or made worse in any way, then I'm all for it.  But, if this is just for some politically correct people to get their way then it needs to be stopped.  I know some will say that "many people" from the tribe feel it is offensive.  It should be shown in a vote, or by some other way to prove that most feel this way.  A way which is representative of a majority of the entire people.

My feeling, which probably means little to nothing, is that it will not help the tribes to stop the use of the name.  As I have said earlier I also think there may be more racism, although not right, if the name is forced to change.  I would like to see rules put in place saying that in order to keep the name of a group of people, you have to have both X amount of programs that teach about these people and X amount of dollars spent on those programs, or to those people.  The NCAA could really show how much they care for these people by giving them some money.  Why not start NCAA sanctioned programs on Indian reservations?  Build strong relationships with the kids of these tribes so that they can grow up and maybe be one day proud to dawn the jersey of the Sioux team, which honors his/her relatives.  I think that UND SHOULD do more to tighten the bond with these people.  There was a great idea brought up a while back about student season ticket holders.  Why not, in order to get student tickets, make it a requirement to take a class on the history of the Sioux culture.  You could even go one step further and make a class be a general requirement for all students. 

These are just my thoughts.  Feel free to pick them apart.  I hold the right to add to them or subtract some statements as my feelings change, or I learn more on the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although I agree with some statements you make about the Sioux name change, I disagree with more.

Make all student season ticket holders take a class? Come on. So you are going to make the students spend $75 dollars on tickets then make them take a class on top of that? I am unaware of what a credit hour costs at UND now but I am assuming that a class like that would be 3 hours. For the sake of argument, you add $300 to tuition just so you can catch the hockey team in action? PLUS, if you are forced to take an Indian Studies class, that adds to your workload during the semester you take it OR pushes another class that goes toward your major back a semester. This prolongs your graduation time. This idea, although good intentions, is not a good one.

Secondly, I believe UND does more than enough to strengthen the bond between them and the Sioux Nation. If I understand correctly, the native americans receive free schooling or a big discount? If I am wrong on this please correct me. If not, a free college education is enough in my eyes to stregthen the bond.

I am undecided on this issue because I can see both sides. Obviously this issue is not going to go away. In fact just the opposite. Why not make it easier on the school, the athletic dept., etc and change the name. Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes. Don't get me wrong I would like to see the name stay but if keeping the name means not getting football playoffs, hockey regionals, etc, then I say we bring back the "flickertails".

I think a bigger issue aside from changing the name is the amount of money it is going to take to change uniforms, signage, etc etc etc in and around campus. REA alone is easily a few million dollars to take out all the Sioux Heads.

It will be interesting to see how this thing plays out but I would not want to be Pres. Cupchella (sp?)

[ESPNInsider]

Although I agree with some statements you make about the Sioux name change, I disagree with more.

Make all student season ticket holders take a class? Come on. So you are going to make the students spend $75 dollars on tickets then make them take a class on top of that? I am unaware of what a credit hour costs at UND now but I am assuming that a class like that would be 3 hours. For the sake of argument, you add $300 to tuition just so you can catch the hockey team in action? PLUS, if you are forced to take an Indian Studies class, that adds to your workload during the semester you take it OR pushes another class that goes toward your major back a semester. This prolongs your graduation time. This idea, although good intentions, is not a good one.

Secondly, I believe UND does more than enough to strengthen the bond between them and the Sioux Nation. If I understand correctly, the native americans receive free schooling or a big discount? If I am wrong on this please correct me. If not, a free college education is enough in my eyes to stregthen the bond.

I am undecided on this issue because I can see both sides. Obviously this issue is not going to go away. In fact just the opposite. Why not make it easier on the school, the athletic dept., etc and change the name. Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes. Don't get me wrong I would like to see the name stay but if keeping the name means not getting football playoffs, hockey regionals, etc, then I say we bring back the "flickertails".

I think a bigger issue aside from changing the name is the amount of money it is going to take to change uniforms, signage, etc etc etc in and around campus. REA alone is easily a few million dollars to take out all the Sioux Heads.

It will be interesting to see how this thing plays out but I would not want to be Pres. Cupchella (sp?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I say they should make all student ticket holders take a class, it was brought up in another thread and was a great idea. A short 1 or 2 hour class with a quick overview of the Sioux culture. Not a 3 credit class. Your argument about cost of the credit doesn't have any truth as you have to be a full time student to get season tix and if you are a full time student you don't pay more for taking more credits. As for taking the class as part of the general requirements it would not take you longer to graduate, as you would be taking this course instead of taking say Geology.

They do not receive free schooling. That has always been a myth.

I agree that if it will cost UND the chance to host playoffs then the name change will be harder to fight.

As for the money situation, I wonder if fans will go out and buy a bunch of Flickertail gear or if they will then stand fast and want to wear their Sioux stuff? I would hope after the decision is made, either way, that UND fans would still support the school and its athletic teams.

And finally, it's Kupchella. And I don't think he'll have much to do with it as the Board of Higher Education kind of took that out of his hands.

[Diggler]

Your argument about cost of the credit doesn't have any truth as you have to be a full time student to get season tix

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No you don't. Believe me. One credit gets you tickets.

Taking a class wouldn't be a bad thing. Only thing I wonder is how you make sure students go to the class. What about students who can't make the class, etc.?

[Brent_Bobyck]

When I say they should make all student ticket holders take a class, it was brought up in another thread and was a great idea. A short 1 or 2 hour class with a quick overview of the Sioux culture. Not a 3 credit class. Your argument about cost of the credit doesn't have any truth as you have to be a full time student to get season tix and if you are a full time student you don't pay more for taking more credits. As for taking the class as part of the general requirements it would not take you longer to graduate, as you would be taking this course instead of taking say Geology.

They do not receive free schooling. That has always been a myth.

I agree that if it will cost UND the chance to host playoffs then the name change will be harder to fight.

As for the money situation, I wonder if fans will go out and buy a bunch of Flickertail gear or if they will then stand fast and want to wear their Sioux stuff? I would hope after the decision is made, either way, that UND fans would still support the school and its athletic teams.

And finally, it's Kupchella. And I don't think he'll have much to do with it as the Board of Higher Education kind of took that out of his hands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK you might be right about the credit hour thing, etc but you can not convince me that if you force students to go to a 1 or 2 hour class that they will soak in the information and come out of the classroom with a totally new outlook about the native americans and they will go to the ends of the earth to not disrespect them, directly or indirectly. Again, good thoughts about doing the class but it will not serve its purpose.

Being not to removed from college myself, you will see students sleeping, playing with their cell phones, etc. The majority will sit through it and not pay attention. And if you make they pass a test or they won't get tickets I think that is going way to far! I think what they are currently doing is fine with me. I do not see any disrespect of the name or their culture going on.

[ESPNInsider]

Then why make them go to class to get their degrees? If no one is learning anything then why are we making kids go to class?

You can't force them to learn, but you can put them in an environment where the knowledge is available.

I'm certainly not saying this will be the cure all for anything anti-native american, but it sure would be a nice step in the right direction.

As for students not being able to make the class, you could offer it on a few different days. If you want tix, you better make sure you can make it once!

[PCM]

ESPNInsider, I once thought as you did. In the fall of 2001, I believed that changing the name would be the fastest way for UND to put this whole mess behind it and move on to far more important issues. And believe me, there are far more important issues facing UND.

But then two things happened. The first was listening to Minnepolis Star-Tribune columnist Nick Coleman on Scott Hennen's Hot Talk radio show just before the new REA opened. Coleman, a true hater of Ralph Englestad and rabid opponent of the Sioux nickname, was hostile, insulting, abbrasive and abusive. Coleman wouldn't let Hennen say a word on his own show. He talked over him and shouted him down for the full 10 or so minutes he was on the air. And for those who know Hennen, that's quite a feat.

It wasn't just Coleman's manner that made me angry, it was what he said about UND, Grand Forks and North Dakota. He claimed we were a bunch of backwards, racist hicks. The rest of the country laughed at us. We were an embarrassment to the nation. What made me even more angry than that was when he said that he and his fellow journalists were going to see to it that the new REA failed and that Grand Forks never saw one dime of economic benefit from it. How's that for objective journalism?

Listening to Coleman made me angry and depressed. What if he was right? Everyone and everything seemed to be against us. But then a ray of hope arrived in the form of the Sports Illustrated survey saying that a large majority of American Indians had no problem with sports teams using Native American names. And an even larger percentage of the American public agreed.

Suddenly I realized that everything Coleman said was a sham. He wasn't representative of the majority, and neither were the acitivists demanding that UND change its name. A minority of a minority was attempting to bully the majority into giving up its right to free expression. That's when I decided that as a matter of principle, there was no way I could support dropping the Fighting Sioux moniker.

Today, the NCAA is finding out just how many Americans disagree with its approach to this issue. We've constantly been told that UND must drop the Sioux name to avoid negative PR. Well, who's getting the bad PR now?

[ESPNInsider]

PCM, I do not think that they should give it up. I think that there should be plenty of research done. I think maybe you are confusing Bobyck's posts with mine.

Although I do think there may be some circumstances which would cause me to feel they should change it. I just think UND should do more with the name and the relationship with the Sioux people.

[PCM]

PCM, I do not think that they should give it up. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I understand your point. Although my reasons for going along with a potential name change weren't the same as yours, at one time, I could see a way to justify doing it. Events have since convinced me otherwise. That's all I'm saying.

[ESPNInsider]

[Brent_Bobyck]

Then why make them go to class to get their degrees?  If no one is learning anything then why are we making kids go to class? 

You can't force them to learn, but you can put them in an environment where the knowledge is available.

I'm certainly not saying this will be the cure all for anything anti-native american, but it sure would be a nice step in the right direction.

As for students not being able to make the class, you could offer it on a few different days.  If you want tix, you better make sure you can make it once!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Going to class to get a degree is one thing and going to a one hour class on native americans just to get hockey tickets is another. You can't really compare the two.

People go to college because they want to be there. They want to get a degree. A college degree and season hockey tickets are not the same. That argument holds no water. The intent is good and all but it will not work. The students already have assigned seats and they sign a form stating that they can have their tickets removed if they act inappropriately. That is more than enough. This is college, not preschool. You can not tell me that the students would embrace this idea and learn from it. The majority of students anyway. You must think logically.

Aside from that. Think of all the time and money put into teaching this class simply to help keep the name "Fighting Sioux" on the jerseys and t-shirts. Again, I want to see the name stay. But you and I both know that it is a losing battle, no matter if it is only the minority that want to see it change. The NCAA will not back down from this. They are known for making ground breaking decisions and sticking to them. They always take the lead on Political Correctness.

I am sorry to say that the name will change. It might survive this wave, but it can not go on forever. Unfortunately.

[Sioux-per Villain]

Anyone have information about what was in Ralph's will and specifics surrounding ownership of the REA? As passionate as Ralph was about the nickname, one would think he'd punish a name change from the grave with regards to that facility.

[PCM]

I know this wouldn't be the easiest thing to do, but I think if you offered the tribal leaders their choice:  Would you rather we not allow these names...or.....would you like to get involved in some programs where you will benefit and so will the schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From my perspective, this is already being done. It's the primary reason why UND has so many more American Indian students and Indian-related programs than NDSU, SDSU or USD. The Sioux name provides a powerful incentive for the university to pursue and create programs and opportunities for American Indian students. That's not to say that UND couldn't do more of this or do it better, but my sense is that UND does a far better job at it than most universities in states with significant American Indian populations.

[ESPNInsider]

[ecbrevik]

As for taking the class as part of the general requirements it would not take you longer to graduate, as you would be taking this course instead of taking say Geology. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have to match up like classes. American Indian studies would be a humanities class, Geology is a science class. You could replace a humanities with your idea, but not a science.

Apples to apples here.

[Sioux-cia]

No you don't. Believe me. One credit gets you tickets.

Taking a class wouldn't be a bad thing. Only thing I wonder is how you make sure students go to the class. What about students who can't make the class, etc.?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've read so many articles re the name change that my brain is getting fussy. But I believe that one of the schools with an Indian name, I think it was Michigan or maybe Florida, has their athletes take a class with a Native American instructor. He teaches them about that tribes history, etc. I'm not saying our athletes should take such a course because I honestly believe that our athletes respect the name and would never treat the name in any manner remotely 'hostile or abusive'.

[ESPNInsider]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I've read so many articles re the name change that my brain is getting fussy. But I believe that one of the schools with an Indian name, I think it was Michigan or maybe Florida, has their athletes take a class with a Native American instructor. He teaches them about that tribes history, etc. I'm not saying our athletes should take such a course because I honestly believe that our athletes respect the name and would never treat the name in any manner remotely 'hostile or abusive'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the beginning of the year, I'm almost positive that the captains from each team are involved in a similar program. Not 100% sure though.

[Brent_Bobyck]

At the beginning of the year, I'm almost positive that the captains from each team are involved in a similar program. Not 100% sure though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you know ESPNInsider? Your name is "Insider" but you are dumber than a box of rocks. You stink!

[Siouxman]

I see an opportunity here that I can't believe some marketing student hasn't jumped on.

I think that the Sioux tribes should get together themselves and with the UND hierarchy to consider the following: The "official" Sioux tribes should certainly be able to put together a package that involves licensing the right to use "Sioux" by UND. The license would involve an annual payment to the Sioux tribes, as well as a percentage of all revenues received from the sale of merchandise with an official Sioux logo on it. The tribes would be involved in the approval of any logos, which would be trademarked. Any non-UND sales of Sioux items with the logo would have to be licensed (such as Home of Economy, Scheels, etc.).

With the revenues received, the tribes can do any number of things to support their nations such as college scholarships, economic development, affordable housing, etc. They would be able to ensure that logos, emblems, etc. are not displayed, assembled, or used in a many that they consider demeaning or derogatory.

Everybody wins, except of course the NCAA monarchists. The tribes receive economic benefit, use of the Sioux name and logos has tribal approval, UND fans and alumni are happy. The only other possible unhappy individuals are those that truly feel such an arrangement is still demeaning to them.

Based on comments that I have heard and seen, Sioux fans should surely be willing to cough up a few more bucks to maintain the UND history and name. I can certainly see some merit in an effort to remove the word "Fighting" from the name. Even though I believe it is out of respect for the courage and resourcefulness of Sioux Warriors, others view it as labeling the Sioux as a nation that lived on war and fighting.

I think that the idea of a mandatory class for everyone (not just ticketholders) deserves some consideration. Simply have it count as part of the humanities requirement. Then there isn't any additional cost to anyone, and the native heritage of ND is spread.

Is this too wacky of a concept?

[ESPNInsider]

What do you know ESPNInsider? Your name is "Insider" but you are dumber than a box of rocks. You stink!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why because I've foiled each and every one of your stupid quotes? "they'll be playing with cell phones" "kids will never listen"

Contrary to what you think there are a lot of people who would embrace the idea of learning more about the Sioux people. If it was mandatory to take a class to get tickets, believe me, the students would take it. You must not have attended UND if you didn't realize that. The students at UND are crazy for their hockey. They would definately take a 2 hour class in order to get tix.

If you don't think that we should learn more about the Sioux people or try to help them out then I guess that is your choice. I just don't see the point in having a single winner when both sides could come out on top. UND is one of the top schools in the nation as far as Indian studies and programs go, why not take that to the next level with the athletic department? I think it should at least be a possibility.

If you're so smart, tell me why it would not be a great idea to give them this option: UND keeps its name and Coach Lennon and 4 or 5 guys go to the reservation and put on a football camp each summer? Coach Glas and a few players go and put on a basketball camp each year? Sure, it may cost the University a couple thousand dollars, but I think that it would be well worth it. You get these kids, many of whom would not have the chance to attend a regular UND camp, a chance to learn from UND coaches and players. This could really build a tremendous relationship with these kids that could possibly build to something in the future. In the meantime UND fans are happy that they get to keep the name. There would also have to be more programs set up I'm sure, but why not? Don't tell me that it would cost too much. Just give them the option. If they still felt it better that the school drop the name then that's fine, that's what would have to be done. I just hope that dropping the name will help the Sioux people rather then hurt them.

[ESPNInsider]

I see an opportunity here that I can't believe some marketing student hasn't jumped on.

I think that the Sioux tribes should get together themselves and with the UND hierarchy to consider the following:  The "official" Sioux tribes should certainly be able to put together a package that involves licensing the right to use "Sioux" by UND.  The license would involve an annual payment to the Sioux tribes, as well as a percentage of all revenues received from the sale of merchandise with an official Sioux logo on it.  The tribes would be involved in the approval of any logos, which would be trademarked.  Any non-UND sales of Sioux items with the logo would have to be licensed (such as Home of Economy, Scheels, etc.).

With the revenues received, the tribes can do any number of things to support their nations such as college scholarships, economic development, affordable housing, etc.  They would be able to ensure that logos, emblems, etc. are not displayed, assembled, or used in a many that they consider demeaning or derogatory.

Everybody wins, except of course the NCAA monarchists.  The tribes receive economic benefit, use of the Sioux name and logos has tribal approval, UND fans and alumni are happy.  The only other possible unhappy individuals are those that truly feel such an arrangement is still demeaning to them.

Based on comments that I have heard and seen, Sioux fans should surely be willing to cough up a few more bucks to maintain the UND history and name.  I can certainly see some merit in an effort to remove the word "Fighting" from the name.  Even though I believe it is out of respect for the courage and resourcefulness of Sioux Warriors, others view it as labeling the Sioux as a nation that lived on war and fighting.

I think that the idea of a mandatory class for everyone (not just ticketholders) deserves some consideration.  Simply have it count as part of the humanities requirement.  Then there isn't any additional cost to anyone, and the native heritage of ND is spread.

Is this too wacky of a concept?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great ideas! This is exactly what I am proposing. That instead of just dropping the name, why not look at ways to help everyone. Why not make it a stronger relationship between the school and the tribe. It helps UND: keep the name and become far and away the top Native American school in the country and a strong relationship with the tribe and its people. And it helps the Sioux tribes: money, programs, and a strong relationship with the school.

And I don't think that your idea is too wacky at all. I mean people already spend 60-70 bucks on a seatshirt, what's 65?

[PCM]

I see an opportunity here that I can't believe some marketing student hasn't jumped on.

I think that the Sioux tribes should get together themselves and with the UND hierarchy to consider the following:  The "official" Sioux tribes should certainly be able to put together a package that involves licensing the right to use "Sioux" by UND.  The license would involve an annual payment to the Sioux tribes, as well as a percentage of all revenues received from the sale of merchandise with an official Sioux logo on it.  The tribes would be involved in the approval of any logos, which would be trademarked. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's a great idea, one that might have helped UND avoid its current problems with the NCAA if it had been done long ago. But for all I know, the idea has been advanced and the tribal leaders said they weren't interested.

The reason I emphasize "might" is because when I look at Florida State's situation, having the blessing of the Seminole tribe in Florida made absolutely no difference to the NCAA. But I do think your idea would help mute the criticism from those who say that UND is wrong to make money from the Sioux name without giving a cut to the tribes. It seems only fair to me.

[Brent_Bobyck]

Why because I've foiled each and every one of your stupid quotes? "they'll be playing with cell phones" "kids will never listen"

Contrary to what you think there are a lot of people who would embrace the idea of learning more about the Sioux people. If it was mandatory to take a class to get tickets, believe me, the students would take it. You must not have attended UND if you didn't realize that. The students at UND are crazy for their hockey. They would definately take a 2 hour class in order to get tix.

If you don't think that we should learn more about the Sioux people or try to help them out then I guess that is your choice. I just don't see the point in having a single winner when both sides could come out on top. UND is one of the top schools in the nation as far as Indian studies and programs go, why not take that to the next level with the athletic department? I think it should at least be a possibility.

If you're so smart, tell me why it would not be a great idea to give them this option: UND keeps its name and Coach Lennon and 4 or 5 guys go to the reservation and put on a football camp each summer? Coach Glas and a few players go and put on a basketball camp each year? Sure, it may cost the University a couple thousand dollars, but I think that it would be well worth it. You get these kids, many of whom would not have the chance to attend a regular UND camp, a chance to learn from UND coaches and players. This could really build a tremendous relationship with these kids that could possibly build to something in the future. In the meantime UND fans are happy that they get to keep the name. There would also have to be more programs set up I'm sure, but why not? Don't tell me that it would cost too much. Just give them the option. If they still felt it better that the school drop the name then that's fine, that's what would have to be done. I just hope that dropping the name will help the Sioux people rather then hurt them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your ideas, although good intentions are there, are not feasible. In my opinion UND does enough to help Native Americans by helping them get a college education. They are given scholarships to help with tuition, etc. The NCAA has no reason to hold these camps. Sure it would be a great PR move but they do not need to do this. They are not in the business of charity work. They are in the business of conducting collegiate athletics, and conducting them in such a way that they seem fit. Obviously they don't think that Native American nicknames in the postseason is a good idea. The reason they limit this to the postseason is probably because the postseason is on a grander scale, i.e. ESPN etc.

It is simple, drop the name or don't. But no charity work needs to be done simply to keep a nickname on a jersey or sweatshirt.

[ESPNInsider]

Your ideas, although good intentions are there, are not feasible. In my opinion UND does enough to help Native Americans by helping them get a college education. They are given scholarships to help with tuition, etc. The NCAA has no reason to hold these camps. Sure it would be a great PR move but they do not need to do this. They are not in the business of charity work. They are in the business of conducting collegiate athletics, and conducting them in such a way that they seem fit. Obviously they don't think that Native American nicknames in the postseason is a good idea. The reason they limit this to the postseason is probably because the postseason is on a grander scale, i.e. ESPN etc.

It is simple, drop the name or don't. But no charity work needs to be done simply to keep a nickname on a jersey or sweatshirt.

Why not? You obviously don't have a much care for the Sioux nickname. Well, there are many thousands of people who obviously care about it very much. You keep jumping around my question. Why not benefit both? A little compromise by each with a large benefit to both? You seem to only want a clear "winner" while I believe we don't need one. Doesn't seem very smart to me.