Brookings Register Article - SDSU

[JBB]

Once they announce their intention they will enter the provisional year. I think its unlikely that any news on conference affiliation will be solidified before that for either SDSU or NDSU.

I believe NDSU is meeting with the Big Sky this month. This is the official introduction of NDSU to the conference.

Chatter on other boards indicates a strong likelyhood that NDSU and SDSU would be accepted into the Big Sky. They want to have 10 schools and now only have 8. The 2 Dakota Schools would be convenient travel partners and both the Dakota Schools have long histories of competition with many of the BSC members.

Right now they may be holding back. Idaho may not be able to survive in D1 football because of the new NCAA regulations. Of course this is still several years out. But, if they couldnt make it the BSC would like to have them back. That may mean that situation would have to resolve itself before 2 more schools would be admitted. But, they are certainly in a position to admit 1.

The BSC is a good choice. The travel includes the West Coast, Az, Utah, Idaho and Montana. This would be a nice change for our recruits and I see it as a big plus. Apparently Davis will remain on the NDSU schedule for the next several years and I dont think our players mind a bit.

[The Sicatoka]

Once they announce their intention they will enter the provisional year. I think its unlikely that any news on conference affiliation will be solidified before that for either SDSU or NDSU.

I believe NDSU is meeting with the Big Sky this month. This is the official introduction of NDSU to the conference.

Chatter on other boards indicates a strong likelyhood that NDSU and SDSU would be accepted into the Big Sky. They want to have 10 schools and now only have 8. The 2 Dakota Schools would be convenient travel partners and both the Dakota Schools have long histories of competition with many of the BSC members.

Right now they may be holding back. Idaho may not be able to survive in D1 football because of the new NCAA regulations. Of course this is still several years out. But, if they couldnt make it the BSC would like to have them back. That may mean that situation would have to resolve itself before 2 more schools would be admitted. But, they are certainly in a position to admit 1.

The BSC is a good choice. The travel includes the West Coast, Az, Utah, Idaho and Montana. This would be a nice change for our recruits and I see it as a big plus. Apparently Davis will remain on the NDSU schedule for the next several years and I dont think our players mind a bit.

SDSU may announce that their intention is to stay at DII. Wasn't it you, JBB, that said on another board that after seeing SDSU's finacial situation that you weren't so sure any more of them moving up? How do you see that possibility affect NDSU if at all?

I thought NDSU was due to present information to BSC in October. Did that move to November?

The BSC publicly stated position (not officially looking to add) hasn't changed recently, has it, or did I miss it?

I'll agree wholeheartedly with you on one point: The Big Sky is probably going to wait on any moves until the 2004 NCAA meetings where they look at all the requirements for status in a Division. There are some IAs that are likely to be forced down to IAA due to the "game attendance" requirements (Idaho, Western Michigan, and a handful of others). Idaho could end up needing a new home after that and I'd be willing to bet that Big Sky would love to re-add them to the middle of their geography.

[pirate]

I believe it was in either '98 or '99,NDSU hosted representatives from all NCC schools as well as from the Big Sky conference. At that time, the Big Sky reps shared their story detailing hopes plans and struggles regarding their league. It was at this forum that the BSC first stated their intent to NOT look at eastward expansion. A major reason being that since 1987, the North Dakota schools do not receive any state funds for inter-collegiate athletics. Montana, apparently, gives a substantial stipend to it's two BSC schools to help fund inter-collegiate athletic programs. I would see the BSC as gladley opening it's doors if the North Dakota legislature would "co-sign" for 2M per year+++ .

[purplemavfan]

I was wondering if anyone heard anything about the statewide meetings that SDSU is holding on the division I subject; i.e., in Yankton Rapid City, etc. Essentially, what reactions were gathered from those in attendance. I wish the Jacks well if they make their move, but it will be tough to support a lot of sports at that level I think. Too bad the NCC could not have moved up as a group, but hockey at the Mn. schools has turned out to be a very expensive proposition, especially when the gender equity factor ( the necessity of having a women's team as well, as that level) is factored in. I don't believe this aspect was every really explained when MSU announced for d-1 hockey back in the mid-90's.

[SDSUFAN]

Purplemav:

I dont know what the precise reaction has been, but by and large there is skeptism and maybe rightfully so. What the AD and President at SDSU are looking at in what appears as a risky move is the the long term affects on athletic programs. Fred for some time has been concerned with the changing membership in Division 2 with new members coming that barely have any program and now wanting to be on the same level as the NCC which they can not do instantly. All members of D2 have a vote at the NCAA convention, where football scholarships could be cut from 36 to 30 or even 20, even if they dont offer the sport. The current NCC, Gulf South and MIAA have supported keeping the current level, but the next time this comes up they will be out voted by the new members.

Moving to D1 does not mean instant competition with Duke or even U of Minnesota. The competition is with the lower tier, programs, some who overall are not even D2 but have gone D1 for the basketball revenue. SDSU is really in between a rock and hard place.

Reaction has been pretty much as described in the Argus Leader and the Brookings Register.

If SDSU Foundation can raise in the excess of 50 million for other purpose, such building additions, academic scholarships etc, I would think we could also do a lesser amount for athletics. Most of the Foundation board members seem to see the positives here so I am optimistic that the extra money will be raised some how. So much of the foundation activities are not openly discussed or covered by the media, so its hard to tell exactly what is going on. SDSU has gotten less and less state support so the foundation has become a big way of getting things done on campus.

My understanding that no money from this move will come from the legislature. Janklow allowed the Legislature appropriate 4 million of the tobacco settlement money go towards the new dome roof at USD, so they owe SDSU some how but judging from the Board of Regents reaction, now is not a big time to make this an issue.

[JBB]

The problem with D2 is exemplified when you consider suitable replacements for the schools that are leaving. So far you have UMD. After that the list gets kind of thin. The idea that schools are breaking down the door to get in is not what's happening at all. Its just as likely the NCC dies rather than grows. UMD moved in because they are D1 hockey.

The future of the NCC is D1 hockey and D2 in what ever shape or form you might find it. I think in the future, especially with NDSU, SDSU and UNC gone, the NCC will support most cost saving measures proposed to D2 including scholarship cuts. Even if those schools stayed the NCC would probably support those changes because the coalition of hockey schools has the majority voice. At any rate D2 is headed in the wrong direction and the NCC schools that stand to lose are UNC, NDSU and SDSU. USD just doesn't have the resources to consider changing their position and may very well go the way of Morningside.

NDSU, and in my opinion SDSU, have no choice but go D1. Staying D2 is a not a winning strategy for a growing University. SDSU fan explained a lot of that. If they add hockey they have all the same problems they have with D1 football and basketball, mainly no conference. Then they have to build an arena. Also, the visibility that D1 hockey/D2 or D3 in other sports provides has been questioned heavily by others, especially if D2 downgrades.

A full slate of D1 sports is by far the better option for any school wishing for the D1 benefit. I think SDSU is in the same position as NDSU and has to make the move even with the extra risk and the grass roots opposition. I believe that opposition will quickly dissipate once the leadership makes the move. It has in Fargo.

I thought a discussion on another board was very interesting. Several Gopher fans piped in putting down a sue soxer saying the biggest Gopher rivalries in hockey were the Minnesota Schools and Wisconsin, not north dakota. The grandeur of the hockey deal may be in the eyes of the beholder and more local than you think.

The ace in the hole for NDSU is Dr. Champman. He comes from the BSC and may know some things about its future plans that are not generally known. But, from those of us that see the move as positive the conference issue does not seem to be the big thing that it is for those people that are critical of the move. NDSU, SDSU and UNC are going to find affiliation.

[jimdahl]

Moving to D1 does not mean instant competition with Duke or even U of Minnesota.  The competition is with the lower tier, programs, some who overall are not even D2 but have gone D1 for the basketball revenue. SDSU is really in between a rock and hard place.

That's one of the biggest the problem I see for UND. Moving would involve replacing traditional rivals with relatively equally skilled but unknown-to-fans rivals in I-AA. Yet somehow the move is supposed to bring about an increase in revenue, also? Right now if you look across the country, the only real difference between the bottom of D-IAA and the top of D-II is geography. High-end D-II schools tend to be in pockets of D-II (like the Dakotas) where there aren't enough D-IAA opponents to make it economical.

The big question is if D2 will really deteriorate to the extent many are predicting. I guarantee that if D2 actually does lower football scholarship limits, then all of the fence-sitters like UND will have to become serious fast. Fortunately, as more schools in the area go D-IAA, it becomes easier and cheaper for all. There's definitely a network effect.

[Riverman]

[Northern Iowa]

Can someone please post here the link to the BSC forum you're talking about?

Thanks

NI

[JBB]

I dare you to wear a Sioux hockey jersey to said venues to see the attention that we Fighting Sioux fans "don't" get......

That just tells me your the most disliked, and thats not hard to understand! Apparently the idea that your the greatest rival only extends as far as the grand forks city limit.

Heres one link to a BCS board:

http://bigskyconference.community.everyone...ts/directory.pl

[bancheedog]

Why do people think that D2 will go away? Just because scholarships may go down? I don't think D2 will ever go away, having less scholarship money doesn't mean the talent level will go down.

I believe the PSAC allows only something like 15 full rides in football. The players have to go someone and if each school only had 15 rides the players would still go to the school.

There really are only a few leagues in the country (I believe) that offer 36 full rides. NCC, MIAA, Gulf South, I'm sure there are more. It's basically the have and have nots in D2 football. For someone that is a fan at Southwest State and the NSIC, it's tough to feel sorry for NCC teams that complain they may be cut to 30 or down to 25 rides.

I do know our AD at SSU from what I've heard is for keeping it the way it is. He thinks schools like SSU and others in the NSIC should try to get to 36 full rides instead of cutting. But it just takes time and thankfully that means getting rid of the Morris' of the world.

Another subject...Is the NCC and NSIC going to combine someday? If SDSU, NDSU leave going D1 and Omaha goes to the MIAA.

That leaves UND, SCSU, MSUM, AC, and USD. Along with the 9 schools (including Duluth for now) from the NSIC. A 14 team super conference. I think if that is a possibility, I would drop Crookston and maybe one more to make it 12.

Or.....does the 6 NCC schools (including UM-Duluth) try to add two NSIC teams to make it 8?

The make up of D2 is changing, but when?

p.s.

Thanks for the board, it's great!

[RD17]

The NCC, MIAA, Gulf South, Lone Star, and GLIAC all allow the full 36 scholarships for football, although obviously not everyone within these leagues is fully funded. Other D2 conference limits:

PSAC 25

RMAC 28

SAC 18

NSIC 21

I have no problem with schools that want to join Division II. What I do have a problem with is the leadership of conferences like the NSIC.

When the NSIC moved to Division II in the mid 90s one of the first things they did was submit a proposal at the NCAA convention to drop the scholarship limit to 25 for football.

No one forced the NSIC into Division II- they chose it voluntarily. To expect the established members to be open to downgrading their programs to level the playing field is just plain foolish.

Imagine the reaction from schools like Montana and Georgia Southern if the NCC moved en masse to I-AA and then immediately tried to get the division to lower scholarships so they could be more competitive. The NCC wouldn't be looked upon too favorably.

I think the only way the NSIC and NCC would combine is if all four schools in the Dakotas went to I-AA. Then, like you say, UNO would join the MIAA and St. Cloud, Mankato, and Augustana would be absorbed by the NSIC.

[SDSUFAN]

Staying put in D2 means programs could go backward rather than forward. Football is a prime example. If you can fund 36 and then asked to reduce that level to 21, it makes a big difference in recruiting. I would be willing to bet that a bunch of players on current rosters have made choices based on being offered maybe as little as 500 per year. For example, NSIC school offers 300 per year, a NCC offers 1000 or maybe 1500, a year since they have 36 scholarship. Where is that recruit going to go to play football provided all other things are equal, such as course of study? Money is what talks, and if you can offer even 45 by going to D1AA, what would that do to local recruiting choices and what does it do for the recruiting of school who offers only 15 scholarships? They will lose most of the time. I think most parents want the best offer as putting kids through college is a financial challenge. The NCC may disapppear, but D2 will not, its just that it will have a different membership and programs may not be as competitive as they are now with less scholarship money.

Obviously Butch Raymond SSU AD wants to be competitive and thats why is arguing to keep the current level. He is the exception in the NSIC though. I suppose his long coaching experience in the NCC probably influences his thinking. However, I think when the entire membership votes, Butch would be in the minority and maybe so in the NCIS.

[JBB]

I dont think there is any doubt that the D2 schools will again vote for scholarship reduction. Its happened 2 times in the past. It didnt bring an end to D2 but many of the schools that made the division great moved on.

If SDSU and NDSU join UNC this is a 7 team league. If UNO leaves it is a 6 team league. Even at 7 a new member would have to be found. Its unlikely that Winona will join. They are a solid NSIC member and dont seem to have the resources. I dont believe they are recruiting even the full NSIC limit now. No other NSIC school seems to be viable.

Why would schools further afield, for instance an RMAC school, want to join? It would greatly increase their overhead and they already have a competitive conference.

Maybe New Haven would join? But all that would do is increase costs and thats one of the big reasons other schools are touting as why they dont want to move up. In fact baring a surprise from one of the more regional schools any potential new members will have this affect.

I think its far more likely for Augustana to leave the NCC for the NSIC than have another NSIC team join this league. If the league does stay intact I have no trouble seeing USD, Augi, Manakto and probably SCSU supporting a scholarship cut.

for NCC D1 hockey schools Scholarship cuts may not be too important, but they leave a school like NDSU in a tough position. To get the D1 exposure it wants Its far more expensive for NDSU to add hockey than to just move the other sports up. Hockey needs facilities that arent there and there is no conference for NDSU to join. Rather than finding itself in a position where athletics are being de-emphasized and they are losing visibility they have to move up. I believe SDSU finds themselves in much the same position.

That leaves the NCC is a tough spot and may force it to join with the NSIC and create a two tier league much like the LSC.

[The Sicatoka]

You know, JBB, there's really not much I can disagree with you on this time. You make a well reasoned case. Let me follow down with my points (while reading yours).

I can see and understand your concern regarding another FB scholarship number reduction. You sound sure that it's going to happen (based on history). We'll find out in 2004.

Is Winona funding the max NSIC scholarships? I don't remember but I don't think they're even doing that. And I'm not holding my breath for UN-Kearney. Their travel isn't good either way (RMAC or NCC) and they're the closest RMAC. And I definitely do not see Augie and UMD approving New Haven to the NCC. The travel would be outrageous. If you're going to spend the bucks to travel that far ... , yes, I see your point.

The scenarios? If SDSU goes all of it comes into play: UNO has whispered MIAA if the NCC melts down; Augie is probably a better fiscal fit with the NSIC.

You've also caught another part of the situation here too, call it "Goldie Syndrome." Minnesota takes good care of Goldie Gopher, but the others (UMD, SCSU, MSUM) seem to starve relatively. It's like what happened in Wisconsin where the Legislature there said UW is DI and all the other state schools are DIII. (They form their own ten-team DIII league.) Heck, back to scenarios, the NSIC could become just like the DIII league in Wisconsin, but DII and nearly all Minnesota.

But here's where we'll have to maybe disagree. UND is getting "fairly adequate" DI exposure with hockey. (In the last month there have been articles at ESPN.com, NYT, and a bunch of others.)

CSL said NDSU's budget of $5.1M would have to go between $6.7M and $7.9M at DI. That's a $1.6M to $2.8M increase.

It costs $1.8M to run mens hockey and $0.5M to run womens hockey at UND. (The mens budget is one of the highest in the country.) Hockey at UND costs $2.3M. Cost-wise, hockey or DI, is a wash.

Facilities? There's no suitable ice in Fargo (short of making the final modifications to the 'Dome for about $3M), but nor is there a DI caliber basketball arena (other than FargoDome). Dare I call that a wash as well?

From that perspective, this was a football leads the decision thought process. That's fine. FB is NDSU's big dog and it's NDSU's choice to make. And yes, SDSU finds itself in somewhat similar straights.

Like I've said all along, I've seen some interesting positioning by UND of late. They appear to be preparing themselves for a potential scenario where DI(AA) is their better option due to the events around them.

[bancheedog]

Good points. From what I've heard, Winona State has only about 15 rides in football. It truly is amazing what their doing. But, their in a great location with Wisconsin and Illinois not far away.

New Haven? I doubt. If any NSIC joined I really believe Southwest State would think about again, like they did a year ago. But like they said two years ago when there was discussion, SSU would only go to the NCC (and this was before UNC and NDSU said they would leave) if they were fully funded in all sports. Schwan's in town is a big supporter and the talk was they may kick in alot of money toward athletics.

Football at SSU is struggling, but hopefully and is, getting better. But the other SSU sports are pretty darn solid and can compete if they continue to raise more money. 9 conference titles in the last two years along with great play in the NCAA Tournaments in basketball for instance.

Winona State is funded that well, I believe their just in a great location to recruit athletes

[star2city]

JBB,

For someone associated with a future big-time Division I University, you seem to have an unnatural fascination with a Division II conference, the NCC. If you check the NCC