Horizon League

[Ole in MSP]

The only major sports are Men's Hockey and Men's BBall. I think both GF and Fargo can support that at a DI level (I realize NDSU does not yet have hockey)

Interesting that you do not think FB is a major sport at either school. Thought NDSU had FB on the brain! With 63 scholarships and 100 players both schools will need some decent attendance to support their programs. Fargo has the population advantage and the head start for playoff contention so that should not be as big a concern at NDSU. UND needs better attendance and schedule than the last year or two or I think there will be financial issues ahead even with the alumni support.

[MplsBison]

Interesting that you do not think FB is a major sport at either school. Thought NDSU had FB on the brain! With 63 scholarships and 100 players both schools will need some decent attendance to support their programs. Fargo has the population advantage and the head start for playoff contention so that should not be as big a concern at NDSU. UND needs better attendance and schedule than the last year or two or I think there will be financial issues ahead even with the alumni support.

I was only referring to winter sports. Football does not interfere with winter sports schedules for the most part.

There are no other major sports in fall and no major college sports in spring.

[Shawn-O]

I don't think there should be any expectation that FCS football will ever be a cash cow. But on the other hand, I don't think de-emphasizing football is a prerequisite to having a good mid-major basketball program, either. I would prefer to aspire to be more like UNI or SIU than Butler or Gonzaga or Creighton or St. Mary's because I don't want to sacrifice football, even if it's never going to turn a big profit.

Being that they can't even make money in Missoula with 150,000+ fans per season, I'd say this is spot on.

[bincitysioux]

FWIW, I live exactly 100 miles from Grand Forks. I have 4 season tickets to football, and 4 season tickets to hockey. After plopping down $355 per seat for hockey, myself anyways, I can't afford to spend $190 per seat for basketball on top of all that, let alone make the drive every single time there is a basketball game at the Betty considering they play the majority of their home games in the middle of the week. The sports of football and hockey set themselves up nicely for people who travel some distance to make games, since they are almost always on weekends, save for the occaisional Thursday football game.

Still though, basketball at UND can make money. Everybody loves a winner, though, that is the thing. It has been a while, like 15+ years, since UND basketball has been a significant factor on a national stage, regardless of NCAA classification. Hockey and football have always been in the mix in that same time-frame that is the difference.

Oh yeah, basketball-wise, the Horizon is something like 7.4 times better quality basketball than the Summit League, and I was saying that before Butler made the Final 4. Not meant to be a slight against the Summit, just giving props to the Horizon, something Mplsbison is unwilling to do.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yes, I see your point, but during late season FB, Hockey, and BB seasons it is not easy to get to and from GF on a regular basis for people more than say 100 miles away. While I wish all the people in that radius well, I do not think the financial ability of enough families in that area to have season tickets to all the UND major events at a high enough level is available. You have to rely on alumni contributions and a large local fanbase to pay top college coaching salaries. Not saying it is not possible for UND, just a stretch because of local ticket revenue across all the major sports. Good FB and BB coaches at UND and NDSU will continue to be enticed away by higher salaries and bigger opportunities. Fact, as a result of geography as much as anything, the population of the area is just not going to match other universities in size and therefore attendance across the board. The 100 mile radius around SIU has perhaps 20 towns over 20,000 people plus St Louis, Evansville, and Paducah. Believe it or not the area around UNI withing 100 miles has far more population than eastern ND. I love hockey, but the dollar dilution of that program for attendance is not helping the other D1 sports in comparison to schools like UNI, NDSU, and SIU that do not have that distraction of funding.

Penn State seems to find a way to sell a lot of tickets. They are in State College, PA, a town smaller than Grand Forks. Pittsburgh is about 135 miles away and Philadelphia is close to 200 miles away so they have a lot of people in the state, but not within your 100 mile range. They put 100,000 people in the football stadium every game and play in a 15,000 seat basketball fieldhouse (although the last season I could find numbers for they averaged about 7,000 per game and 8,000 for conference games). They get plenty of winter weather and that doesn't stop them from competing in one of the major conferences.

UND sells a lot of hockey season tickets to people more than 100 miles from Grand Forks. There are season ticket holders in Williston, Dickinson, Bismarck and the Twin Cities, along with a lot of other places in the region. If UND can develop a quality basketball program, they will sell plenty of tickets to compete at the mid-major level. It won't hurt football ticket sales or hockey ticket sales as long as those problems continue to have success. But several losing seasons in a row will hurt ticket sales in any of the sports.

[MplsBison]

FWIW, I live exactly 100 miles from Grand Forks. I have 4 season tickets to football, and 4 season tickets to hockey. After plopping down $355 per seat for hockey, myself anyways, I can't afford to spend $190 per seat for basketball on top of all that, let alone make the drive every single time there is a basketball game at the Betty considering they play the majority of their home games in the middle of the week. The sports of football and hockey set themselves up nicely for people who travel some distance to make games, since they are almost always on weekends, save for the occaisional Thursday football game.

Still though, basketball at UND can make money. Everybody loves a winner, though, that is the thing. It has been a while, like 15+ years, since UND basketball has been a significant factor on a national stage, regardless of NCAA classification. Hockey and football have always been in the mix in that same time-frame that is the difference.

Oh yeah, basketball-wise, the Horizon is something like 7.4 times better quality basketball than the Summit League, and I was saying that before Butler made the Final 4. Not meant to be a slight against the Summit, just giving props to the Horizon, something Mplsbison is unwilling to do.

Other than Butler, the Summit is just as good as the Horizon.

I also don't expect hockey fans to get bball season tickets. But believe it or not, not every UND fan is a UND hockey fan (I know, shocking).

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Other than Butler, the Summit is just as good as the Horizon.

I also don't expect hockey fans to get bball season tickets. But believe it or not, not every UND fan is a UND hockey fan (I know, shocking).

No but hockey sure pays it's share of bills.

From the Sioux Hockey 2010-2011 thread page 4:

I can't find the numbers I am looking for, but according to figures reported to the US Dept of Education for the '08-09 school year (latest available) compare UND with OSU:

CODE

Men's Hockey / Total Revenue / Total Expense /Net "profit"

UND / $3,596,366 / $2,075,293 / $1,521,073

OSU / $1,051,923 /$2,363,322 / <$1,311,399>

[Hansel]

No but hockey sure pays it's share of bills.

From the Sioux Hockey 2010-2011 thread page 4:

I can't find the numbers I am looking for, but according to figures reported to the US Dept of Education for the '08-09 school year (latest available) compare UND with OSU:

CODE

Men's Hockey / Total Revenue / Total Expense /Net "profit"

UND / $3,596,366 / $2,075,293 / $1,521,073

OSU / $1,051,923 /$2,363,322 / <$1,311,399>

Do they have women's hockey #'s?

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Do they have women's hockey #'s?

Not sure. I will look.

[JLP157]

The only major sports are Men's Hockey and Men's BBall. I think both GF and Fargo can support that at a DI level (I realize NDSU does not yet have hockey)

So is Bison Boy now admitting that Men's Hockey is a major sport?

[summitfever]

Hockey is not a major sport nationwide, the facts are all over on that.

My thoughts as an avid basketball man. Horizon League has Butler and to some extent UW Milwaukee that are really really good programs, after that UW Green Bay, Valpo.. etc etc.

Id Say Horizon is here ------ and Summit is just slightly below _____. Summit is improving every year. ORU and IUPUI and OAKLAND are 3 tough teams, with NDSU and SDSU picking up much better athletes in recruiting, thats 5 teams that are very even and provide solid basketball and coaching. whereas, everyone in the horizon is chasing butler.

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Hockey is not a major sport nationwide, the facts are all over on that.

My thoughts as an avid basketball man. Horizon League has Butler and to some extent UW Milwaukee that are really really good programs, after that UW Green Bay, Valpo.. etc etc.

Id Say Horizon is here ------ and Summit is just slightly below _____. Summit is improving every year. ORU and IUPUI and OAKLAND are 3 tough teams, with NDSU and SDSU picking up much better athletes in recruiting, thats 5 teams that are very even and provide solid basketball and coaching. whereas, everyone in the horizon is chasing butler.

Curious what the penalties are going to be against IUPUI? Not digging just wondering if they have announced the full details of the punishment?

[Ole in MSP]

Penn State seems to find a way to sell a lot of tickets. They are in State College, PA, a town smaller than Grand Forks. Pittsburgh is about 135 miles away and Philadelphia is close to 200 miles away so they have a lot of people in the state, but not within your 100 mile range. They put 100,000 people in the football stadium every game and play in a 15,000 seat basketball fieldhouse (although the last season I could find numbers for they averaged about 7,000 per game and 8,000 for conference games). They get plenty of winter weather and that doesn't stop them from competing in one of the major conferences.

UND sells a lot of hockey season tickets to people more than 100 miles from Grand Forks. There are season ticket holders in Williston, Dickinson, Bismarck and the Twin Cities, along with a lot of other places in the region. If UND can develop a quality basketball program, they will sell plenty of tickets to compete at the mid-major level. It won't hurt football ticket sales or hockey ticket sales as long as those problems continue to have success. But several losing seasons in a row will hurt ticket sales in any of the sports.

Are you delirious? Penn State has more undergrad students than the population of GF. Add the grad and prof schools approach the population of Fargo and the grad and prof schools alone have more students than UND. Winters there are much milder than ND, but it is hilly so a little snow has a big effect. There are numerous towns including Harrisburg around that dwarf the towns in ND within 100 miles of UND. Not saying FB will never make money, but admit it, the splitting of the ticket dollar in the GF area will not support all the major sports that UND wants to support, especially if they are not winning regularly. Penn State does not have hockey either so that dilution does not occur.

[MplsBison]

Are you delirious? Penn State has more undergrad students than the population of GF. Add the grad and prof schools approach the population of Fargo and the grad and prof schools alone have more students than UND. Winters there are much milder than ND, but it is hilly so a little snow has a big effect. There are numerous towns including Harrisburg around that dwarf the towns in ND within 100 miles of UND. Not saying FB will never make money, but admit it, the splitting of the ticket dollar in the GF area will not support all the major sports that UND wants to support, especially if they are not winning regularly. Penn State does not have hockey either so that dilution does not occur.

GF area can support winning UND football, men's hockey and men's bball teams in the same year. At least give it a chance. Why are you in such a big hurry to deny it a chance? Are you scared that your precisous hockey team will suffer?

[Ole in MSP]

GF area can support winning UND football, men's hockey and men's bball teams in the same year. At least give it a chance. Why are you in such a big hurry to deny it a chance? Are you scared that your precisous hockey team will suffer?

Please go back to my original comment " UND needs better attendance and schedule than the last year or two or I think there will be financial issues ahead even with the alumni support." This was not meant to be contentious or derogatory. I am not worried about the hockey team as they will be fine. As an interested and concerned alum who lives almost 7 hours away and find it difficult to attend games, I would like to see local attendance at both FB and BB improved over the last two years. My concern is that in a weak economy, considerable dilution of the family sports dollar, and the costs associated with a D1 program across the board i.e. travel etc. that the financial situation could be very tough. I have no numbers to back up my position, however, larger schools than UND and NDSU are having financial issues even with larger populations to buy tickets.

[summitfever]

MPLS you shouldn't post, seriously.

More Sioux. IUPUI got 3 years probation and had to forfeit about 48 wins I believe from 2003-2005 in 6 different sports (only 5 in basketball) I know the Summit Commissioner isn't too happy with it.

[star2city]

MPLS you shouldn't post, seriously.

More Sioux. IUPUI got 3 years probation and had to forfeit about 48 wins I believe from 2003-2005 in 6 different sports (only 5 in basketball) I know the Summit Commissioner isn't too happy with it.

The Sioux nickname is a much more important issue to Douple than a meagher 48 wins that IUPUI is forfeiting.

Centenary being sanctioned by the NCAA in men's basketball and blackballed from postseason play: that wasn't embarassing either to the Summit League.

[MplsBison]

The Sioux nickname is a much more important issue to Douple than a meagher 48 wins that IUPUI is forfeiting.

Centenary being sanctioned by the NCAA in men's basketball and blackballed from postseason play: that wasn't embarassing either to the Summit League.

The Summit is UND's only option for an auto-bid conference in the next 5 years, minimum. Boy, that must really burn you up.

[fightingsioux4life]

When the new REA was under construction, we kept hearing the naysayers tell us that Grand Forks in particular and North Dakota in general isn't big enough to fill an 11,500 seat arena. Nine years and a bunch of sellouts later, no one is making that argument anymore.

People outside of the immediate Grand Forks area get season hockey tickets and drive in for every home game. This is the model that must be followed for each and every sport UND sponsors. Those triple-header hockey-football weekends we sometimes have in the fall could be marketed to fans outside the immediate GF area. Football will be bringing in better athletes and better opponents and that will give us more marketing tools than ever to elevate that sport to higher levels of interest and success. Basketball could develop a rabid, loyal fan base of it's own by marketing to people that aren't into hockey or can't get tickets because of finances or availability. But all of this will require that the athletic department do a better job of marketing and promotion, two areas that have seriously been lacking at this institution for years.

The hockey-only mantra that has driven the athletic department for years must stop now that we are Division 1 in everything. Otherwise, we shouldn't have moved up in the first place. This challenge will determine whether Brian Faison is a success or failure as our AD.

[Matt]

When the new REA was under construction, we kept hearing the naysayers tell us that Grand Forks in particular and North Dakota in general isn't big enough to fill an 11,500 seat arena. Nine years and a bunch of sellouts later, no one is making that argument anymore.

People outside of the immediate Grand Forks area get season hockey tickets and drive in for every home game. This is the model that must be followed for each and every sport UND sponsors. Those triple-header hockey-football weekends we sometimes have in the fall could be marketed to fans outside the immediate GF area. Football will be bringing in better athletes and better opponents and that will give us more marketing tools than ever to elevate that sport to higher levels of interest and success. Basketball could develop a rabid, loyal fan base of it's own by marketing to people that aren't into hockey or can't get tickets because of finances or availability. But all of this will require that the athletic department do a better job of marketing and promotion, two areas that have seriously been lacking at this institution for years.

The hockey-only mantra that has driven the athletic department for years must stop now that we are Division 1 in everything. Otherwise, we shouldn't have moved up in the first place. This challenge will determine whether Brian Faison is a success or failure as our AD.

I don't disagree with marketing a triple header weekend with hockey. However, football has value in and of itself independent of hockey. It's that value which must be communicated to fans to reach the goals the athletic department has-increasing number of season ticket holders, fundraising, etc.

As it relates to basketball, no marketing in the world will be effective until the men stop stinking out loud. We saw this year who turns out for that product-friends, family, and the most die hard alumns. The program needs to show it at least belongs at this level of basketball.

[MplsBison]

What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

The bball program has good facilities. That's the first step.

Now it needs good coaching and players. But you need to spend money to get a good, young coach who will go and recruit those players he needs to win.

If you refuse to spend money on the program until it wins on its own, you could be waiting for a long time until you get lucky with a good but cheap coach.

[fightingsioux4life]

As it relates to basketball, no marketing in the world will be effective until the men stop stinking out loud. We saw this year who turns out for that product-friends, family, and the most die hard alumns. The program needs to show it at least belongs at this level of basketball.

You are correct about the Men's BB program, that program hasn't been relevant for about 15 years and counting. It's almost as irrelevant as Michigan Tech in hockey. I was thinking into the future of the Men's BB program, when we get it out of the deep hole it is in right now and get people excited about it again. Once that happens, we will have to step up marketing efforts or we'll waste a great opportunity. And while the Men's program is in the toilet, the Women's program is in solid shape and will probably compete for a spot in the NCAA tournament once they are tournament eligible in a few years.

You are right, football should be marketed on it's own merits. It's the main reason we moved up and we can't keep treating it like a red-headed stepchild like we have for years. It's why Dale Lennon is at Southern Illinois and it's why we'll lose Chris Mussman in the future if we don't start treating football better.

[fightingsioux4life]

What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

The bball program has good facilities. That's the first step.

Now it needs good coaching and players. But you need to spend money to get a good, young coach who will go and recruit those players he needs to win.

If you refuse to spend money on the program until it wins on its own, you could be waiting for a long time until you get lucky with a good but cheap coach.

I agree with you, you have to spend money to make money. And you have to spend money to get results. We have to pump money and other types of resources into these programs or they'll never turn into anything special.

[MplsBison]

I agree with you, you have to spend money to make money. And you have to spend money to get results. We have to pump money and other types of resources into these programs or they'll never turn into anything special.

Thanks.

It's refreshing to see there are still some UND fans who don't think that every dollar should be given to the hockey program and then, if there's any left over, to the football program.

Men's bball has the potential to be the biggest sport at both NDSU and UND.

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Regarding Triple header weekends:

It is already tough getting rooms inn GF on those weekends.

I am in Fargo and have season hockey tickets. I drive up for every home game and that is always a tough weekend to save one round trip.