Montana and FBS: moving in that direction?

[star2city]

I don't buy either of your stories for a second. 50k to watch SunBelt football? Nope.

Oh and by the way, you take I-65 from Mobile up to Birmingham and then I-20 over to Tuscaloosa to go to 'Bama games. Not sure what you're talking about.

You're failing to comprehend at several levels: USA won't be in the SunBelt for long.

Second, you're totally failing to understand TRAFFIC. So you'd actually drive to Birmingham to get to Tuscaloosa on a GAME DAY so you can be in that traffic jam for hours!! It takes forever and a day to get in and out of Tuscaloosa on GAME DAY: there is no easy way in or out.

[star2city]

Montana's AD expects a number for schools to move from FCS to FBS after the moratorium.

This is one prime candidate:

James Madison $50 mill + stadium expansion

[MplsBison]

This

That's slower than taking the interstate.

[MplsBison]

You're failing to comprehend at several levels: USA won't be in the SunBelt for long.

Second, you're totally failing to understand TRAFFIC. So you'd actually drive to Birmingham to get to Tuscaloosa on a GAME DAY so you can be in that traffic jam for hours!! It takes forever and a day to get in and out of Tuscaloosa on GAME DAY: there is no easy way in or out.

Sorry, CUSA. They're going to watch CUSA football instead of SEC football? Nope.

Okay...so all things being equal, it's faster to take the interstate than to take the "piney woods 2 lane highways" that you lament and supposidly this is going to drive 50k Mobil bay 'Bama fans to stay home and watch USA on Saturdays? Nope.

[MplsBison]

There's no point in arguing this any further. The topic of the thread is that more schools are going to move up to FBS and I agree with that 100%.

I'm simply pointing out that the move-ups are going to be more Western Kentucky's.

[star2city]

There's no point in arguing this any further. The topic of the thread is that more schools are going to move up to FBS and I agree with that 100%.

I'm simply pointing out that the move-ups are going to be more Western Kentucky's.

A rumor going around is that Illinois State will be moving up to FBS and join the MAC for football only once the moratorium is over. That would explain why Ball State scheduled a home and home with Illinois State, when FCS schools don't normally get home games against FBS teams. Ill State would play MAC football in like 2014, but needs FBS games in the transition.

This rumor actually makes sense on a number of different levels: the MAC has an unbalanced divisional alignment with 7 teams in the east (including Temple) and 6 in the west. Adding Ill St balances that, as well as giving N Ill an in-state rival. Also, Illinois State wouldn't need to leave the Missouri Valley for basketball, as the MAC allows football affiliation.

If Ill State leaves, the MVFC would be down to 8, and it would likely want to add UND and USD at that time.

[MplsBison]

A rumor going around is that Illinois State will be moving up to FBS and join the MAC for football only once the moratorium is over. That would explain why Ball State scheduled a home and home with Illinois State, when FCS schools don't normally get home games against FBS teams. Ill State would play MAC football in like 2014, but needs FBS games in the transition.

This rumor actually makes sense on a number of different levels: the MAC has an unbalanced divisional alignment with 7 teams in the east (including Temple) and 6 in the west. Adding Ill St balances that, as well as giving N Ill an in-state rival. Also, Illinois State wouldn't need to leave the Missouri Valley for basketball, as the MAC allows football affiliation.

If Ill State leaves, the MVFC would be down to 8, and it would likely want to add UND and USD at that time.

That would be excellent! And I can't argue against anything you say...Ill State to the MAC does seem to benefit all and fulfills ISU's stated goal of FBS football.

[mksioux]

A rumor going around is that Illinois State will be moving up to FBS and join the MAC for football only once the moratorium is over. That would explain why Ball State scheduled a home and home with Illinois State, when FCS schools don't normally get home games against FBS teams. Ill State would play MAC football in like 2014, but needs FBS games in the transition.

This rumor actually makes sense on a number of different levels: the MAC has an unbalanced divisional alignment with 7 teams in the east (including Temple) and 6 in the west. Adding Ill St balances that, as well as giving N Ill an in-state rival. Also, Illinois State wouldn't need to leave the Missouri Valley for basketball, as the MAC allows football affiliation.

If Ill State leaves, the MVFC would be down to 8, and it would likely want to add UND and USD at that time.

I'd love to see UND and USD get into the MVFC, but if they lost a team, why not go back to 9? 10 is not an ideal number for a footbal-only conference. In any event, any movement to shake things up is good for UND.

[star2city]

I'd love to see UND and USD get into the MVFC, but if they lost a team, why not go back to 9? 10 is not an ideal number for a football-only conference. In any event, any movement to shake things up is good for UND.

Three MVFC schools are possible FBS conference candidates: Ill State, Youngstown St (not to the MAC, but to a possible new eastern FBS conference), and Missouri State (to CUSA). If any one of them moves on, USD and UND would both likely be invited, as another defection could also occur.

[star2city]

Older Article on Illinois State's Goal of Moving to FBS

(Ill St AD) Zenger on Wednesday (12/18/08) reiterated the university's previously stated goal of eventually moving from the Football Championship Subdivision to FBS.

"I believe ISU could have been playing I-A (FBS) football from 1982 forward. They made the choice to go I-AA (FCS)," said Zenger. "I believe our first job is to establish a consistent and dominant program at the FCS level. I believe we've found a coach who can do that.

"Should we want to make that transition at some point, I believe he's a coach capable of that as well. But I would put that out in the distant future."

Ill St Stadium renovation and expansion

Zenger and ISU president Al Bowman have previously expressed a desire to move the ISU football program from Football Championship Subdivision to Football Bowl Subdivision (I-AA to I-A) but only if fan and donor interest indicates such a move would be well received.

While future phases of the renovation - if they occur - would include a boost in Hancock Stadium capacity to 25,000 to 30,000, the initial phase would leave capacity near its current 15,000.Zenger is targeting an initial phase of Hancock renovation that would cost from $10 million to $20 million.

"The first priority is aesthetics. We need to improve the looks of this stadium," said Zenger. "No. 2 is seating capacity. We need to make sure we build but not overbuild for the fan need we have right now and expect to have in the near future.

"And we need to be cognizant of phase two and possibly three so we don't build a structure in such a way we can't expand."

[star2city]

Last spring when the NCAA released it's APR, the Big Sky had some serious issues. If those APR don't improve with the newest ratings, it's theoretically possible that the Big Sky could lose it's men's basketball autobid if two schools get placed on post-season probation. The Big Sky wouldn't have the minimum number of eligible schools needed to qualify.

Such a turn of events could make leaving the Big Sky a no-brainer decision for Montana, even though it would mean moving to FBS and the WAC. The leadership at Montana and Montana State probably are already aware of the likely scores.

There's a number of existing conference fault lines (Big East, Big Ten, PAC10, MWC, WAC, CUSA), and with the Big Sky having some fissures, it's all the more reason to jump ship. A school like Southern Utah might not even backfill unless it is clear that there an autobid can be regained quickly.

Idaho State, Montana and Northern Colorado were the only Big Sky athletic departments that received no scholarship losses or public warnings in the NCAA's latest APR release. The men's basketball programs at Eastern Washington and Portland State were penalized with a loss of scholarships.

[Shawn-O]

Last spring when the NCAA released it's APR, the Big Sky had some serious issues. If those APR don't improve with the newest ratings, it's theoretically possible that the Big Sky could lose it's men's basketball autobid if two schools get placed on post-season probation. The Big Sky wouldn't have the minimum number of eligible schools needed to qualify.

Such a turn of events could make leaving the Big Sky a no-brainer decision for Montana, even though it would mean moving to FBS and the WAC. The leadership at Montana and Montana State probably are already aware of the likely scores.

There's a number of existing conference fault lines (Big East, Big Ten, PAC10, MWC, WAC, CUSA), and with the Big Sky having some fissures, it's all the more reason to jump ship. A school like Southern Utah might not even backfill unless it is clear that there an autobid can be regained quickly.

Is there a precedent for this?

[star2city]

Is there a precedent for this?

The APR system is relatively new, so there isn't a precedent to my knowledge. Centenary isn't eligible this year, but that's only one school out of 10 in the Summit.

[MplsBison]

The APR system is relatively new, so there isn't a precedent to my knowledge. Centenary isn't eligible this year, but that's only one school out of 10 in the Summit.

Plus they're leaving the Summit and being replaced with South Dakota.

I think the next conference re-alignment is coming in a couple years and it could be a major shake-up. In all scenarios I can't see the WAC keeping all of it's current 9 teams. At a minimum I see Boise, Fresno and maybe Nevada leaving.

That opens the door for Big Sky schools to move up. I could see Portland, Sacramento, both Montana schools and maybe even Weber exploring possibilities.

[star2city]

Plus they're leaving the Summit and being replaced with South Dakota.

I think the next conference re-alignment is coming in a couple years and it could be a major shake-up. In all scenarios I can't see the WAC keeping all of it's current 9 teams. At a minimum I see Boise, Fresno and maybe Nevada leaving.

That opens the door for Big Sky schools to move up. I could see Portland, Sacramento, both Montana schools and maybe even Weber exploring possibilities.

The WAC will be begging for new FBS schools, practically guaranteed.

The Big Sky will have a major shakeup: not only will it consider Southern Utah, but also take in non-football schools like Utah Valley, and later Grand Canyon when it moves to DI. Supposedly, it has has feelers out to Western Washington - WWU couldn't go DI with football. It might also have feelers out to Bakersfield (likely bound to Big West), Seattle, and Denver, although none of them have true interest unless other options are gone.

[star2city]

The WAC will be begging for new FBS schools, practically guaranteed.

The Big Sky will have a major shakeup: not only will it consider Southern Utah, but also take in non-football schools like Utah Valley, and later Grand Canyon when it moves to DI. Supposedly, it has has feelers out to Western Washington - WWU couldn't go DI with football. It might also have feelers out to Bakersfield (likely bound to Big West), Seattle, and Denver, although none of them have true interest unless other options are gone.

Hate to cut and paste from another forum, but seems the Montana AD has been making some interesting statements:

eGriz on Big Sky and FBS changes

Re: On UM Going to the FBS

Post by Flathead Griz

[Shawn-O]

Not to mention the BCS TV agreement is up after the 2013 season, and Notre Dame's deal is through 2015, at which time it will become more clear that schools such as Northwestern and Vanderbilt will very likely be ahead of Our Lady in television revenues. Should make for interesting times, sounds like a perfect storm for a shake-up.

[MplsBison]

Throw on top of that the Big Ten expansion.

There will most definitely be a major shake-up coming, NCAA mandate/reorganization or not.

[bincitysioux]

So, who would be in favor of North Dakota joining a Montana-less Big Sky Conference? Obviously, earlier in the decade most fans of all the Dakota schools initially wanted the Big Sky for a home, because association with Montana and Montana St. was appealing. If both Montana schools left for FBS, it could finally make North Dakota a consideration for the Big Sky. UND surely prefers an invite to the Summit over the Big Sky (especially a depleted one), but this situation could create two viable autobid options for UND to potentially end up in.

Personally, even without the Montana schools, and despite all the other Dakotas being in the Summit, one has to consider the fact that the Big Sky would also offer an autobid for football.

[star2city]

Throw on top of that the Big Ten expansion.

There will most definitely be a major shake-up coming, NCAA mandate/reorganization or not.

With a major shakeup almost certainly coming, that leads to a question: why should UND prostitute itself to Summit demands? With the change in core membership criteria, UND will have equal rights as all other DI schools, and with an indoor practice facility would easily exceed the Summit schools in facilities (discounting baseball/softball). The Summit isn't negotiating, it's basically holding UND in ransom.

In another year or two, the Summit could be begging, not the other way around. Where's our negotiation skill?

[star2city]

So, who would be in favor of North Dakota joining a Montana-less Big Sky Conference? Obviously, earlier in the decade most fans of all the Dakota schools initially wanted the Big Sky for a home, because association with Montana and Montana St. was appealing. If both Montana schools left for FBS, it could finally make North Dakota a consideration for the Big Sky. UND surely prefers an invite to the Summit over the Big Sky (especially a depleted one), but this situation could create two viable autobid options for UND to potentially end up in.

Personally, even without the Montana schools, and despite all the other Dakotas being in the Summit, one has to consider the fact that the Big Sky would also offer an autobid for football.

A Big Sky without Montana/Montana St would still be a conference that would, in many ways, appeal more to alumni than the Summit. Excluding NDSU, SDSU, USD of course. Without a travel partner hard to see it happen, but many of the schools would be more familiar than what the Summit has to offer.

Which is more appealing?

Northern Colorado vs Oral Roberts - UNC

Weber St vs UMKC - UMKC

W Ill vs Idaho St - Idaho St

IUPUI vs Sac St - Sac St

IPFW vs E Wash - E Wash

Oakland vs NAU - NAU

Centenary vs Porland St - Portland St

6:1 Big Sky over Summit (excluding schools in bordering states)

Where it would get interesting is if the Big Sky started offering associate memberships in football.

Which would be more interesting, a football Big Sky or the MVFC?

But, UND needs to set it's sights on a new WAC.

Big 10, PAC10, Big12, and MWC movements, the WAC could very well be down to:

Hawaii

San Jose St

Utah St

Idaho

The WAC adds these schools:

Sac St

Cal Poly

UC Davis

Montana

Montana St

Since most of these are relatively low-budget entry-level FBS schools, divisions would be a necessity to reduce travel expenses. Division only work well with 12 schools.

WAC Pacific

Hawaii - Cal Poly

Sac St - UC Davis

Portland St - San Jose St

WAC Mountain

Utah St - Montana St

Montana - Idaho

UND - NDSU

Bowl games in Hawaii and a restored Camelia Bowl in Sacramento.

That type league is something UND should shoot for (high academics, similar size institutions, mosly non-commuter, western orientation, historical rivals) and, based on projected conference changes, is definitely a stretch but is not pie-in-the-sky.

[82SiouxGuy]

With a major shakeup almost certainly coming, that leads to a question: why should UND prostitute itself to Summit demands? With the change in core membership criteria, UND will have equal rights as all other DI schools, and with an indoor practice facility would easily exceed the Summit schools in facilities (discounting baseball/softball). The Summit isn't negotiating, it's basically holding UND in ransom.

In another year or two, the Summit could be begging, not the other way around. Where's our negotiation skill?

The simple answer to your question is "A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the the bush". There is no guarantee that a major shakeup is going to happen, even though more signs seem to point in that direction. And there is no knowing how UND would fare if such a shakeup did occur. Getting into an autobid conference as soon as possible is advantageous for the Athletic Department economically. But if there is a major shakeup it wouldn't automatically bind UND to the Summit forever. It would still be possible to move if something like your imagined version of a new WAC came to fruition.

[MplsBison]

So, who would be in favor of North Dakota joining a Montana-less Big Sky Conference? Obviously, earlier in the decade most fans of all the Dakota schools initially wanted the Big Sky for a home, because association with Montana and Montana St. was appealing. If both Montana schools left for FBS, it could finally make North Dakota a consideration for the Big Sky. UND surely prefers an invite to the Summit over the Big Sky (especially a depleted one), but this situation could create two viable autobid options for UND to potentially end up in.

Personally, even without the Montana schools, and despite all the other Dakotas being in the Summit, one has to consider the fact that the Big Sky would also offer an autobid for football.

IMO, once the Montana schools leave the Big Sky is dead. The western schools are in financial trouble and do not identify with the mountain schools. Weber, UNC and Idaho St are in a tough spot.

You also have to consider that the Big Sky does not sponsor all of UND's olympic sports.

[MplsBison]

With a major shakeup almost certainly coming, that leads to a question: why should UND prostitute itself to Summit demands? With the change in core membership criteria, UND will have equal rights as all other DI schools, and with an indoor practice facility would easily exceed the Summit schools in facilities (discounting baseball/softball). The Summit isn't negotiating, it's basically holding UND in ransom.

In another year or two, the Summit could be begging, not the other way around. Where's our negotiation skill?

Stop pretending that the Summit is doing anything to UND.

It's UND that wants into the Summit, rightfully. The Summit is UND's sole chance at an auto-bid to the men's bball tournament for the first few years that it's eligible.

There are no other regional entry-level auto-bid conferences.

Sure, there will be a shake-up...but at most all that UND is going to see is probably more spots opening up in the Summit. The Big Sky is going to be dead and there won't be any new entry level conferences that would take a school in the Dakotas.

You aren't going to be able to jump right into a Missouri Valley or Horizon conference.

[star2city]

The simple answer to your question is "A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the the bush". There is no guarantee that a major shakeup is going to happen, even though more signs seem to point in that direction. And there is no knowing how UND would fare if such a shakeup did occur. Getting into an autobid conference as soon as possible is advantageous for the Athletic Department economically. But if there is a major shakeup it wouldn't automatically bind UND to the Summit forever. It would still be possible to move if something like your imagined version of a new WAC came to fruition.

The "bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" is accurate, but perhaps the nickname is really the "bird in hand". If UND drops the nickname now - perhaps 40% of its fans would be royally ticked off - and 10-15% ticked off enough that they become non-fans. The upside of changing the name is almost nothing: the PC types that refuse to go to Engelstad arena will continue not going, because Ralph was a rich white man who's actions upset them. The Ralph will always be a rallying point within the PC movement at UND: next, they'll want "The Ralph" name dropped. An anti-Ralph move is practically inevitable if and when the Sioux name is dropped: the PC forces must have an object of their grievances and scorn.

As far as the Summit, since it is a feeder league to the Horizon and Missouri Valley, it is entirely possible that it could lose the number of members required to maintain an autobid. For all we know now, the Summit may just be a mirage - it's autobid disappearing shortly after we join.

Big East split: large media privates Dayton, Xavier, Butler, St Louis to BB Big East

Atlantic Ten: adds the Horizon privates Detroit, Loyola, Valpo, and maybe even Ohio publics Cleveland St, Wright St to compensate for Dayton/Xavier

Horizon: adds IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW, and maybe even W Ill to fill Detroit/Indy/Ill holes

S Utah gone to Big Sky, ORU to Southland (with UTSA and TXST gone) or MVC (Ill St or Mo St gone)

The same type scenario happened to the Summit in 1994 and the Summit barely survived: it can easily happen again.

Suddenly, the Summit is down to 4-5 teams without UND, but needs eight. Effectively, the old NCC has to reform (adding UNO and others etc) for an autobid, and UND would have sold it's soul for a non-autobid conference.

Review the history of the Summit: it is furthest thing possible from an island of stability and has had to continuously reinvent itself to remain an autobid conference. By becoming Dakota-centric, that type geography drives away most other schools and creates more instability. I'm not advocating staying in the Great West or anything of that nature: but it is inevitable that the Summit will have major membership turmoil as it has always struggled to maintain it's autobid.