UND/NDSU Football Rivalry

[tony]

Based on NDSU's experience drawing top-flight DII teams to Fargo for a butt-whomping, it's going to cost UND around $100k to bring in a decent team. Top-flight DII teams have many other options that do not include a flight to Grand Forks. Even if you managed to snag Carson-Newman that means very little to anybody in Grand Forks (I'd imagine). Trying to sell C-N as being in the same conference as Newberry isn't going to get pulses racing after next weekend

Does Roger Thomas hope to gain anything by going public and all but saying that "we can't schedule NDSU anymore because they'll knock us out of the playoffs?" The story has been in the Herald a couple times, WDAY last night, and I'm sure that it'll be filtering it's way to Bismarck and Minot soon. This is *not* the message that I'd want being spread to potential recruits if I were a UND coach. As a Bison guy, I hope that this story gets some play in all of NDSU's and UND's common recruiting areas.

Edit: my mistake, I thought that UND scheduled Newberry for the Potato Bowl rather than Crookston.

[UND92,96]

UND92,96,

I think you're partly right, UND would have a fine attendance if they brought in a quality DII opponent.  But when is the last time, and I'm not trying to be mean here, that UND brought in a  quality non-conference opponent.  I really think they have to start re-thinking their scheduling, especially with a 7 team NCC.

Perhaps I could have been a bit more clear in my previous post. UND has drawn an average of 9,738 for the five non-conference football games played in the Alerus Center thus far. Since most of those games were against sub-par opponents, I would have to think that within reason any early season game, i.e. a game not competing with any major hunting season, will draw relatively well. Playing opponents other than UMC will only help matters.

I would agree that the non-conference schedule could and should get better, and I think it probably will. To answer your question, UND brought in a quality non-conference opponent last year in Central Washington. While it may have been unexpected how good they turned out to be, it was a quality opponent nonetheless.

[The Sicatoka]

Would you rather (a) risk being knocked out of playoffs, or (b) not be eligible for playoffs at all?

As far as "get pulses racing" opponents, NDSU has proposed a football-only conference made up of the following teams. (I dug and found 2002 average home attendance.)

NDSU 10620

SDSU 5967

UNC 5894

S. Utah 3310

Cal Poly SLO 5952

CSU Northridge (?)

St. Mary's of CA 2595

Like they say on those TV medical shows, "Clear!" (click-whump)

Something in this realm is going to "give" soon. My guess is that the 2004 NCAA meeting are going to change the landscape of collegiate athletics.

[UND92,96]

Does Roger Thomas hope to gain anything by going public and all but saying that "we can't schedule NDSU anymore because they'll knock us out of the playoffs?" The story has been in the Herald a couple times, WDAY last night, and I'm sure that it'll be filtering it's way to Bismarck and Minot soon. This is *not* the message that I'd want being spread to potential recruits if I were a UND coach. As a Bison guy, I hope that this story gets some play in all of NDSU's and UND's common recruiting areas.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe NDSU was playing any I-AA opponents either until it was fairly evident that they were going to be moving up. I can only assume that was due in large part to the fact that 1) that would have probably required travel, and 2) NDSU felt that they had a far better chance of defeating a school with similar scholarships and it was better for playoff purposes to defeat a dII school than compete with but ultimately lose to a I-AA school.

UND has not been playing any I-AA opponents up until now, so this is hardly a change in course. You can make any cracks you want to about the usual caliber of UND's non-conference opponents, but you can't argue with the fact that UND has more than proven itself against the NCC and in the playoffs.

While you don't have to like the fact that UND probably won't play NDSU in football until or unless the two schools are again in the same division, I have to assume you can understand the rationale behind it.

[BisonMav]

The Sicatoka Posted: Sep 2 2003, 12:28 PM 

As far as "get pulses racing" opponents, NDSU has proposed a football-only conference made up of the following teams. (I dug and found 2002 average home attendance.)

NDSU 10620

SDSU 5967

UNC 5894

S. Utah 3310

Cal Poly SLO 5952

CSU Northridge (?)

St. Mary's of CA 2595

Like they say on those TV medical shows, "Clear!" (click-whump)

It is actually UC-Davis at 9194 fans per game, not Northridge.

NCC average is 5594

NCC minus NDSU, UNC & SDSU 4644

Proposed conference 6217

I-AA Maine was on the Bison Schedule in 2001 prior to the 9/11 events.

It may be a good idea for the schools to go their seperate ways for now. The time is right for NDSU to make the move. When and if UND decides to make the move, maybe they can renew the rivalry. The day may come when NDSU wins the I-AA championship and UND wins the Divison II championship in the same year.

[tony]

I'll just ask the question that puzzles Bison fans the most: What is Thomas expecting to accomplish by telling the world that UND can't compete with NDSU anymore?

Is he trying to scare UND supporters into forcing Kupchella to go DI?

Is he Lobbying the state government?

Is he trying to help NDSU get an early start in recruiting season?

[The Sicatoka]

Does Roger Thomas hope to gain anything by going public and all but saying that "we can't schedule NDSU anymore because they'll knock us out of the playoffs?"

First, remember, Thomas didn't say that. You inferred it.

Both Glas and Lennon both gave playoff reasoning as the basis to reconsider scheduling NDSU. If you have a beef on this one, it's not with Thomas.

"I always love playing them, but at some point in time, we'll need to look at what's best for the football program," Sioux football coach Dale Lennon said. "Is the rivalry in jeopardy? I'd say it is."

"To be honest with you, no I wouldn't," Glas said. "They made a philosophical decision of what they want to do as far as going Division I and good luck ... . It's not the same anymore. They've gone a different direction."

"I don't disagree with anything they're thinking," Taylor said of the Sioux. "We don't worry about the playoffs. We're just trying to get games."

tony, to your last three questions, if I were to guess answers I'd say "Yes, maybe, never."

[UND92,96]

I'll just ask the question that puzzles Bison fans the most: What is Thomas expecting to accomplish by telling the world that UND can't compete with NDSU anymore?

I'm puzzled at exactly what Roger said to make you come to this conclusion. I know he didn't say anything of the sort in the Herald article.

UND hasn't played a I-AA opponent in 15 to 20 years, so if UND doesn't play NDSU after this year it's not like this is somehow a 180 degree change in scheduling philosophy. Northern Iowa hasn't been on the schedule since it left the NCC in 1978, UNC probably won't be on the schedule again anytime soon, nor would I expect to see SDSU after this year. I don't see any compelling reason why NDSU's move from dII should be the impetus to change this practice of not scheduling I-AA opponents.

[tony]

Well, look at it from my viewpoint, the GF Herald quotes/summarizes Roger Thomas as saying: (I'd expect a real reporter to ask the follow-ups I put in bold)

- Recent changes in the NCC have complicated matters between the Sioux and the Bison. How have they complicate things?

- There is no contract, not even an agreement on a meeting between the two teams for next year. It's been reported that NDSU's AD sent you a contract. Are you saying this is not the case?

- With South Dakota State announcing it is leaving the NCC and conference schedules changing because of that, all of that needs to be worked out as soon as possible. What needs to be worked out?

- We need to have the appropriate number of home games on our schedule for 2004, so this is a little bit of a hang-up. What is an appropriate number of home games?

- If UND does agree to play NDSU in Fargo in 2004 in its first year of Division I, an option would be for UND to juggle its other nonconference games to bolster the home schedule. Have you tried this? If NDSU goes to Grand Forks in 2004, will UND have an "adequate number of home games" in 2005?

- I think we can get some resolution to this. There are a number of ways it could be done. We (Thomas and NDSU athletic director Gene Taylor) just need to sit down and get it done. The bottom line is that we need to have our team have an adequate home schedule in 2004. So what you're saying is that UND will play NDSU if they give up a home game for you?

As an aside, do you see why I consider the Herald more of a newsletter than a newspaper? They basically publish UND's press releases. These aren't hardball questions either, just natural follow-ups to get a person to clarify themselves.

Anyway, we're both guilty of inferring things. IMO, logic supports my position more than yours.

Thomas never mentions an arbitrary rule about not playing DI-AA teams nor does he say that he's worried about getting knocked out of the playoffs - however, two of his employees mention getting knocked out of the playoffs as a reason for backing out, none cite an internal rule against playing DI teams. Hell, Miles played Kansas in basketball and UND has been sniffing around DI-AA teams for a game for the last couple years. All Thomas says is that the football team needs a home game. However, that doesn't explain the GFH headlines (pretty misleading) and it doesn't explain why UND wouldn't schedule NDSU for basketball.

[UND92,96]

Well, look at it from my viewpoint, the GF Herald quotes/summarizes Roger Thomas as saying:  (I'd expect a real reporter to ask the follow-ups I put in bold)

- Recent changes in the NCC have complicated matters between the Sioux and the Bison. How have they complicate things?

- There is no contract, not even an agreement on a meeting between the two teams for next year. It's been reported that NDSU's AD sent you a contract. Are you saying this is not the case?

- With South Dakota State announcing it is leaving the NCC and conference schedules changing because of that, all of that needs to be worked out as soon as possible. What needs to be worked out?

- We need to have the appropriate number of home games on our schedule for 2004, so this is a little bit of a hang-up. What is an appropriate number of home games?

- If UND does agree to play NDSU in Fargo in 2004 in its first year of Division I, an option would be for UND to juggle its other nonconference games to bolster the home schedule. Have you tried this? If NDSU goes to Grand Forks in 2004, will UND have an "adequate number of home games" in 2005?

- I think we can get some resolution to this. There are a number of ways it could be done. We (Thomas and NDSU athletic director Gene Taylor) just need to sit down and get it done. The bottom line is that we need to have our team have an adequate home schedule in 2004. So what you're saying is that UND will play NDSU if they give up a home game for you?

As an aside, do you see why I consider the Herald more of a newsletter than a newspaper? They basically publish UND's press releases. These aren't hardball questions either, just natural follow-ups to get a person to clarify themselves.

Anyway, we're both guilty of inferring things. IMO, logic supports my position more than yours.

Thomas never mentions an arbitrary rule about not playing DI-AA teams nor does he say that he's worried about getting knocked out of the playoffs - however, two of his employees mention getting knocked out of the playoffs as a reason for backing out, none cite an internal rule against playing DI teams. Hell, Miles played Kansas in basketball and UND has been sniffing around DI-AA teams for a game for the last couple years. All Thomas says is that the football team needs a home game. However, that doesn't explain the GFH headlines (pretty misleading) and it doesn't explain why UND wouldn't schedule NDSU for basketball.

I'm not exactly the biggest Herald fan in the world, but in the interest of fairness, Kolpack didn't seem to ask many, if any of your questions either, did he?:

Forum link

There are many who have complained that the Forum is little more than an NDSU cheerleader. Just ask an MSU-Moorhead or Concordia fan.

I realize you can't speak for all Bison fans, but why do you personally want to see the series continue in football?

[The Sicatoka]

There are always more questions than space in the article.

And there are always questions that could have been asked.

Foss and Kolpack are doing what they can. I'll cut them a break.

Why is DIAA NDSU so worried about scheduling a DII UND anyway? Why wouldn't NDSU schedule someone else to come in and fill that building?

[tony]

Big Edit:

I agree with fightin'su in his post in UND v Crookston. The game will continue or not depending on what UND decides. Mocking the Herald or UND's schedule, while kind of fun, isn't going to resolve anything so I've edited out the whole text of the original message.

[bisonguy]

UND92,96

Can you enlighten me on a couple questions?

If UND has no desire to play a I-AA team, why did they advertise for a I-AA opponent on the AFCA website?

On that same note, why did UND also advertise as a I-AA school looking for a I-AA or II opponent on the AFCA website?

Why was Dale Lennon quoted this year as telling a recruit that UND would be a I-AA team during his eligibility? (I believe it was a Canadian recruit)

If UND actually schedules non-conf. games with DII teams that have above .500 records, I'll believe that they are concerned about the playoffs. The strength of schedule was a criteria before, it just wasn't quantified into a point breakdown.

[UND92,96]

UND92,96

Can you enlighten me on a couple questions?

If UND has no desire to play a I-AA team, why did they advertise for a I-AA opponent on the AFCA website?

On that same note, why did UND also advertise as a I-AA school looking for a I-AA or II opponent on the AFCA website?

Why was Dale Lennon quoted this year as telling a recruit that UND would be a I-AA team during his eligibility? (I believe it was a Canadian recruit)

If UND actually schedules non-conf. games with DII teams that have above .500 records, I'll believe that they are concerned about the playoffs. The strength of schedule was a criteria before, it just wasn't quantified into a point breakdown.

Just so there's no misunderstanding here, I don't pretend to speak for UND, just as I assume no Bison fan on this board would pretend to be representing NDSU in any sort of an official capacity. I am merely offering opinions and/or speculation.

Would UND accept a game--most likely a home game--against a I-AA team if the guarantee wasn't too extreme? It's certainly possible.

Has UND played a I-AA school since about 1985? No.

Is this merely a coincidence? I don't know, but I'd guess not.

I have no idea what Dale Lennon has said to anybody about division I as it pertains to UND, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if ultimately UND does end up in division I. I would personally prefer to wait to see if the NCAA makes any drastic changes within the next few years regarding the various divisions and their respective requirements.

Regarding scheduling, I have no standing to say anything since I have nothing to do with it. I would like to see UND play a better non-conference schedule, but I think the entire issue is extremely overblown. Regardless, it's hard to argue with the results. UND has been in the playoffs as much or more than anybody in the NCC during the past decade.

[bisonguy]

UND 92,96

All I was looking for was opinion and perspective.

Thanks

[The Sicatoka]

Why is DIAA NDSU so worried about scheduling a DII UND anyway? Why wouldn't NDSU schedule someone else to come in and fill that building?

No one else has answered it.

Let me try:

NDSU has no one else that they can bring in without a six-figure guarantee that will fill FargoDome.

But that's not UND's problem.

[tony]

Please Sicatoka, don't try to speak for NDSU

It cost NDSU nearly six figures to bring in a good DII team - they offered Edinboro that much and they opted to go to Youngstown State instead. If UND is serious about bringing in good non-conference DII teams, they'll run into the same problem that NDSU did.

OTOH, going DI should make it easier for NDSU to find a good team to come in - and since we're replacing UND on the schedule, a home and home wouldn't affect NDSU's number of home games meaning that there wouldn't be any guarantee necessary.

[UND92,96]

It cost NDSU nearly six figures to bring in a good DII team - they offered Edinboro that much and they opted to go to Youngstown State instead. If UND is serious about bringing in good non-conference DII teams, they'll run into the same problem that NDSU did.

I apologize if we're straying somewhat off-topic here, but I have to ask why in the world NDSU would offer nearly six figures to bring in a 5-6 team (2002 record) like Edinboro? I believe that's the equivalent of giving the opponent the revenue of about the first 7,600 tickets sold. Considering I have to assume that the Fargodome gets a decent cut, that wouldn't seem to be leaving very much for NDSU.

[The Sicatoka]

Like I said, I was just trying to answer it.

UND92,96 asks a good question. How does the money work out on that?

[tony]

Crap, my mistake. It was Slippery Rock, not Edinboro. Slippery Rock is a decent DII program. NDSU has met Edinboro in the playoffs before so when I was trying to recall the PSAC team that reportedly bailed on the Bison trip, they were the first name that came to mind (I knew it wasn't IUP).

From a UND fan's perspective, you might wonder what it would take for UND to get a school like Slippery Rock to come for a visit.

From the money perspective, the season tickets sales cover the cost. Any sales beyond that are profit (I think). Point is, that it was getting so hard for NDSU to get decent DII teams that the bottom line was going to suffer one way or another. What would have been better for NDSU: playing a game and making some money or having an open date and not making any? OTOH, the guarantee for Maine wasn't 100k so I'm not sure what all goes into affecting the size teams demand.

[ScottM]

UND92,96 asks a good question. How does the money work out on that?

It doesn't. However, in the halcyon world of the 'SU D1 Rah-Rah Squad, revenues, expenses and reality aren't issues of import.

One of the reasons Nebraska brings in a patsy like Troy State for $250,000 or so, is because they can still sell their place out, beat up on some hapless opponent, give there bench warmers a chance, and make a tidy profit. I doubt the FloodDome has ever been sold out except when UND comes to town, or there's a tractor pull.

[BisonMav]

ScottM Posted on Sep 4 2003, 02:10 PM

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.......One of the reasons Nebraska brings in a patsy like Troy State for $250,000 or so, is because they can still sell their place out, beat up on some hapless opponent, give there bench warmers a chance, and make a tidy profit. 

FYI Michigan backed out of a Home/Home with Nebraska, that is how Troy State got on the schedule. Nebraska usually has a tough non-conference schedule.

[The Sicatoka]

BisonMav:

Not to speak for ScottM, but I believe his point was not "hapless opponent" or "non-conference schedules" but that they (Big Red) needed an opponent (ANY opponent) to fill that 80,000 seat stadium and make a nice sized bank deposit, or as he put it "make a tidy profit."

[BisonMav]

The Sicatoka Posted on Sep 4 2003, 05:14 PM

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BisonMav:

Not to speak for ScottM, but I believe his point was not "hapless opponent" or "non-conference schedules" but that they (Big Red) needed an opponent (ANY opponent) to fill that 80,000 seat stadium and make a nice sized bank deposit, or as he put it "make a tidy profit." 

My apologies, I should have made the post as an FYI, so I would not have been misunderstood.

[tuggnutt]

Crap, my mistake. It was Slippery Rock, not Edinboro. Slippery Rock is a decent DII program. NDSU has met Edinboro in the playoffs before so when I was trying to recall the PSAC team that reportedly bailed on the Bison trip, they were the first name that came to mind (I knew it wasn't IUP).

From a UND fan's perspective, you might wonder what it would take for UND to get a school like Slippery Rock to come for a visit.

From the money perspective, the season tickets sales cover the cost. Any sales beyond that are profit (I think).  Point is, that it was getting so hard for NDSU to get decent DII teams that the bottom line was going to suffer one way or another. What would have been better for NDSU: playing a game and making some money or having an open date and not making any? OTOH, the guarantee for Maine wasn't 100k so I'm not sure what all goes into affecting the size teams demand.

It actually might be a bit easier to lure quality DII teams beacasue with the restructuring of the regions, the GLIAC is now in the smae region as the NCC. That said, Grand Valley State, Saginaw Valley State and Ferris State all would be in-region opponents...something that coaches are looking to have with the playoffs set-up as they are. Just my two cents.