tony

You guys better read this. I got something similar from NDSU this year. You cannot be a booster of UND and go around talking with recruits or their families about this kind of stuff. If you insist on doing this, you are endangering the recruit's eligibility at your school and will likely get yourself banned from any association with UND athletics for life. It does not matter who initiates the contact. So, yeah, unless you guys are making this up or have talked to Amy, there has almost certainly been a violation of NCAA recruiting rules here. It would even be more certain if the posts between mine hadn't all mysteriously disappeared

Moderator edit - Split from NDSU Snakes thread Uh, even if you guys are all related (which you aren't), you are really endangering her future eligibility at UND. Keep it up and, ironically, you guys gossipping could end up forcing her to go to another school to play basketball. Suppose Amy called her up and say, "Hey, we had a guard leave and have an extra scholarship?" If so, did the recruit say, "Hey, I've already verballed to UND." What Coach Ruley said next is all that really matters. If you are so confident that nobody here is violating NCAA rules, ask your compliance officer at UND and see what they think.

I don't think NDSU should be trying to poach UND's recruits once they've verballed. However, right now Coach Ruley isn't able to tell her side of the story. OTOH, there is no possible way any UND fans could know the truth of this matter without talking to the recruit (which would be a serious NCAA violation) or by talking to Amy Ruley. If not, you guys are just repeating gossip and should be (but probably aren't) ashamed of yourselves. As for hockey recruiting - the NCAA doesn't recognize verbal recruits. If they did, your recruit would have to get a release from UND to go anywhere else. That said, schools usually, but not always, respect verbal commitments. If Ruley actually went ahead and did this, the gloves have definitely come off and the respective ADs might want to step in and put an end to this kind of thing before it gets worse.

Uh, if SiouxFanForLife is a Bison fan pretending to be a Sioux fan, I'm going to ban them from Bisonville for life unless they come clean and apologize. I hate that kind of crap.

Jim - I don't mean this is a personal attack but if you think it is, tell me and I'll remove/edit it and apologize later. GrahamKracker, you are being a horrible proponent of your position. In fact, you almost sound like you are trying to drum up emotional backlash to it. I can't speak for them myself, but in my experience Sioux tribal leaders have been very respectful when talking to UND... you just seem hellbent on creating schisms. Obviously, your goal is not to change anybody's mind (or even listen to them), it's just to rip them and call them racists. Well, has it ever occurred to you that maybe some people don't understand the Sioux's position or that they can think the nickname deal is a lot of fuss about nothing and yet not be evil or racist? If you were at the NCAA pleading Standing Rock's case, are these the types of things you think would win them over - insults and hyperbole? On the flip side, the suggestions about retribution against the Sioux for daring to oppose the nickname are just as ridiculous. Do the people doing that really think that is going to strengthen your argument? "We're honoring them but if they make a fuss, we'll go after their reservations, their gambling, cancel their Indian programs, etc." Anyway, why talk about retribution against the Sioux when, as far as I can tell, nobody who supports the nickname think that the Sioux people care? To me, these are irreconciable paradoxes which suggest to me that folks presenting them aren't quite being truthful with themselves. Anyway, if you were at the NCAA pleading UND's case, are these the types of things you think would win them over? Honor the Sioux by emulating the best of their elders, and respect other opinions and other people and think harder before you go spouting off... hehehe, that's advice I sure could learn to take.

The Bismarck Tribune said 7,000... not sure where they got that from. But, hey, that's not why I'm here. I have two questions. 1. Are UND football broadcasts archived anywhere? 2. JBB is up in arms about something AD Buning said about NDSU at half-time in one of the last two games. Anybody know what this could be?

You know in the grand scheme of things, riding in the back of a bus probably wasn't that big of deal. After all, black folks had lots of other more pressing things to worry about - poverty and illiteracy for example. Now, when blacks first started whining (to re-use Fight Sioux supporter's verb of choice) about that, I'm sure that upstanding white folks muttered about retribution and whatnot. I'm sure they claimed that no good black person they knew cared about riding in the back of the bus. I'm sure there were many who preferred it that way. Heck, I bet it was a bunch of pointy-headed liberals from Yankee-land causing problems. I bet some people who didn't want to change the status quo even said that many of their best friends were black people and that they didn't personally know any black people who wanted to make waves. I mean, if riding in the back of the bus was such a big deal, why weren't black people complaining about it decades before they did? Maybe, just maybe, the Sioux tribal councils view this as a symbolic deal. Maybe they viewed the whole "old boys network" that worked behind the scenes with the Board of Higher Ed to block any changes to the precious nickname as a slap in the face, considering that finally UND had looked like they were interested in their input. There is a lot of anger - and I'd even go so far to say hate - from some folks on this issue. If you want to come up with a lasting solution, it's time for UND to go to the Sioux tribes and treat them with some respect and actually listen to them rather then just calling them names. Sometimes it's hard to listen to anybody else when you've gotten all worked up. Maybe it's time that UND folks step back, take a breath, and start reaching out to the Sioux tribes.

According the Duluth paper, UND and NDSU are both recruiting Kiel Fechtelkotter, a RB/LB from NW Wisconsin. His brother was a DL on the Bison team for a while before transferring to UMD. Both are very good athletes.

I was wondering about the timing of the Grand Forks casino plans. The proposed casino in Grand Forks could be used as leverage against the Spirit Lake tribe ("oppose the Fighting Sioux nickname and we'll put your casino out of business by opening one with the Turtle Mountain tribe closer to your customers.") OTOH, if the Spirit Lake tribe thinks that the casino in GF is going ahead no matter what, they might be a little ticked off right now.

I agree. I wish that Gene Taylor hadn't mentioned the grievances. Heck, if he wanted to pay UND back, the poetic way of doing it would be to ask UND AD for a contract next May. Then he could leave it on his desk until January or February of 2006 when he holds a press conference to say that the game isn't going to happen. Up until now, I've been very impressed with the restraint that NDSU's AD and coaches have shown in their public comments. Not so much anymore.

Say what you will about Babich, but I don't think he ran the score up on people... heck, most of the time we were happy to see the offense score as many as they gave up. Moorhead gained 60 yards the whole game, passed 23 times and completed 6 (three of them to Bison players), gave up three TDs on punts, threw a TD pass to Bison db, and fumbled it away twice. No team is going to do that and not get whipped. NDSU only completed five passes on nine attempts, Gordon only got 8 touches, and NDSU ran the ball FORTY-SEVEN times. What else would you have had Babich do? Too bad the Dragons didn't play NDSU in 2002 - they'd have had a shot at revenge.

Hehehe, every time somebody mentions NDSU scheduling Moorhead, you're going to see that list. That's me being proactive.

I don't think the guarantee to Moorhead was 50k. It might have been as high as 30k, but I was thinking it was 15k. However, lest ye try to rewrite history, here's a list of the non-conference schools NDSU scheduled in their last 20 years in D2 (this isn't counting the playoffs): Northern Michigan (five times), TAMUK (three times), Cal Poly-SLO (twice), Minn. State - Moorhead (twice), Angelo State (twice), UC Davis (twice), Angelo State (twice), Indiana PA, Grand Valley State, Pittsburg State, Delta State, Valdosta State, West Georgia, Emporia State, Ferris State, Western State, Winona State, Tusculum, Montana, Concordia-St. Paul. Moorhead State is the exception to the rule - 18 of the 30 games NDSU played were vs teams that have played in a national championship game either before or since. Now, which programs in DII do you suppose even came close to putting the type of non-conference schedule together that NDSU did? My point is (finally) that NDSU wasn't spending big money for the best programs in DII and *still* the common knowledge, not just among UND fans, is that NDSU loaded up the schedule with weak teams.

You do understand that a move now by NDSU could work well for NDSU and a move later (or no move at all) by UND could work better for UND, don't you? Their situations are different. It makes absolutely no sense to say that only NDSU's or only UND's decision is The Right One (if that is, in fact, what you were trying to say). Heck, who knows? Maybe NDSU is in a no-win situation and we only picked DI because it was the only option that gives us a shot of ending well. On a more philosophical note, very rarely does time settle anything. It has to be a pretty clear-cut case of rousing success or abyssmal failure to make that kind of "What if" judgement. Even if we had a parallel universe to look at, one in which NDSU stays in DII, so that you could compare the two situations a decade or two down the road, it still might settle the issue definitively. Sirhinn, I'm the only one who has ever gave a UND fan crap about a signature and that was because they used it to take a shot at an NDSU player. Geez, does it really offend you that ndsubison is so optimistic about NDSU's title shot this year?

Well, I'd suggest bringing up that study if UND looks at moving to DI, RD17. Better yet, I suggest you write a letter to the Grand Forks Herald warning UND not to go DI - better nip this baby in the bud. In fact, I suggest that all like-minded UND fans, especially those who have been critical of NDSU's twenty-year sprint to DI, to get in contact with your new AD and let him know what a huge mistake it'd be for UND to go DI.

Hehehe, you're twisting my words again. I actually wrote that I'm in "no rush" to see UND and NDSU on the same field, mostly because I think the rivalry hasn't been bringing out the good in people. With a new AD and a new President at UND, maybe the climate will improve. If not, maybe it's time for both schools to build some new rivalries based on mutual respect and good sportsmanship.

Um, first of all, I didn't say that changes in DII "radically negatively impacted" NDSU's football program. You said that, not me. NDSU has won 69% of its games the last six years - that's even counting the crappy 2-8 season - and had better attendance than any DII school during that time frame. The "dramatic changes" I was talking about were more about membership. Yeah, the scholarship cuts hurt, but they were just a natural consequence of wholesale membership changes in DII. Since DII continues to attract smaller and smaller schools while losing its strongest programs, I think most people would agree that further scholarship cuts will happen. However, the membership changes are at the center of the problem. Look at your basketball schedule - that's the present and near-future of DII. As an NDSU guy, I wasn't comfortable with that. At UND, your athletic department is built around hockey so what happens in DII is kind of a sidelight. I suppose you are wondering, if everybody operates under the same scholarship limits, why it would affect NDSU adversely while formerly weak programs seemed to flourish. Heck if I know for sure... maybe NDSU was unable to sign the same quantity of quality of players; these players ended up going to other NCC schools; as a result these schools were better able to compete with NDSU; as a result of that, they were able to recruit more effectively against NDSU and so on. OTOH, maybe it was purely coincidental that other NCC teams got better and NDSU got worse when the scholarship cuts took place. Moreover, Roger Thomas all but said UND would be forced to leave DII if this last proposed scholarship cut came into affect. If you really think that three prior scholarship cuts shouldn't have affected NDSU, then you really must have been puzzled why this last cut was viewed as being so bad that UND was prepared to abandon an extremely public, principled stand because of it. Yet, from what I can see, you didn't think to ask what all the fuss was about back then. Funny how that works, isn't it? Anyway, I know why I wanted NDSU to move to DI, but UND's situation is fundamentally different. While I like arguing with UND fans (hopefully good naturedly), I'm in no rush to see NDSU and UND on the same field and would prefer UND to stay in DII. However, I'll let you guys do what you think is best for your school and not criticize you for it as long as you extend NDSU the same courtesy.

Hehehehe. I had a nice, long reply here but didn't want to get into a whole big thing. The Sicatoka can think want he wants

NDSU has five national championships in three different sports in the last eight years, not zero. In the last eight years NDSU was in DII, NDSU had six national championships in four sports. Not that it matters. I'm just pointing this out because NDSU deserves credit for what it accomplished. Anyway, while NDSU move was made a little easier because it already had a strong athletic department, this was not the reason for the move. NDSU moved up primarily because of changes in the nature of Division II. Sure, NDSU has changed a bit too, but DII has changed dramatically. UND's situation is different because your flagship sport hasn't been affected by these changes in DII. If you guys decide to stay in DII forever, more power to you.

The Origin and Behavior of Devils Lake by John P. Bluemle I thought the above link made for an interesting read. You can jump right to the conclusions toward the end if you want to get to these quotes:

I'm not sure what the solution is. There probably isn't one. An outlet won't affect the lake level that much, and I'm pretty sure that most of the former wetlands, whether they were being drained or not before, are now brimming with water. Heck, I remember dry lake beds being used for hay that are now full of water deep enough to water ski on. I think that in the longterm figuring out a way to stablize the lake level might be more important than simply draining the lake. Closed systems like DL are, by their nature, unstable. If all this lake water evaporates, the concentrations of minerals and whatnot in DL are going to rocket up. I think that's why some people want to revive Garrison... get fresh water in, drain "salty" water out, and keep the lake level more stable (and, at the same time, provide a longterm solution for the Valley's water needs). However, this will only help keep the lake from getting too dry and, if the wet-cycle lasts several years longer, nothing will prevent the lake from rising to the natural spill-level elevation (1457 feet) . Being a jerk about the real problems this is causing in Devils Lake and wrongly blaming farmers is not going to solve any problems. I did find a more recent article about wetlands storage potential and the attempts to restore wetlands (havent' read this yet myself): Wetland storage BTW, current elevation of Devils Lake is 1448.5 feet and rising very slowly. Acreage is around 135,000 and it contains 2.6 million acre-feet of water. It will take a LOT of acre-feet to get to 1457. Anyway, the lake level hasn't been at 1439 feet since 1997 or so. And the wetland report quoted by sprig... well, that was from 1983! The interesting thing about the Devils Lake basin is that it appears that wetland seepage ends up in Devils Lake eventually... that's why the lake sometimes rises in drought periods. That's also probably why models don't do a good job of predicting lake levels. Anyway, I'm skeptical about information from the Save the Sheyenne folks - they might have some good points, but they do an awful lot of cherry-picking of data to support their arguments. They aren't interested in getting at the truth;, they are interested in stopping an outlet and, as such, they are not a good source of information. Like the Canadian scientists say, there isn't much data out there to go on.

Well, if much of this cost is because Fargo metro triples in size by 2050 (and I think that's what the planners are saying), then I guess it's a case of taking the bad with the very good. Personally, I'd rather be dealing with the problem of the Valley outgrowing it's water supply because of growth than the solution of having the Valley's growth stagnate. There is plenty of good news. First, they've started planning and looking for solutions before there is pressing problem. Second, if the F-M population really does nearly triple, there will be a lot more people to share the cost. Third, because the most likely solution involves reviving Garrison Diversion, there will be probably be Federal help to pay for things (so far that's only $200 million).

If you can't see similarities, you are not thinking hard enough. However, the differences are probably just as interesting. Similarities: 1. UND fans call themselves Sioux but they are not Sioux. Ajax supporters call themselves Jews but they are not Jews. 2. Fans from opposing teams act boorishly - EXTREMELY boorishly in some cases. 3. Fans of the teams using the nicknames have appropriated the symbols of another culture without really understanding them. UND fans aren't becoming Sioux. Ajax fans aren't becoming Jews. 4. Fans of Ajax claim to be honoring Jews. Fans of UND claim to be honoring the Sioux. Now ask yourself this: do you really think Ajax fans are honoring Jews? If they aren't (and, for God's sake, who in their right mind thinks what they are doing is honoring Jews?), does this have any bearing on what UND is doing? 5. Any suggestion that the use of Jew or Sioux is inappropriate is met with vehement opposition (as an aside, if the Sioux have more important things to worry about than how UND, their fans, and opposing fans use and misuse their name and whatnot, then it's equally certain that UND has more important things to worry about than the nickname of their sports teams - sports teams are, after all, only incidental to UND's primary function. Differences: 1. Ajax is a business and is not sponsored by the state. It's just their fans doing this on their own. UND is a state run operation. 2. Ajax is not selling "Jewish-branded" gear. UND is selling "Sioux-branded" gear. 3. Some of the stuff that the fans of opposing teams do is unbelievable! It would be like having fans of opposing teams start yapping about Wounded Knee or something. In the Netherlands there seems to be a genuinely scary undercurrent to things to a degree that would not be tolerated by any normal person. 4. In the Netherlands, the Jewish population seems afraid to say anything and prefers to keep a low profile to avoid stirring things up. At least in the US, the Sioux tribes haven't been afraid to speak their minds. 5. Government representatives in the Netherlands aren't telling Jews to be quiet about complaining. In North Dakota, quasi-governmental guys like Earl Strinden are doing just that. You know, things like, "We'll cut funding for Indian programs if you make us give up the nickname" or "Changing the nickname will set Indian-White relations back decades." Oh well, doubtless I'll be called a jerk, a troll, an idiot and all that once more. However, this does suggest a possible solution. UND could drop their nickname completely and let the fans adopt whatever nickname they prefer. Then it becomes a free speech issue.

Just so happens that I'm moving to Amsterdam in a few weeks and guess what? They have a nickname controversy of their own there. A Dutch Soccer Riddle: Jewish Regalia Without Jews I see some parallels between UND's use of "Fighting Sioux" and Ajax supporters' use of "Jews" as a nickname for athletic teams. Of course, there are some major differences too. Edit: I apologize, my link requires you to register. I've found some others: Here here Here