82SiouxGuy

I have a solution for the nickname-at-all-costers. UND can create an intramural team and call it the Fighting Sioux. After all, if they get their way that might be the highest level of sports that UND can offer. They can wear all their gear, go to the games, and yell Go Sioux all they want. All of the games could be held at Ralph Engelstad, in the big arena. That would satisfy everyone. How about it Fetch, does it work for you? And then the fans of the University of North Dakota can move on to compete in Division I.

The current issue is going on because the NCAA has created the issue. There have been people complaining about the nickname since the 1960's at least. But the ban on Native nicknames and imagery by the NCAA was put into effect in 2005. And it is coming to a head at UND now. You are what we are now calling a nickname-at-all-cost Sioux fan. You want to keep the nickname no matter what damage it does to the school. You believe that a game is a game, and you think it is perfectly all right for UND to play games against a community college. Most of us believe that UND should be playing schools more its own size. And you don't seem to understand why people on this board might be unhappy with your beliefs. If you are going to keep posting an unpopular position you are going to keep getting posts you don't like. By the way, you weren't eligible to sign the petitions, you have to be a North Dakota resident.

The name only exists at UND because of sports. Without the sports, no one would be talking about the Fighting Sioux. And if you don't like talking about a new name, don't read it. You can't separate the nickname and sports.

First of all, "your" referral has to survive the Supreme Court. If it does that, it has to be voted on in June. That's if there are enough qualified signatures after the Secretary of State finished his review. And if it is successful, it still could be removed by the state legislature by a 2/3 majority. That is approximately the percentage that voted for the repeal in November. UND supporters will fight through each step, trying to educate the population of North Dakota at the same time. All of those steps would be well before another referendum on the issue. And of course those playoffs were in Division 2, that's what division UND was in before they started the transition. What other playoffs would they have been in? Unfortunately, if the nickname-at-all-costers are successful it may be the last playoffs that UND sees for a long, long time. Maybe even in hockey.

We have been without a playoff system or home court advantage in the playoffs during the transitition. Before that UND was a regular in the playoffs and normally had home field. Both are important to the future. You can live without them most of us can't. Now we're back to the alumni versus people without a real connection to the University. As I explained yesterday, being under sanctions will hurt the University and the Athletic Department. While you can live without them, the University will have a hard time living without them. This is very much about who the University should be playing. And it isn't about the "super cool, neato" logo and nickname. You truly do not understand the situation. Remember, without the Athletic Department there is no logo or nickname.

Do you consider that an actual part of the media? The owner certainly isn't a journalist.

Every person that you have been communicating with is a Sioux fan and a University of North Dakota fan. There is a small group of people on this site that would be willing to let the University of North Dakota athletic teams die if they could keep the Sioux name. Many of the rest of us are very tired of that attitude, which is where the alumni versus sports only fans discussion got started. You might want to realize what these people are trying to say, and not take it all so personal. Here is a small tip for you. Try typing your responses on Word or whatever word processing software you use. When you have it the way you want, copy and paste into the Reply box here. That should correct most spelling problems and eliminate that issue for your posts. Then you might be able to get your thoughts through more clearly. Clear communications is important if you plan to get into the media.

Look again at the article you linked to earlier. They got a total of 3 letters, 2 from Standing Rock and 1 from the University president. They got zero response from Spirit Lake. All they wanted was 1 official written response granting approval form 1 namesake tribe. The only official tribal response they got was from Ron His Horse is Thunder, who had been against the name forever. Of course they were going to deny the appeal with that response. The second tribal response was not from an official that was able to speak for the tribe. Spirit Lake refused to give any input of any kind. The tribal council at Spirit Lake could have communicated their approval during the appeal process and avoided all of this mess the past 5 or 6 years. They had passed a resolution in 2000 to support the name, but they refused to say anything in 2005 or 2006. All they had to do was say "Yes, we passed the resolution in 2000 and nothing has changed" as long as they put it in writing. As Sic noted, they wouldn't even speak to Kupchella. That silence spoke volumes. It also shows some of the potential issues that you might run into when dealing with tribal governments. I'm not going to blame Spirit Lake for this mess. They could have changed it, but they didn't cause it. UND has not done a great job of working with the reservations over the years. They have great programs for the students, but don't have great relationships with the tribal governments. And the NCAA has stepped way over the line in handling this issue. That is wear the vast majority of the blame lies. Both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock could have changed the outcome if they had reacted differently.

Here is a link to a statement from Bernard Franklin discussing the issue, http://archives.republicans.edlabor.house.gov/archive/hearings/109th/fc/ncaa121506/franklin.htm. In it he talks about the policy and the appeal process. The sentence below explains a lot. Think about if you wanted to go to graduate school. You can tell them that you graduated from an accredited school. But they don't care about that. They want an official transcript from that school. They want official, written confirmation. That's what they wanted from any tribe, official confirmation. Spirit Lake refused to give that. We all want to hate the NCAA. But they did not treat UND any different from any other school until the lawsuit was filed. UND only needed official approval from 1 namesake tribe. None stepped up. Applying a very different standard during the original process by requiring 2 tribes at that time would have been an easy lawsuit to win. The NCAA didn't do that, and that's why UND didn't sue on that point.

Every school was required to get written, unambiguous approval from 1 tribe to get put on the approval list. You are right, Spirit Lake had given approval in 2000, but the NCAA wanted proof that the approval still existed. If you read the settlement, the only approval needed from Spirit Lake was written approval from someone with the authority to bind the tribe to a contract. They were willing to use that 2000 approval if the tribe would just put it in writing for them to show that it was still in effect. The Tribal Council would not do that. They didn't even want to put it in writing after the vote in 2009. It took a while before they agreed to do that. UND only had to meet the same standard as every other tribe until the lawsuit was filed. That would have been an easy lawsuit to win, if the NCAA had a separate standard for UND. The standard was written approval from 1 tribe. UND could not get that at the time.

Many of the petitions were signed by people that don't realize the damage that will be done to the University, including some that thought it was just a show of support for the name.. Many were signed by people that believed others who said that it wouldn't damage the University. Some were signed by NDSU fans because they hoped that it would damage UND. Yes there are Native Americans that support the use of the nickname. Some of them are very passionate. There are others that don't support it. And probably a lot who don't think it affects them much either way. The problem is that UND needed that support back in 2005 and 2006 when the issue first became important to the NCAA. If one tribe had stepped forward at that time we wouldn't have the problem right now. No one did. So UND sued the NCAA. They settled the lawsuit, and the terms included giving UND 3 extra years to find support, but they had to get both Spirit Lake and Standing Rock to support them. Spirit Lake agreed in 2009. Standing Rock has been against the nickname since at least 1992. Every other tribe in the region is against UND using the nickname. You want the NA to speak, that's what they have said. That is why UND is in the position that it is. Frankly, most of us believe that preventing damage from being done to the University is the best case scenario right now.

There has been no decision made on how a new name would be chosen. The NCAA requires that the Fighting Sioux nickname goes away to be removed from the sanction list. Then people can start talking about a new name. The important thing right now is to realize that keeping the nickname will hurt the school and the teams. That is a bad thing. People that actually care about the school and the teams need to realize that. You can still wear your Sioux stuff any time you want. You can even yell Sioux. But it can't stay as the official name and they have to quit using the name and logo on uniforms, in programs, etc. Picking a new name is an entirely different story. There are different opinions about who should be involved in that. Students, alumni and employees are probably the first groups. Season ticket holders are another group that should be considered, since they put money into the program to help it run. After that it gets more difficult. Not everyone is going to be supportive and do what is best for the school, so it is hard to know where to draw the lines. But as I said, we aren't near that point right now. That may be 2 or more years away. We will worry about it when the time comes. Right now it is important to do what is right for the school and the teams.

I'm impressed. You've got more stuff than me. I always wanted a baseball jersey but the only ones I saw were in kids sizes. But on your main point, both you and geaux_sioux stated it very well. It is time to move on to the next chapter of this story.

You might want to learn the whole story. Fightingsioux4life, along with most people on this board, are fans of the University of North Dakota and fans of the Fighting Sioux. Most have been fans much longer than you. Yet they have realized that the sanctions put in place by the NCAA because of the continued use of the nickname will damage the Athletic Department and the University of North Dakota. Your heart may be in the right place, but your grasp of the situation is very lacking.

The vast majority of people that buy tickets for sporting events now will also buy them if the name is changed. We go to watch the games, not look at the "super cool, neato logo". There will be some that protest. But the better schedules will bring in even more people for football and basketball, while the Ralph will remain full as long as they are winning.

No, I didn't beg my parents to go see Dale get his mustache cut off. I went to school with him at UND. I have been a fan of UND sports more than twice as long as you've been alive. You keep saying that sports don't matter, but the only reason you are interested in the nickname is because of sports. If UND didn't have football and basketball and hockey they wouldn't have the nickname. And you wouldn't love the nickname. You say that winning doesn't matter. The tradition of UND athletics involves winning. If it weren't for winning and success there wouldn't be the same interest in the program or the name. You mention Dale Lennonn as someone that you look up to. Maybe you should listen to what he has to say. This is from a story in yesterday's Grand Forks Herald about a letter to the editor he sent in. He said a lot more. Coach Mussman said similar things in another letter to the newspaper. So did a bunch of UND Hall of Fame football players in yet another letter. Coach Hakstol said the same thing in his news conference on Wednesday. These are all people that have a much deeper connection to the Athletic Department, the teams and the nickname and logo than you do. Maybe you should listen to what they are saying. By the way, it's also Dean Blais and Gene Roebuck.

The name hasn't won a single game. The name hasn't scored a single goal, or a touchdown. The name hasn't intercepted a pass. The name didn't create any of the tradition. The name is great. But it's the people that have created the traditions. It is the success of the people that have inspired the support. It's the teams full of players and coaches that we cheer for. If you are a fan of the team or the school you are cheering for them, not the name. The name is something you use when you are cheering for that team or that school. Simple question for you. If you went to a game and the uniforms were laying out on the field with the nickname, would those uniforms be able to beat a team of real players? I don't think so. The name doesn't win games, the team wins games. There is a difference being an alumnus rather than just a fan. The alum have more of a connection to the entire University, not just rooting for a team. There is even a difference between being a student and being an alumnus. Students are a very important part of the equation. They are part of continuing the traditions that the alumni are already part of. And maybe you will see the difference when you are actually a student at the University of North Dakota rather than a student somewhere else and rooting for the Fighting Sioux. Remember, it isn't the University of Fighting Sioux, it's the University of North Dakota. That is a major difference when you are a student or alumnus.

Quit confusing the issue. "There's a big bully on our playground and we aren't going to take it any more. They're evil and must be stopped no matter the cost. Good will prevail over evil in the end." Did I miss any of the nickname-at-any-cost groups arguments?

You do know how courts work, don't you? Nothing that any of us does will help Spirit Lake in the lawsuit. We don't know how long it is going to take. And we don't know what else will happen between now and then. Nice job with the name calling again.

It's sad that some people are so attached to a symbol that they can't see the truth in front of them. We do know for a fact that the school will suffer some damage. Schools have already refused to schedule games. Athletes have decided they weren't interested in attending UND because of the sanctions. And this is just the beginning. Of course you don't care if there is damage done, you would give up the entire Athletic Department rather than give up the name.

First we'll see what the Supreme Court has to say. With any luck we won't have to worry about it in June.

Actually, where his degrees come from IS relevant to the discussion and it's the part that you don't seem to get. My degree says University of North Dakota also. The University of North Dakota is going to be damaged by this nickname issue getting dragged out. And we don't hate fans that aren't alums, but we aren't too fond of people who will willing damage the school that is very important to us. It just seems that a lot of them are people like you, people that have no allegiance to the school other than watching some sporting events.

Funny, I have season tickets and I don't feel gouged. Actually, UND doesn't charge season ticket holders any extra for the football games right now because they have plenty of seats. Since hockey sells out most of the games they can do it. And I believe that they will sell single game seats at a premium for select games in football. When demand is high enough, and they start to sell out football games on a regular basis, I expect them to increase prices for premium games across the board.

We get it. The NCAA is the boogieman. It is their fault, not the fault of the nickname. Here are the facts. The NCAA has a policy against using Native American nicknames and imagery. It is arbitrary and certainly is not fair. At this point in time it is legal and enforcable. The University of North Dakota and the state of North Dakota have agreed in court to follow that policy. Following that policy, continuing to use the nickname will result in the loss of hosting of NCAA playoff games and not being able to use the nickname during said playoffs. It will result in schools refusing to schedule regular season games with UND, possibly going as far as interfering with the relationship just getting started with the Big Sky Conference. As a matter of fact, that loss of scheduled games has already occurred. It is already interferring with the recruitment of athletes to the University of North Dakota. That will continue and possibly increase across all sports. Other sanctions could possibly result from conferences of which UND is or could become a member. I may be missing some current or potential results, but while on sanctions none of them are good. The Feds aren't coming to the rescue on this issue. It has been an active issue with the NCAA since 2005 and no one has said a word. They aren't jumping in now, it is a lose-lose situation for them. The NCAA is not going to back down from the state of North Dakota. They have already proven that. And they have proven it in many other cases across the country. Continuing to use the nickname is a bad idea as long as the sanctions are in place. The only thing on the horizon that could have a chance at getting rid of the sanctions is the Spirit Lake lawsuit. I don't know if it has a very good chance, and I believe that it is going to take years to get through the courts if it does succeed. People have to let UND drop the nickname now so that the damage of the sanctions is limited, keeping the nickname longer will increase the amount of damage done to the school and the Athletic Department.

You admit that you don't understand the process, but you're sure that your side will win. You don't care what damage is done to UND or the Athletic Department, as long as you get to keep the nickname and logo. You call people names instead of supporting your case with actual facts. You believe that the people that have a very limited connection to the school (they really like the cool nickname and logo) should have more say in the matter than the people that have a deep connection to the school. Does that pretty much cover your position on the issue, or am I missing something?