specifics

Actually the context of the argument was very broad, that being someone said the referees do not impact the outcome of the game. I belive ND PRIDE was simply proving the point that they do in fact strongly impact the game. As a matter of fact, every penalty called impacts the outcome of the game in some way. Stating that those first two situations are rare is ludacris. Maybe with the time of the goals scored but it is not uncommon for a goal to be disallowed when it was in fact a goal.

A referee can not singlehandely take the game from one team and give it to another. They can however make it very very difficult for one team to become the victor in a game in which they deserve it. In the North v. Red River in which North was winning for the majority of the game, the penalty situation did not begin in the 3rd period. Both teams had substantial penalties but the trouble started for North in the 2nd period. At one point in time Fargo North was killing a 5 on 3 penalty for 4 minutes. Red River did not score once during this power play. Fargo North did not have any 5 on 3 powerplays in that game but they did have some powerplays. Now it is a matter of opinion of what penalties were "good" calls and what calls were "bad" calls but in my opinion the game was really snatched from the hands of the Fargo North players. Late in the 3rd I remember seeing a smallish forward for the Spartans ride out a Red River defenseman after he dumped the puck in and was called for interference. I dont care how hard he hits him that defensemen is fair game for a hit immediatly after he dumps the puck in. Add to the fact one of Red Rivers goals was kicked in and I think it's fairly easy to see that Red River had a helping hand to get into that state championship game.

South was not the best team in the state because they did not win the state tournement? Be realistic for a minute. I've already used this analogy but was the 1980 olympic team the best team in the world when they won olympic gold? No! If they were in fact the best team in the world we would not have to movie today entitled "Miracle". Because thats what it was, IT WAS A MIRACLE. The best team does not always win. Fargo South was in fact the best team in the state day in and day out last year and it was also a MIRACLE to see two Grand Forks teams in the state championship last year. The state title is not awarded to the best team that year, it is entitled to the team that plays best in 3 games. Can anyone in here honestly say that the best team ALWAYS wins. Because that is exactly what everyone of you who appose the fact that Fargo South was the best have said. Junior24, you asked how can I say they were the best team when they did not win the state championship... Well Junior24, let me ask you, Does the best team win all the time? Answer that.

I wasnt debating whether or not it is more satisfying to be the best team in the state or to be the team to win the title. I said FSH was the best team. I didnt say they celebrated the fact they were the best even though they did not win the state championship. At least we agreed on the fact that Fargo South was in fact the past team last year and they will be the best team this year. Thank you.

The best team in the state for that season is NOT always the team that wins the championship. The team that plays best that night wins the championship. Here's a little something for you, in 1980 the US mens olympic team beat Russia for the first time in twenty years. Now, are you going to sit there and tell me the Russia was not in fact the better of the two teams? It wouldnt have been a big deal if USA was the best team in the world that year... But they were not the best team in the world, the were the best team in the world that night. There is a huge difference. If given the chance to ask a member of the 1980 team who was the best team in 1980, I'd be willing to bet they would tell you Russia aswell. Fargo South was 12-1-1 in conference play last season. They defeated Grand Forks Red River by a combined score of 5-2. They also beat Grand Forks Central by a combined score of 9-4. Both of those are fairly significant margins in the game of hockey. Add both of those together and they beat the Grand Forks school 14-6. 14 to 6. That is a very significant margin wouldnt you agree? After going undefeated against both these teams how can you say that throughout the entire season, that one of them was in fact the best team in the state? You can't and they weren't. They were however the best team that night.

To end all further doubt to you who believe Fargo South will not be the number one team in the EDC... Great hockey teams are composed of three essential parts. A great defense, a great offense, and a great leader. I'm going to show you why Fargo South possesses not one, not two, but all three of these qualities. -A great defense-.... Fargo South's defensive squad is led by senior Erick Galt. Galt is without a doubt the best defensemen in the state, and has recently proved, maybe the best D Minnesota aswell. They return 4 more d-man with significant playing time. They also return a very talented goaltender in Sean Diechert. Sean was named to the National Festival team this summer and posted respectable numbers. A great offense- Fargo South's offense is headed by Senior Paul Weisgarber. Paul is currently one of the scoring leaders in the Elite1 league. A league that is said to be "about a half of step down from the USHL" by USHL coach Todd Knott. Paul is one of those players that plays day in and day out, every second of every period and will carry his team to victory. South returns 9 more forwards with significant playing time to help back Mr. Weisgarber. They also return 4 forwards with 20 points or more. A great leader- South has 4 of them. Galt, Weisgarber, Grant Larson, and Adam Campell all possess a great work ethic, positive attitude, and great skill. These four players will help tie all loose ends that may arise within the team. There is not another team in the region with the depth of Fargo South. That will be the number one reason for there success this season. Even though last year was a all GF final, the era of Grand Forks dominating high school hockey is gone. At least not this year...

Maybe a more realistic EDC ranking would be... 1. Fargo South 2. Grafton 3. Grand Forks Red River 4. Fargo North 5. Grand Forks Central 6. Jamestown 7. West Fargo 8. Shanley 9. Whapeton In my opinion it's very difficult to assume who will fill the 3rd through 6th spot in the EDC rankings. After South and Grafton their are no real standout teams so I think you have to put the teams in order of certain individuals that these teams have that may make a difference. I'm not saying because of one or two players these teams will succeed but, because we have so little information thats how I decided to fill the final spots. The top players for each teams in my opinion are... Fargo South- Paul Weisgarber, Erick Galt, Grant Larson, Adam Campell, Sean Diechert (G) Grafton- Paul and Tom Campell, Zach Miller, Andy Peterson Grand Forks Red River- Marc Mihulka and Jarrett Galbreath Fargo North- Tyler Klein and Nick Klenow Grand Forks Central- Jon Greicar Jamestown- Zach Welding West Fargo- Darek Knaus Shanley- Marc Harrie Whapeton- ....sorry... Obviously the teams with more players listed are more talented and thats why they are at the top of list at this point in time. I guess we'll see how accurate they really are in about 3 weeks?

Really? Who would play defense, block shots, kill penalties,... and so on. That MIGHT win you games in high school but last time I checked teams pick up players for reasons other than if they can put the puck in the net. There would be chaos with no defensive role players, what would a team of goal scorers do against a team equally talented, but had good defense aswell? They would not do anything, they would lose.

Siouxfan3- When are players selected for teams because of the points they had the previous season? It's not reasonable to compare points between players to figure which of the two is indeed a better player. Is it possible a player get 10 lucky goals in a season and finish with 20 total? Is it possible for a very talented player to be snake bitten and finish with 10? Yes and Yes. Just because your the leading scorer in the state that does not always mean your the best player, or best scorer for that matter. While on the topic... Have you ever heard of role players? Do want Wayne Gretzky on your checking line? Would you put Donald Brashear on your number one power play? These are roles that these athletes play. No team wants 18 pure goal scores. Think about that...

Siouxfan3... Your knowledge of hockey in North Dakota and beyond is obviously very minimal. If a representive from a USHL team takes interest in a player and asks him if he will come play for that team, and is then injured or sick during tryouts is it reasonable to think that the coach of that team will forget about that player and select a weaker player that was able to attend the tryout. No. Thats not how hockey works and thats not how life works. In that regard, North Dakota Select coach's have seen almost all the kids coming to tryout at some point in time and know their calibur. So if some very talented players from lets say Grand Forks, Fargo, Grafton, and Minot are unable to attend the tryout but express their interest in playing for that team to the coach, he is going to leave some slots for those players to try to earn. Because that is what these players have to do, EARN the spots. They want to put together the best possible team that they can, and thats what they are going to do. So by sending those Williston boys to tryout against the Grand Forks kids as you claim, is actually just sending them to tryout against other players, that were just unable to make the tryouts, players that wanted to be there, that should have been there, but for some reason (injury,illness,funeral,wedding...) they werent. And if the kids from Grand Forks are better, the have every right to be on that team. So if the kids from Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot, etc. are better than the kids from Williston, do those kids from Williston deserve to make the team ahead of them. No way.

I've heard this debate about Galt and Jundt go on long enough. Erick Galt is no doubt the top defenseman on the Team Great Plains Elite One hockey team. Not only is Galt a coach's dream on defense, he is better than most forwards... even from his defensive role. I do not believe Jundt was invited to try out for Team Great Plains, but I could be mistaken. Not only is Galt the 2nd leading scorer of all defensemen, he is out scoring MANY future NHL draft picks... think about it.

XtotheZ- The purpose of playing a forward at defense on the penalty kill would not be for "offensive spark". You want your four best penalty killers on the ice at one time and if 3 of those players happen to be forwards, it would only be logical to put of one them at defense. On the topic of Walski not being on Oklands level (at the same age) the reasoning is obvious. Can you find anything that Walski accomplished when he was a junior and senior in high school that Okland has not? Okland was a National Select 17 standout, alternate for the National team, and made the NAHL's FM Jets as a junior. The NAHL rarely recruits players to forgoe their high school team to play at the Jr level and for a team to take Okland that says numbers about his maturity and level of play. Also, you say he is a "backup" for the Jets, in a sense you are correct. But had Okland not left the Jets after making the preliminary roster for the Tri-City Storm of the USHL I am confident he would split games 50/50 at the very least. After Oklands departure the Jets picked up a 3rd goalie, now making Elliot one of FOUR goalies. Do you honestly think they are going to just hand him the starting spot after leaving to play for another team? It wouldnt matter how good he was, he would have to earn that spot all over again. Someone asked what Okland will be doing this season... as of right now Elliot is rostered with the FM Jets and has not dressed in the last two games. I doubt he is pleased with the four goalie situation and that might be the main reason he is considering playing before season and after with the Jets and taking his spot between the pipes to North in the meantime. It has to be a tough situation for a high school kid or any kid for that matter and I wish him the best of luck.

1. no one can be fresh for six minutes 2. North was weak last year, even by thier standards. 3. irmen and potunly were sophmores (very very good sophmores but still sophmores.) 4. Walski was hot, he played out of his mind. ( okland could do the same but thats asking alot.) 5. please give me a reason on why one of norths top two forwards would play defence on the penalty kill? is that or isn't one of the most ridiculous ideas you've ever heard. 6. okland won't being playing for north anyway, so we can probably stop talking about him as a member of that team. 7. rolling two lines is a poor idea, but yes they do need a workout program. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make some good points XtotheZ. North would most definitly struggle trying to roll two lines. The only way I could see that working is with a very intense workout program to prepare their top players for this kind of use. On the other hand, how long does it take an elite player to recover from a shift? Thats tough to calculate being that practically all atheletes have different levels of endurance and so forth. However, last season believe Nick Klenow played 6 straight minutes against Red River on consecutive penalty kills and North successfully killed the power play. I believe they played with one forward on D for this time because they had so many D in the box. So if endurance throughout the game is the issue I don't think it will play a major factor in most games. I also believe it would be reasonable to believe that Klein may play defense on the power play or penalty kill. I remember seeing forward Chris Cusey out on D for Norths top power play but that might change with the coaching change. My point- It will be very difficult for a team to score more than one goal on Elliot Okland. In 2001 a goalie named Aaron Walski set a record against Grand Forks Red River roughriders in the state title game for saves and pushed the game into 5 overtimes. Who was taking all these shots anyway? Future Minnesota Gophers Danny Irmen and Ryan Potunly thats who. If Aaron Walski, a goalie not even on the same level as Mr. Okland was able to stop two of the WCHA's best in their high school days, with those facts how will Okland perform against players that are far worse than Irmen and Potunly were in high school? You tell me...

My mistake. I should have emphasized "players" when I said North will have four players that would kill Souths top power play. To play the penalty kill you don't have to be super skilled, or even very good for that matter... At least in ND highschool hockey. If you a a great skater you can shut down a very good powerplay by pressuring the puck with good speed and and recovering quickly. Word is Nate Mickelberg is back at North and I dont think anyone will disagree that he is a fantastic skater. A fantastic skater would be able to do these things such as recovering quickly and pressuring the puck correct? I don't think playing one forward at defense on the penalty kill would pose much of problem either... Refering back to my previous post, I don't think a player such as Tyler Klein would have any trouble playing defense on the penatly kill. When saying it would take 30-40 breakaways to score on Elliot Okland, it was an exaggeration and I should have made that clear. It was simply a mathematical function to the fact that he stopped 9-10 breakaways at a NAHL practice last season. On the other hand I would not doubt that it would take twenty breakaways for Souths top scorer to score three goals on Okland. Saying North will be facing 40-50 shots a game against the top teams in the East is outrageous. Wahpeton faced an average of 37 shots on net last year and I would assume North will be better than Wahpeton correct? Also, North's defense may however be weak, but are they the only players on the ice stopping an oncoming rush? Many teams will have a difficult time getting the puck past their own blueline when Norths top line is on the ice so in that regard I don't think their D will pose too much of a threat for that instance. Just my opinion...

I agree and disagree. Okland would face many shots, but my son was on his Jets team last season and when I got off work one day I thought I'd stop by and watch a practice. I was late, and the team was finishing up with a shootout. I only saw about 10 breakaways on Elliot but from what I remember he stopped all of them but one. These are future division one and division three players. By any account a team might need 30-40 breakaways to get 3-4 goals? Maybe, that's just the math of it. Agreed, South could tear a team apart on the powerplay. But with Norths new coach I doubt he will allow them to become so undisciplined that they would take multiple penalties against at team such as South. Also, In the event of a South powerplay I doubt they would kill North on it. I would actually be impressed if South scored on Norths penalty kill . I believe North will have four players capable of defending Souths top five. I was very impressed with junior forward Tyler Klein and I would say it would be reasonable to say he would pose a major problem for the South powerplay. South definitly has the depth but I wouldnt count North out just yet.

On topic of the best teams in the state, the favorite has to be Fargo South with the depth that they have. However, in some instances a team with lack of depth is "carried" by two or three players with significant talent, and will beat the team with overall depth. This brings me to Fargo North. With the Tri-City storm recently releasing the 17 year old Elliot Okland and all time save percentage leader at the National Select 17 festival I can't help but wonder what North will be like with him. Elliot is currently practicing with the FM Jets and they said they will take him back. A goalie of Elliots caliber however does not want to stew another season letting his talents diminish. Fargo North is his next option. Elliot would easily be North Dakota's Mr. Hockey and the states top goalie. But how big would his impact for the Spartans? I cant even fathom. Last season Jr. Justin Welk faced a total of 622 shots and stopped 532 of them, his SV% was 85.5% and had 90 goalies against. It is only reasonable to believe that Mr. Okland would put up numbers far superior to this. I do not believe it would be difficult for Elliot to post a 90% SV%. This would be 52 goals instead of 90 goals. A big difference don't you think? If North could subract 38 goals from their opponents score their record could have been 21-2, instead of 12-10-2. It obviously isnt realistic to say that just because of this goalie they would have practically had an undeafeted season but you can get an idea of the impact he will have. Just a thought...

The top three forwards will be from the East. No question about it. We have Paul Weisgarber, Marc Mihulka, Tom Campell, Paul Campell, Nick Klenow, Zach Miller, and Tyler Klein. It is doubtful that you'll find a forward in the West better than one of them. On defense Erick Galt will most definitly be the best in the state. If he will be the best player in the state, well thats another story. What was his work ethic like this summer? Was he surpassed by a forward with more drive to get the next level? Maybe. Maybe not. Kringstad for Grafton will be one of the top goalies in the state. Another notable will be Fargo Norths Justin Welk if he can stay consistent. I'm curious to see who everyone in here thinks will have the best line in the state... I have a few thoughts- Fargo South- Campell, Weisgarber, and Powers. Grafton- T. Campell, P. Campell, Zach Miller Fargo North- Tyler Klein, Nick Klenow, Seth Fischer Those nine forwards are definitly going to give opposing teams some trouble this year. Which group has the most chemisty, gels the best, and is unselfish throughout the year will play a major factor in the success of each of their respective teams.

Any ideas on who Mr. Hockey may be? Besides the obvioius candidates (Weisgarber, Galt, Paul Campell), is there any one else that may contest for the spot? I dont believe either of the Campells have played hockey this summer and it will be very difficult for one of them to win. On the other hand Weisgarber has been injured but that didn't seem to stop him last year. With Willert leaving Minot, the West really does not have a ligetimate chance of bringing home a Mr. Hockey. Galt may be the favorite to win it, but if the Mr. Hockey candidates are chosen on this season alone I wouldnt be surprised if you did not see either of the Campell names and maybe someone you would'nt expect (Mihulka,...?)

Too bad the North Dakota 88's did not go this year. I'm sure they would have won it.

QUOTE- GBpakrzz If you pay close attention, you'll notice that he is high-fiving a guy on his way off the ice. He is probably in need of maturity more than psychological help. Either way, the kids a nut job. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE-haveanotherdoughnut Sorry Dave....the 2 best teams are playing for the title. Maybe back in Nov or Dec Fargo South was the best team in the East. But these are kids, they're still learning and progressing. It should be obvious. The Grand Forks kids worked hard and improved as the season wore on. South hit their plateau early and stayed there. From what I've seen in the tourney...Red River is the most talented team in the state right now. And right now is all that matters. With your logic the Vikes can lay claim to being the NFL's best team the year they choked against the Falcons. Anybody believe that? Hell no. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE- BRING DEAN BACK God I love it when I am right. If South's motto last offseason was 46 seconds, I got a suggestion for the coming offseason, how about 102 minutes? That is how far away they were this year. They are actually getting farther and farther away from their goal. Red River was clearly the better team tonight. I counted three posts by Red River. That game could have been 5-0 after the first period. Though I suppose that DaveK will think that they were all fluke goals by Red River. Apparently anytime someone scores a goal against South it is a fluke. South may have some good hockey players but there is one thing that they will never have, TRADITION. You can run as many kids as you want through the Flyers or Raiders youth programs, but the bottom line is once you get to the high school state tourney, it is all Grand Forks. It always has been that way, and it always will be that way. END QUOTE bringdeanback.... I think it's time to realize that your high school days are done and you are not a part of either of the Grand Forks high school teams and you throw your cocky, thirteen-year-old attitude out the window. You have made it clear you have not fully developed emotionally and try to make yourself feel like you are a part of these teams to feel a sense of accomplishment, which you are not and have not. Red River and Central earned their state championship game spots, but tonight at seven we wont be watching the two best teams in the state, thats a fact. We will be watching the two teams who just happend to come to play at the right time. You can go on how this is their tradition and they are playoff teams but I doubt that has much to do with it. Also, I don't think it is a mature thing to rub the loss of a state championship in the faces of kids, because thats what they are kids! After the statements you just made, I'd love to see the South boys get a shot at you on the ice... after all you are from Grand Forks and it is all Grand Forks isn't it? Let the players do the talking, your a spectator and that's all you'll ever be.

If you have Minot going to the final then 5th is the best that Central could do. You heard it here first, it will be an all Grand Forks final with RR barely edging out Central. Minot can't win a title unless they face another West team in the final, which won't happen again until Halley's comet shows up the same year that the Vikings win the SuperBowl. South won't win because they are too arrogant and full of themselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>