My opinion is changing

[THETRIOUXPER]

I attend all home hockey games at the Ralph. I'm proud to say that every time I go, it is with a handful of Native American friends and family. They are proud to go to the arena, and everyone has a good time. There has never been one instance of the "racism" you claim happens at these games. Not one, ever, and no one has ever left the arena feeling uncomfortable for any reason. They go because they love hockey, and they love the university. They choose not to let something like Native American imagery destroy their happiness, but instead, celebrate their proud heritage and share it proudly with other's.

[HockeyMom]

Why don't we all just drop the arguments? Neither side is going to give in, and neither side is going to convince the other side of why they should be on the opposite side.

This has all become rather tiresome.

There are those of us that are for the Fighting Sioux nickname that are afraid of being verbally abused, as well as people that fear they are in physical danger for being an outspoken supporter of the name.....

It goes both ways.

[undsportsfan]

How is someone to know you are from North Dakota if you are in another state. Just looking at you because you are Native American, I find it hard to believe that someone is going to assume you are from ND and say 'Sioux Suck'. Granted the form of that "chant" is not favorable, it has everything to do with a sporting nature. If someone is at an athletic event and is cheering against the Sioux with that phrase, I doubt they are thinking....'I am making sure all Native Americans know I am insulting them'. Seems a bit over the top.

because before it actually happened, the people asked where we were from. And so as the people ran by yelling, the group of Native children stood their mouths and eyes wide open in shock.

And exactly.... I later realized it had to do with UND and not us being Native. But to this day I wonder if all the children there knew that? And once again, yes I know the intentions are not meant to offend Native Americans, but only to UND sports fans... but yet its still offensive.

And my example of the visit to Minnesota is a prime example of offensive behavior that should have never happened.

[undsportsfan]

Why don't we all just drop the arguments? Neither side is going to give in, and neither side is going to convince the other side of why they should be on the opposite side.

This has all become rather tiresome.

There are those of us that are for the Fighting Sioux nickname that are afraid of being verbally abused, as well as people that fear they are in physical danger for being an outspoken supporter of the name.....

It goes both ways.

I agree with you. But I assume if it's been brought up in the forum, it's open for discussion and debate. And what about me or anyone that supports a name Change...? There's a member here trying to harass me now for just stating my opinions or debates. I have never tried harassing her in anyway? And by trying to reveal my identity she could very well be putting me in danger or my family.

There's extremists on both sides unfortunately. I agree. I don't agree with immature behavior. I just was trying to have an actual conversation about what's being said. Forums are brought up and only hear one side of what's going on... So I'm just trying to elaborate.

But thanks, I do agree... it gets very tiring. One of the reasons why I am getting sick of the nickname. I can't even sit at a restaurant without someone bringing it up. And if I ask them to drop it, it gives them more fuel to try to talk about it. Well not talk... yell.

Just all really sad. And I am Very sincere about that. For safety, I won't ever give my true identity on here after what I've seen... but if you knew me, you'd know I am sincere that pity everyone that is consumed by the subject or affected on a personal level.

[Sioux-cia]

It would be so nice to say that racism has been 'cured' by some sort of action. Never going to happen. In the past 24 hours, a Native American , a Lakota Sioux, has started referrintg to me and my son as 'beaners'. Hmmm, but that's ok because he's Native American and my son and I are supporters of the Fighting Sioux name and logo. Does it bother me, am I hurt, is my life affected by his racism, am I sitting here in tears? Nope. I find it hilarious that someone claiming everyone else is a racist, displays his racism so publically.

Is changing the name and logo going to make this Lakota Sioux not a racist. No.

If anyone wants me to 'prove' my claim, PM me and I will provide you with the proof. This is not a 'I heard that...', 'someone said that...', 'I know I read it somewhere...' claim.

[SportsDoc]

I know people will still wear their Fighting Sioux regalia with pride even if the name is retired. However those who are affected by the name personally, mostly Native people, will be able to have one door shut to that once allowed racism. Yes racism will always exist, but atleast people won't be able to hide behind a sports nickname if that is the case. And those of us who enjoy sports, can go to the game without hearing words being yelled out that seem to be directed towards their heritage, or seeing imagery being used disrespectfully.

It is not racism just because you say it is. It was not racism when the Sioux name was adopted in the 1930's and it is not racism now. You cannot hide behind the "race" card to suit your needs or when you do not have a legitimate argument to persuade me, and that is what you are doing. Make a legitimate and persuasive argument that stands on it's own and I will listen.

You will not "shame" me to your beliefs using the racism tact. It's old, it's a rerun and it holds no water. Yes, there are racist people, but that will not change if the Fighting Sioux name goes away officially at some point. Just look at the places where they have changed their name and tell me if racism disappeared with it, or if the Native Americans there are better off for it. In my limited view, I certainly don't see it. In fact, it may be the opposite.

Reasonable people can disagree, and many times that disagreement can not be solved. Does not make one side right and the other wrong. We would be better served to find our common ground rather than dwell on our areas of contention. That common ground can be the University of North Dakota, and it's academic possibilities for all UND students or it could be UND's athletic teams. It could even be both!

The reality on the Sioux name is I will not likely change your opinion and you will not likely change mine. That does not make one of us right and the other wrong. That does not make one of us a good person and the other not, either.

[yekcoh]

It would be so nice to say that racism has been 'cured' by some sort of action. Never going to happen. In the past 24 hours, a Native American , a Lakota Sioux, has started referrintg to me and my son as 'beaners'. Hmmm, but that's ok because he's Native American and my son and I are supporters of the Fighting Sioux name and logo. Does it bother me, am I hurt, is my life affected by his racism, am I sitting here in tears? Nope. I find it hilarious that someone claiming everyone else is a racist, displays his racism so publically.

Is changing the name and logo going to make this Lakota Sioux not a racist. No.

If anyone wants me to 'prove' my claim, PM me and I will provide you with the proof. This is not a 'I heard that...', 'someone said that...', 'I know I read it somewhere...' claim.

I finally went and had a look at GK's myspace page. (He attacked me before he was banned here too.) What he has just as titles on his "blog" is totally uncalled for. I have never seen anyone call him out for his race as he does to non-indians. This man is not worth my time, or anyone else's.

Could it be that his IP address has changed since he is no longer holding the position he was holding? Did him quitting cause a move to a new residence and Internet Provider? If so, dumbpeoplesuk could easily be GK. Just an idea. I don't think Sioux-cia should have to put up with what he is doing to her. I would probably think about getting a protection order. Seriously.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I had to say it.

[HockeyMom]

And what about me or anyone that supports a name Change...?

I was responding to you talking about being threatened. I've seen threats made to people by the anti-nickname crowd to people that have chosen to vocally support the name.

One of the reasons why I am getting sick of the nickname. I can't even sit at a restaurant without someone bringing it up. And if I ask them to drop it, it gives them more fuel to try to talk about it. Well not talk... yell.

That person sounds like a moron. Not everyone is like that. If you are socializing with this person, I suggest that you stop.

[undsportsfan]

I was responding to you talking about being threatened. I've seen threats made to people by the anti-nickname crowd to people that have chosen to vocally support the name.

That person sounds like a moron. Not everyone is like that. If you are socializing with this person, I suggest that you stop.

hi,

i agree that anyone supporting a name change should stop harassing or threatening others that support the name. but i also think that it needs to go both ways. a member here is acting in a threatening manner towards me and also others.

and the moron... unfortunately is a relative. so i can tell him he's a moron... but he'll never change. he argues to argue i think. and yes i tell him to stop coming over to my home and dont address me around my friends if he just wants to act like a jerk.

what's funny is that the people i was with the one night in particular, most of them support the nickname... others don't care. and we all told this guy to stop talking about it.

but i guess i'm giving more information now than i care too because it gives someone info to go search into my private space.

[undsportsfan]

I finally went and had a look at GK's myspace page. (He attacked me before he was banned here too.) What he has just as titles on his "blog" is totally uncalled for. I have never seen anyone call him out for his race as he does to non-indians. This man is not worth my time, or anyone else's.

Could it be that his IP address has changed since he is no longer holding the position he was holding? Did him quitting cause a move to a new residence and Internet Provider? If so, dumbpeoplesuk could easily be GK. Just an idea. I don't think Sioux-cia should have to put up with what he is doing to her. I would probably think about getting a protection order. Seriously.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I had to say it.

i agree lots of things are uncalled for. DPS is not GL... ...hopefully we'll (the person I assume is DPS and myself) get to talk about what was posted on here again in private and that it will stop.

Um... That whole idea of getting a restraining order may be a good idea if needed... but remember that means she will have to stop Harassing him and stop talking about him too if he has to do the same. I am familiar with restraining orders, that both parties have to abide by the rules... not just one person in particular and not the other. (NO I have never had one on me or give one to somebody) And well if any harassing behavior continue towards me, I would unfortunately would have to resort to doing the same thing with a restraining order. And that is something I do not want to do either. I don't think that Restraining Orders are a good idea on the other hand... because if its someone who works in a facility that is to care for the public, well, not good... because what if you have to treat someone that you have a restraining order against?

More of a reason that this whole nickname issue is getting out of hand. Look at all this behavior it's triggering, and possible behavior.

[HockeyMom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a law now that if you post on a internet message board, you're true identity can be told to anyone that inquires about it. I thought I read something about it, or heard about it not so long ago- two guys were joking on the radio that if someone insults you on a message board, you have the right to find out who it is.

I could be mistaken.

[undsportsfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it a law now that if you post on a internet message board, you're true identity can be told to anyone that inquires about it. I thought I read something about it, or heard about it not so long ago- two guys were joking on the radio that if someone insults you on a message board, you have the right to find out who it is.

I could be mistaken.

i never insulted her.

and no one directly asked my name. and after seeing what goes on lately, i definitely won't for the time being. I would wish to keep my name anonymous for the time being, and hopefully people can respectfully do the same. I've respectfully withheld names before at their request... so again, I expect the same.

I've never come on this board and acted in a racist manner. For that matter, I don't believe I've ever harassed anyone on here either. Maybe a simple message in private to requesting that the behavior to stop. But of course, it only encouraged them.

or never meant to if I did. and if I had in the past. My apologies.

[HockeyMom]

i never insulted her.

and no one directly asked my name. and after seeing what goes on lately, i definitely won't for the time being. I would wish to keep my name anonymous for the time being, and hopefully people can respectfully do the same. I've respectfully withheld names before at their request... so again, I expect the same.

I've never come on this board and acted in a racist manner. For that matter, I don't believe I've ever harassed anyone on here either. Maybe a simple message in private to requesting that the behavior to stop. But of course, it only encouraged them.

or never meant to if I did. and if I had in the past. My apologies.

Okay, if I asked that question to make you react defensively, I didn't mean to. I didn't accuse you of anything, just stated what I thought had changed with the law and the internet.

[Chewey]

i agree lots of things are uncalled for. DPS is not GL... ...hopefully we'll (the person I assume is DPS and myself) get to talk about what was posted on here again in private and that it will stop.

Um... That whole idea of getting a restraining order may be a good idea if needed... but remember that means she will have to stop Harassing him and stop talking about him too if he has to do the same. I am familiar with restraining orders, that both parties have to abide by the rules... not just one person in particular and not the other. (NO I have never had one on me or give one to somebody) And well if any harassing behavior continue towards me, I would unfortunately would have to resort to doing the same thing with a restraining order. And that is something I do not want to do either. I don't think that Restraining Orders are a good idea on the other hand... because if its someone who works in a facility that is to care for the public, well, not good... because what if you have to treat someone that you have a restraining order against?

More of a reason that this whole nickname issue is getting out of hand. Look at all this behavior it's triggering, and possible behavior.

Why is it so hard to understand that a nickname, or any name for that matter, does not "trigger" anything? The hostile and abusive conduct of certain people -- GK for example -- is triggered by one's own motivations and inability to convey one's positions in a positive and productive manner. Saying the nickname triggers anything is like saying "the Devil made me do it." This is ludicrous and it is an all too common denominator among the name change crowd. Contrary to the logic that the name change crowd promotes, disagreements over a particular issue do not constitute "hostile and abusive" conduct/behavior. The shrill and unfounded cries of "racism," "pain and suffering" and "bigotry" made so irresponsibly by the pc'ers and their phobia concerning positions contravening their own are what trigger and perpetuate the very racism they claim to condemn/remedy. How pharisaic of them to claim that the nickname itself causes anything. In fact, it is they who are using the nickname as a vessel to perpetrate overt and tangible racist acts by claiming that everyone holding a different viewpoint than the one they hold are "racists." I firmly believe that the majority of people are very tired of the antics and twisted logic of the "we define racism" crowd. The lawsuit is emblematic of that general feeling.

[Sioux-cia]

I am harassing GK. Interesting. undsportsfan compares my posting public information posted on GKs PUBLIC MySpace, regarding Native American students thanking the State's Attorney General for his work, information that is significant to SS.com members, and that is harassment. OK

Oh, and undsportsfan and dumbpeople, you can pass on to GK that his tactics are beyond hilarious especially given the nationality of his children. It is Sioux tradition that the maternal side is dominant, correct? (I'm already in trouble for posting my profession opinion about him, so I won't do it again.) I'm not intimidated, afraid, or hiding. I will continue to voice my support for the Fighting Sioux name and logo, and post information relevant to that issue as well as my opinions of such.

I'm a fiesty beaner!! I never give up, give in, or shut up!!!

[82SiouxGuy]

I know people will still wear their Fighting Sioux regalia with pride even if the name is retired. However those who are affected by the name personally, mostly Native people, will be able to have one door shut to that once allowed racism. Yes racism will always exist, but atleast people won't be able to hide behind a sports nickname if that is the case. And those of us who enjoy sports, can go to the game without hearing words being yelled out that seem to be directed towards their heritage, or seeing imagery being used disrespectfully.

If the name is retired, say if I'm sitting at some concert or other event, perhaps in Minnesota, with my children and family.. and hear someone come by knowing I'm from North Dakota, and say, "Sioux Suck!" I will know that it is actually being directed towards my family and can handle it the situation without someone hiding behind "I was referring to UND."

anyway... I don't have time to write a big essay, so this will have to suffice for an answer.

You seem to feel that there will be an immediate change in attitude if the name changes. North Dakota State University fans were yelling "Sioux Suck" at a football game against the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis this fall. UND had nothing to do with the game in any way imaginable. We haven't played North Dakota State for a few years now and it has been years since we played the University of Minnesota in a major sport other than hockey. And yet, the chant had absolutely nothing to do with any hatred of Dakota, Lakota or Nakota people. As well known as the University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux nickname is with the schools we normally compete against, it will be a long time before that dies down with our opponents even if the name is changed. So it will be both UND supporters and opponents that will continue to use the name. There is a good chance that you will hear it for years, and they still probably won't be talking about your family. Again, the current situation at Dartmouth is an example of what can happen more than 30 years after a name change. I would hope that the people of this area would handle the situation better, but there is no guarantee.

[PCM]

I reject the idea that because of UND's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, the university is somehow responsible for the insensitive or racist behavior of other teams' fans. Does anyone seriously expect me to believe that the fans who engage in this type of behavior would be more sensitive and less racist if UND's athletic teams were still called the Flickertails? Of course they wouldn't because the factors that cause people to do such things far away from UND and the greater Grand Forks community would be there regardless of what the university called its teams.

undsportsfan, you seem to be operating under the mistaken notion that these people would not behave the way they do if not for the Fighting Sioux name and logo. The fact is, the name and logo didn't make them what they are. You seem to believe that it's acceptable for people to behave in a racist, insensitive manner as long as you aren't subjected to it. The type of person who would say "Sioux suck" in front of Native American children in your presence would be just as likely to say something equally offensive in other circumstances. That isn't UND's fault and it's not UND's responsibility.

I have seen, read and heard sports writers, fans and supposedly "enlightened" people make comments about American Indians that make me cringe. They are comments that I would never expect to see a Fighting Sioux fan make. That's because the vast majority of UND's fans understand the importance of treating the name and logo with dignity and respect. Very, very few of them would knowingly go out of their way to willfully insult or offend a Native American.

There are many well-documented instances of fans making racist comments to black athletes or coaches and sexist comments to women athletes. When that happens, we don't tell a university to leave its women and minorities at home because their presence provokes bad behavior by opposing fans. We rightly come down hard on the fans who engaged in the behavior. We hold the school at which the behavior occurred accountable and demand that changes be made.

That's the way it should be. That's the way it must be. To pretend that the absence of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo would somehow correct the type of behavior you claim to abhor is the moral equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn't exist simply because you don't see it or hear it.

We have two choices. We can make a feel-good, symbolic gesture that solves nothing or we can attempt to come to grips with the real problem and solve it at the base level. The second option is far more difficult to achieve, but it is a long-term solution and the only means of effectively dealing with the problem.

That's what I think is so sad about this entire debate. People are being led to believe that changing the nicknames of sports teams will put a dent in racism. It won't, and it's a shame that we spend so much time, money and effort arguing over such a trivial issue.

[dagies]

That's what I think is so sad about this entire debate. People are being led to believe that changing the nicknames of sports teams will put a dent in racism. It won't, and it's a shame that we spend so much time, money and effort arguing over such a trivial issue.

PCM, well stated. Much better than I could have. I would like to expand on your last point. Many opponents would say if this is such a trivial matter, why are Sioux fans fighting to keep the nickname. It's just a nickname, so it should be no big deal to change.

Yes, it is just a nickname, but at some point you have to fight back against the idea that you should be forced to change just because someone else thinks they will feel better if you do.

For this reason I think this is NOT a trivial fight. The issue is probably trivial, but the battle is important. These issues continue to crop up in our society and sooner or later it has to stop. I'm glad UND has drawn a line in the sand on this one, and I applaud President Kupchella for directing the fight.

I probably cannot make my point very eloquently, but I hope you get my drift.

[yekcoh]

What worries me the most is that once everyone gets their PC way, we will lose all identity. The PC crowd is picking away at everything one item at a time. From Christmas trees to holiday trees. How long will it be before it is wrong to eat at Mexican, Italian, or Chinese restaurants? No more men's and women's restrooms? I could go on and on with examples. It is headed in that direction and it scares me.

[SportsDoc]

What worries me the most is that once everyone gets their PC way, we will lose all identy. The PC crowd is picking away at everything one item at a time. From Christmas trees to holiday trees. How long will it be before it is wrong to eat at Mexican, Italian, or Chinese restaurants? No more men's and women's restrooms? I could go on and on with examples. It is headed in that direction and it scares me.

It's OK. Don't be scared!

[HockeyMom]

No more men's and women's restrooms?

What?! Men and women have different restrooms now? Maybe I should pay better attention to things.

[yekcoh]

It's OK. Don't be scared!

OK.

[yekcoh]

What?! Men and women have different restrooms now? Maybe I should pay better attention to things.

There is a fight in NYC going on because transgender persons want to be able to use which ever one they want and parents (it might be PC wrong to say mothers or fathers) of small children are upset that they have to wonder who is using the restroom with them.

[HockeyMom]

There is a fight in NYC going on because transgender persons want to be able to use which ever one they want and parents (it might be PC wrong to say mothers or fathers) of small children are upset that they have to wonder who is using the restroom with them.

Somebody........quick, post the transgender bathroom sign that Tina Fey had up on Update for the bathrooms in Amsterdam for either or.

That was freaking hilarious!

[MafiaMan]

Somebody........quick, post the transgender bathroom sign that Tina Fey had up on Update for the bathrooms in Amsterdam for either or.

That was freaking hilarious!