Kupchella: Self-righteous NCAA deserves lawsuit

[PCM]

This isn't a criminal investigation.

I believe that we are all aware of that. Hockey Mom was making what's known as an "analogy." I can explain the concept to you if necessary.

You act like the NCAA is the government.

No, the NCAA is acting as if it's a branch of the government by claiming that racial hostility exists at UND when the government agency responsible for making that determination found nothing of the sort.

Its a CLUB or ASSOCIATION. You don't have constitutional rights in it, just as you aren't forced to be a member of it.

Again, we all know that. However, having spent seven years working for a private association, I also know that when an assocation takes a member's money and promises certain things, it had better deliver what it promised or risk being sued for breech of contract. It's not a one-way street.

Again, NCAA president Myles Brand and the Executive Committee have trampled all over the organization's consitituion and bylaws to implement a legislative action that wasn't approved by the members. It would be nice if members of the NCAA realized that by allowing this to happen to UND and a few other schools, Brand could use the same tactic on them some day to implement one of his social change policies.

You don't like what there doing, than go NAIA. They won't have a problem.

The NCAA owns the NAIA, which makes the NCAA a monopoly.

I know it sucks, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but thats reality.

The reality is that UND has a right to clear its name of the slander initiated by the NCAA.

[HockeyMom]

This isn't a criminal investigation. You act like the NCAA is the government. Its a CLUB or ASSOCIATION. You don't have constitutional rights in it, just as you aren't forced to be a member of it. You don't like what there doing, than go NAIA. They won't have a problem. I know it sucks, and I don't necessarily agree with it, but thats reality.

We have been charged by our athletic governing body of an unspeakable act, and were have been treated as if we are guilty from the time that they charged us.

If UND changes the name or backs out of the NCAA, it will be presumed that we are leaving/changing because we are guilty. And we are not.

Have you even read the letter that Kupchella wrote?

[PCM]

Have you even read the letter that Kupchella wrote?

I'm wondering the same thing.

[sioux7>5]

I'm wondering the same thing.

AFF you are the guy at a party that is always ticking people off, someone would say white and you would say NO black....Why don't you just go away, don;t go away mad, just go away!

I have a question that nobody I do not think has addressed. I support UND keeping the name 100%, but if we have to change it and the NCAA said we have to. Then why does the NCAA not pay to change the name. So for UND to do that, the NCAA could start with replacing the arena we are going to lose because of their policy. So I say around 150 million should cover it. Untill the nCAA wants to step up and pay for the changes that the think should happen then they should pay for it. Or as part of the lawsuit UND should sue them for that amount of money.

[aff]

The NCAA owns the NAIA, which makes the NCAA a monopoly.

Im sorry, but what?

[sioux7>5]

Im sorry, but what?

Yes AFF the NCAA owns the NAIA...Are you surprised that someone had to tell you something...Guess you do not know everything.

[HockeyMom]

150 million

I think that's why they are treating us differently.

Jealous much NCAA?

[OrygunSue]

The good Dr. K. might well be right in his opinion, as all of you. There seems no doubt that the NCAA is wrong in this matter. That all being said, it is probably better not to vent, to keep the lid on the irritation and not look like a ranting bafoon.

The hypocrisy (I can't spell, is that right?) that you are all so peeved about is a component part of the NCAA. Unfortunately, it is a club that we want allies in, not just enemies. This is Politics 101 stuff here - work within the organization to make change, don't sue them to make your point.

This is Dr. K.'s way of stomping a bid for transitioning to DI. This letter will seal the University's fate in this matter.

[HockeyMom]

This is Politics 101 stuff here - work within the organization to make change, don't sue them to make your point.

They haven't listened to reason, that's why we need to let the courts decide our fate.

Where would we be if no one ever challenged the system?

Would I be able to vote?

Would people be allowed to buy and sell other people?

Would people be forced to pray in school?

Would there be a seperation of church and state?

Would people have the right to protest?

Would people be allowed to sit anywhere on a bus?

Could a law enforcement officer interrogate me without an attorney present?

Would there be any labor laws?

Would you like me to continue because I think I can go on all day.....

Giving up is not the answer people. Fight the fight worth fighting. Like I said before this is no longer about a certain nickname, it's about treating schools differently and unfairly. It's not right. The NCAA needs to either figure that out on their own, or be told by someone with more power than them that they are wrong.

[OrygunSue]

They haven't listened to reason, that's why we need to let the courts decide our fate.

Where would we be if no one ever challenged the system?

Would I be able to vote?

Would people be allowed to buy and sell other people?

Would people be forced to pray in school?

Would there be a seperation of church and state?

Would people have the right to protest?

Would people be allowed to sit anywhere on a bus?

Could a law enforcement officer interrogate me without an attorney present?

Would there be any labor laws?

Would you like me to continue because I think I can go on all day.....

Giving up is not the answer people. Fight the fight worth fighting. Like I said before this is no longer about a certain nickname, it's about treating schools differently and unfairly. It's not right. The NCAA needs to either figure that out on their own, or be told by someone with more power than them that they are wrong.

If we were talking about slavery or prayer or assembly, etc., then sure, let's fight the good fight. But we're not. This argument is about protecting our ability to keep a mascot for our sports teams. Put it in perspective.

The plain fact of the matter is that not all people are comfortable with this mascot anymore. You simply cannot deny it. When we fight so passionately over something that is in fact so trivial, we look irrational.

Dr. K's letter looks like a ranting tirade from a hick. That's what the rest of the country will think of it.

Right as the argument might be, the perception still stinks...and it embarrasses me.

[dlsiouxfan]

The good Dr. K. might well be right in his opinion, as all of you. There seems no doubt that the NCAA is wrong in this matter. That all being said, it is probably better not to vent, to keep the lid on the irritation and not look like a ranting bafoon.

The hypocrisy (I can't spell, is that right?) that you are all so peeved about is a component part of the NCAA. Unfortunately, it is a club that we want allies in, not just enemies. This is Politics 101 stuff here - work within the organization to make change, don't sue them to make your point.

This is Dr. K.'s way of stomping a bid for transitioning to DI. This letter will seal the University's fate in this matter.

In no way can the NCAA prevent UND from moving to D-I without significant changes to it's bylaws. Any institution can elect to move to whatever division they want by simply meeting certain requirements. This idea that UND needs NCAA approval to change classifications is completely incorrect and is only stated by people who have spent most likely zero time researching anything about the D-I move.

[Sioux-cia]

The good Dr. K. might well be right in his opinion, as all of you. There seems no doubt that the NCAA is wrong in this matter. That all being said, it is probably better not to vent, to keep the lid on the irritation and not look like a ranting bafoon.

The hypocrisy (I can't spell, is that right?) that you are all so peeved about is a component part of the NCAA. Unfortunately, it is a club that we want allies in, not just enemies. This is Politics 101 stuff here - work within the organization to make change, don't sue them to make your point.

This is Dr. K.'s way of stomping a bid for transitioning to DI. This letter will seal the University's fate in this matter.

I'm happy to say our President is not inclined to bend over and '...keep the lid on the irritation' in this matter; although, I acknowledge your comfort level in doing so.

Since you admit and it's noted that you can't spell, you're obviously not smarter than Siouxmama. Your intelligence is also in question when you can't see if the NC$$ acts in any adversarial way such as in your own words 'This letter will seal the University's fate in this matter' it will only be more evidence that the NC$$'s dictating to us in this manner constitutes Fair Trade violations.

OrgySue this isn't a D1 issue. I don't have any inclination to explain the difference to you. Ask aff, your man, to explain them to you.

The only ranting I've noted are yours. Why don't you check the facts before you come on and start spouting your opinion because it only makes you look like the buffoon.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

If we were talking about slavery or prayer or assembly, etc., then sure, let's fight the good fight. But we're not. This argument is about protecting our ability to keep a mascot for our sports teams. Put it in perspective.

The plain fact of the matter is that not all people are comfortable with this mascot anymore. You simply cannot deny it. When we fight so passionately over something that is in fact so trivial, we look irrational.

Dr. K's letter looks like a ranting tirade from a hick. That's what the rest of the country will think of it.

Right as the argument might be, the perception still stinks...and it embarrasses me.

I'm sorry, but can someone show me the Mascot for UND? I think I have been to about 100 or so hockey, football, and basketball games and have yet to see that mascot? Am I missing something or is Ms. Orygun the only person who has seen the mascot?

Again, sorry for my lack of knowledge on this as well, but I thought the representation of the University as Hostile and Abusive was the key facet of our disagreement with the NCAA? Therefore, the logo becomes a metaphor fighting the injustice of the few's decision upon the many.

Lastly, US House of Representatives has taken up the cause due to their concerns with the NCAA acting like a social engineering branch of the United States...Now how does the US House of Representatives get involved with an issue like this when we have all these smart lawyers at Marquette and elsewhere who don't want to fight the good fight...Before you respond Orygun, understand that both Republicans and DEMOCRATS have sponsored this bill.

BobIwabuchiFan

[Sioux-cia]

If we were talking about slavery or prayer or assembly, etc., then sure, let's fight the good fight. But we're not. This argument is about protecting our ability to keep a mascot for our sports teams. Put it in perspective.

The plain fact of the matter is that not all people are comfortable with this mascot anymore. You simply cannot deny it. When we fight so passionately over something that is in fact so trivial, we look irrational.

Dr. K's letter looks like a ranting tirade from a hick. That's what the rest of the country will think of it.

Right as the argument might be, the perception still stinks...and it embarrasses me.

We're talking about an institiution whose mission is to protect student athletes from harm. It's mission is not to dictate social norms to it's members. Check the NC$$'s mission statement and bylaws, if you find they do, I will post a sign on my lawn asking the University to change it's name and logo.

WE DO NOT HAVE A MASCOT!

More people are on record in support of the use of the name and logo than those that do not. Since when/where does the minority rule? Orygun?

Fighting against the label given our University as being 'hostile or abusive' may be trivial to you, it's not for the majority. If you bothered to read more than Sylvia Plath poems, you would know that the 'rest of the country' is watching our refusal to bend over for the NC$$ and are cheering us on.

Your lack of knowledge, 'bend over and take me' attitude, is embarassing to the rest of us UND grads. I'm seriously doubting you are a UND grad. Calling you a 'hick' would definitely be a compliment.

[HockeyMom]

Right as the argument might be

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You are the weakest link, goodbye.

PS didn't you get the memo about EVERYONE in North Dakota being a hick? Good thing that you left, so you aren't one anymore.

[OrygunSue]

1. I don't even know who Sylvia Platt is.

2. In spite of what several of you say about the support of Native Americans for the Sioux logo, there are many whom would say it is just as degrading as having some half naked white guy with war paint on chanting and drumming at the games. This is 2006, right? Let's understand the world that we live in, move on, and find other, more important things to debate...calmly.

3. I can't spell baffoon. It's hard to make a good point with bad spelling.

4. I've never said that the good Dr. K is wrong in his opinion. Just his actions. Don't kid yourself about the perception of this from the rest of the country. It'll look very bad. If you can't see that, you need to travel outside of GF more often.

5. It's very clear that the NCAA cannot keep us from transitioning to DI. But ask NDSU how hard it is to be in DI without a conference. Also, ask them how hard it would be to get into a conference with this monkey on your back. They've been relatively squeaky clean during this whole thing and competitive but are still waiting.

[Sioux-cia]

1. I don't even know who Sylvia Platt is.

2. In spite of what several of you say about the support of Native Americans for the Sioux logo, there are many whom would say it is just as degrading as having some half naked white guy with war paint on chanting and drumming at the games. This is 2006, right? Let's understand the world that we live in, move on, and find other, more important things to debate...calmly.

3. I can't spell baffoon. It's hard to make a good point with bad spelling.

4. I've never said that the good Dr. K is wrong in his opinion. Just his actions. Don't kid yourself about the perception of this from the rest of the country. It'll look very bad. If you can't see that, you need to travel outside of GF more often.

5. It's very clear that the NCAA cannot keep us from transitioning to DI. But ask NDSU how hard it is to be in DI without a conference. Also, ask them how hard it would be to get into a conference with this monkey on your back. They've been relatively squeaky clean during this whole thing and competitive but are still waiting.

1. College grad, huh?

2. UND does not have a half naked white, black, brown, yellow or red guy with war paint on chanting and drumming at the games. (UND grad? Must have taken only correspondence classes if you don't know UND has no mascot, fans do not do tomahawk chops, use Indian drums, or chant Indian anything.) FSU has a white guy dressed in Plains Indian costume (he's not half naked), dancing, riding horseback, and throwing a flaming Indian war spear onto their football field. But don't go on a rampage about that... the NC$$ has said that's ok.

3. It's 'buffoon'. I bolded the correct spelling for you in my last post.

4. You still haven't checked the facts, have you? President Kupchella has been very respectful to the NC$$ in all his correspondence to them. This last letter is in response to their disrespectful actions to our appeals and request for evidence that the University is 'hostile or abusive' in it's use of the Sioux name and logo.

Oh, and I was born and raised in Chicago. I moved to North Dakot and have stayed here by choice not necessity. I have traveled in three continents and plan on visiting a fourth in a few months. So keep you condescending rhetoric for the mirror.

5. The DI issue is not tied to the name and logo. If you want to discuss that go to the appropriate thread.

Edited June 12, 2006 by Sioux-cia

[HockeyMom]

1. I don't even know who Sylvia Platt is.

Ooh, ooh I know! I know! I learned at the Western Regionals......and I'm totally not kidding.

Is your name Sue or did you change the spelling of Sioux?

[OrygunSue]

[Sioux-cia]

Whether you want them tied together or not, Dr. K. did it for you. We now have the choice of staying in DII or being homeless in DI.

My other point, mascot or not, some people think it's just plain classless.

I sincerely hope the NC$$ ties the name, logo and the move to DI together, it will guarantee a sure win in our lawsuit against the NC$$. But I don't think they're that stupid. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. Here's hoping!

As stated previously, more people than not do not believe our name and logo is 'hostile, abusive or classless'. Your point is valid only if the minority rules and the last time I checked, the majority rules in this country.

[HockeyMom]

Whether you want them tied together or not, Dr. K. did it for you. We now have the choice of staying in DII or being homeless in DI.

My other point, mascot or not, some people think it's just plain classless.

H-mom, Sue the Sioux. Nice to meet you.

All of this suing is making me dizzy...

I don't think that it will be tied together, and I don't think that fighting for something that you believe in is classless, but giving up on it without trying is taking the cowardly way out.

Nice to meet you too. P-town is one of my favorite towns, I like to hang out at Kell's on 2nd and Ash. Good times, good times......

[OrygunSue]

I sincerely hope the NC$$ ties the name, logo and the move to DI together, it will guarantee a sure win in our lawsuit against the NC$$. But I don't think they're that stupid. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. Here's hoping!

As stated previously, more people than not do not believe our name and logo is 'hostile, abusive or classless'. Your point is valid only if the minority rules and the last time I checked, the majority rules in this country.

Unless you failed Civics class, you'll remember that democracies are not necessarily founded on majority rule. All great democracies provide a platform for the minority to speak its point as a valid perspective to which be given equal billing. (Sort of funny how you all have treated me for speaking my dissenting mind...)

H-Mom, Kell's is great. Home to the largest St. Patty's celebration on the Left Coast. They give out t-shirts to the first 20,000 people in the gate. (It's held in several parking lots in the neighborhood.) No green beer but impromptu wet t-shirt contests abound. My husband initiated me well...

[OrygunSue]

Unless you failed Civics class, you'll remember that democracies are not necessarily founded on majority rule. All great democracies provide a platform for the minority to speak its point as a valid perspective to which be given equal billing. (Sort of funny how you all have treated me for speaking my dissenting mind...)

H-Mom, Kell's is great. Home to the largest St. Patty's celebration on the Left Coast. They give out t-shirts to the first 20,000 people in the gate. (It's held in several parking lots in the neighborhood.) No green beer but impromptu wet t-shirt contests abound. My husband initiated me well...

Oh, yeah... I meant to also say that the NCAA isn't a democracy anyway so who cares. If one person is offended by the Sioux being the Sioux, then the NCAA ought to step in.

That all being said, they should be consistent. I will give you that.

Still doesn't help us look favorable to a prospective conference.

[Sioux-cia]

Unless you failed Civics class, you'll remember that democracies are not necessarily founded on majority rule. All great democracies provide a platform for the minority to speak its point as a valid perspective to which be given equal billing. (Sort of funny how you all have treated me for speaking my dissenting mind...)

Not agreeing with you, pointing out the flaws in your dissenting view point is necessary when someone is as clueless as you about the issue at hand. You keep bringing up 'some of the people' who disagree with UND's use of the Sioux name and logo and I point out more persons than don't want UND to keep the name and logo. You've insulted Dr. Kupchella, you insult people such as myself who don't agree with you and you've been insulted. All seems pretty democratic to me.

Keep posting ridiculous statements, keep showing your lack of knowledge and I'll keep pointing it out.

[HockeyMom]

H-Mom, Kell's is great. Home to the largest St. Patty's celebration on the Left Coast. They give out t-shirts to the first 20,000 people in the gate. (It's held in several parking lots in the neighborhood.) No green beer but impromptu wet t-shirt contests abound. My husband initiated me well...

I wore my Kell's t-shirt back from Cancun and I had several people come up to me and tell me how great of a time they have had there. One couple even told me the story of how their son met his wife there..... Everyone loves Kell's!