Outside the Lines

[Sioux-cia]

The NCAA refused to allow anyone from their organization to be interviewed for the show, which I thought was interesting because they were a sponsor. The NCAA did release a written statement which, to me, appeared to be more strongly worded than what they've said recently.

I could be wrong, but to me, the statement indicated that ALL namesake tribes must to agree to the use of their name. In other words, it doesn't matter whether or not Spirit Lake approves of UND's use of Fighting Sioux. As long as any Sioux tribe opposes it, the NCAA will oppose it.

Perhaps someone who recorded the show could provide the NCAA statement or confirm my impression of what it said. I just remember reading it and thinking, "Uh oh. That's not good."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think that the Oklahoma Seminoles approve of the use of the name. I believe their stance was to not oppose it. I know I read this in one of the media posts. I know that this is considered approval in some circles. If the NC$$ is using 'approval' from namesake tribes as the 'gold standard', how and where in the H are schools such as U of I and those other schools with generic names going to get 'approval'? If they are going to say that 'generic' Indians don't approve, then the Turtle Mountain Chippewa's approval is all we need to keep the name. I don't think that this condition will hold water in a real court of law. Hopefully, those on the appeal committee will realize that before they decide to approve or not approve appeals.

[ESPNInsider]

The Oklahoma tribe DOES support the use of the name.

[ESPNInsider]

Folks, this is what I'm trying to say. If the tribes unitedly (with proof) do not want the name, then I feel that UND should respect their wishes. Some people want UND to fight tooth and nail through the courts to keep the name. If the tribes that we are honoring come out and say (with proof that this is how the majority of the tribe feels) that they don't want UND to use it then how can we fight to keep it?

Sure, if it is only 4 guys making noise and the rest of the tribal people like the name it should be fought. But we will probably not know this unless we build some sort of good standing relationship with them.

I hope the meeting today starts a bond between the tribes and the athletic department and both can compromise and come out with many winners instead of a winner and a loser.

[Sioux-cia]

The Oklahoma tribe DOES support the use of the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No ,they do not SUPPORT the use of the name. They do not OPPOSE it.

http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009785.asp

[PCM]

Folks, this is what I'm trying to say.  If the tribes unitedly (with proof) do not want the name, then I feel that UND should respect their wishes.  Some people want UND to fight tooth and nail through the courts to keep the name.  If the tribes that we are honoring come out and say (with proof that this is how the majority of the tribe feels) that they don't want UND to use it then how can we fight to keep it?

I understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to understand what anyone else is saying. Do you really want UND to run away with the NCAA stain of "hostile and abusive" to American Indians attached to its name? I don't because I know that it's not true. Maybe you like be unfairly tarred as a racist, but I don't.

[Brent_Bobyck]

If I'm working for CBS news then you must be an intern with the National Enquirer!

How does that make it easy on the school and the AD? I'm not following you here.

So you want UND to take this all the way to the end, fight it in the courts and exhaust all expenses to save the name and that will make it easy on the school and AD. But, if the playoffs are in jeopardy then they should drop the name?

The statement I made that you originally bashed was that if it comes out that the tribes are all against the name then UND should not fight it. I don't feel that UND should go to court saying that the tribes don't "own" the name. Apparently you feel they should? Please explain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, ESPNInsider. Read slow because this is the last time I am going to explain this. If you do not understand after this, then I can not help you.

First of all, I want UND to fight this ruling by the NCAA with every avenue that is available to them (i.e. appeal, lawsuit, etc). Now here is where it gets tricky for you ESPN. "IF" UND fails to overturn the NCAA ruling after using all of their available avenues, then why not make easy on the University & AD by changing the name. DO......YOU..........FOLLOW.......ME?

It would be making it easier on UND and their AD by being able to host playoff games and not having to change their uniforms everytime they are in the playoffs somewhere else. DO........YOU...........UNDERSTAND?

I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name. I do believe that UND uses the Fighting Sioux to honor the Native Americans of the area and I think we are hearing the voices of the "vocal minority" that oppose the name.

[ESPNInsider]

OK, so please pick one:

I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name. I do believe that UND uses the Fighting Sioux to honor the Native Americans of the area and I think we are hearing the voices of the "vocal minority" that oppose the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

or

I am undecided on this issue because I can see both sides. Obviously this issue is not going to go away. In fact just the opposite. Why not make it easier on the school, the athletic dept., etc and change the name. Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes. Don't get me wrong I would like to see the name stay but if keeping the name means not getting football playoffs, hockey regionals, etc, then I say we bring back the "flickertails".

That's fine that you don't agree with me, but please take one stance or the other and don't just argue for the sake of arguing. You have been contradicting yourself all day and then just spinning what you say to try and get out of it.

I don't feel that UND should fight the decision in courts IF the tribes say that they don't want UND to use the name. I realize that the tribes don't "own" the name, but I would not give any money to UND ever if they were to fight the decision of the tribes in court. This is based on the tribes showing proof that the majority of members agree with their decision. Without that I would have to make up my own mind.

[PCM]

I realize that the tribes don't "own" the name, but I would not give any money to UND ever if they were to fight the decision of the tribes in court.  This is based on the tribes showing proof that the majority of members agree with their decision.  Without that I would have to make up my own mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What would you consider proof?

[Mad Man]

OK, so please pick one:

or

That's fine that you don't agree with me, but please take one stance or the other and don't just argue for the sake of arguing. You have been contradicting yourself all day and then just spinning what you say to try and get out of it.

I don't feel that UND should fight the decision in courts IF the tribes say that they don't want UND to use the name. I realize that the tribes don't "own" the name, but I would not give any money to UND ever if they were to fight the decision of the tribes in court. This is based on the tribes showing proof that the majority of members agree with their decision. Without that I would have to make up my own mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BB and you are obviously not on the same page. BB wants UND to take on the NCAA through the appeals process or through court. This issue is with the NCAA not the tribes. Tribal approval is only a part of the apeal process, it should not be and is not the sole reason for an appeal. I understand you are saying that if the Sioux Nation were to poll its people and the majority disapproved of the name UND should be willing to change. I would assume you don't want UND to look like classless jerks thumbing their noses at the local tribes. I doubt this poll will ever happen so it seems it is a mute point.

The real issue that UND is willing to go court over is the NCAA calling them racists that are "abusive and Hostile" with out any clear definition of what is "abusive and Hostile" about the choice of nickname.

[Runninwiththedogs]

For those of you wondering where Illinois is, I have a guess. Unlike the UND administration, the UIUC administration has been against Chief Illiniwek (but not the nickname, so the problem would remain) and they may be using this to justify retiring the chief. They may not file an appeal until they decide once and for all what to do with the chief. This is just a guess though.

[soSIOUXme]

[Brent_Bobyck]

OK, so please pick one:

or

That's fine that you don't agree with me, but please take one stance or the other and don't just argue for the sake of arguing. You have been contradicting yourself all day and then just spinning what you say to try and get out of it.

I don't feel that UND should fight the decision in courts IF the tribes say that they don't want UND to use the name. I realize that the tribes don't "own" the name, but I would not give any money to UND ever if they were to fight the decision of the tribes in court. This is based on the tribes showing proof that the majority of members agree with their decision. Without that I would have to make up my own mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funny how you don't list the date and time of my second quote. The second quote is from a few weeks back. The more I thought about it, I came to the conclusion of the first quote.

Regardless, they are pretty much saying the same thing! If you read on in the second quote I said that I would like the nickname to stay. I have never once said "Yep the NCAA is right. UND should give up!" No matter how you spin my words I am saying the same thing, I am just not undecided anymore. Like Mad Man said you are not on the same page. Get your head out of the clouds and actually read my posts before you quote them.

I still do mean what I said though. If the name does end up changing, it will not change the tradition and history of UND and it athletic program, but it would just take a little getting used to. My quote that you put in bold, to somehow strengthen your argument, does not argue against the first quote.

I do not see anyone supporting you on this, only poking holes in your argument.

[ESPNInsider]

Funny how you don't list the date and time of my second quote. The second quote is from a few weeks back. The more I thought about it, I came to the conclusion of the first quote.

Regardless, they are pretty much saying the same thing! If you read on in the second quote I said that I would like the nickname to stay. I have never once said "Yep the NCAA is right. UND should give up!" No matter how you spin my words I am saying the same thing, I am just not undecided anymore. Like Mad Man said you are not on the same page. Get your head out of the clouds and actually read my posts before you quote them.

I still do mean what I said though. If the name does end up changing, it will not change the tradition and history of UND and it athletic program, but it would just take a little getting used to. My quote that you put in bold, to somehow strengthen your argument, does not argue against the first quote.

I do not see anyone supporting you on this, only poking holes in your argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but how do this:

"I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name"

and this:

"Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes."

say the same thing? They are the exact opposite. I didn't post the time and date? You've totally switched sides of the argument. Not sure why a date is needed. You can continue to try to squirm your way out of it and that's fine. I'm done with that argument, as it's obvious that you don't know what side you're on.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because you seem to switch sides just for the point of arguing. I could care less if people poke holes in my point. I don't want UND to fight the tribes, like Mafia said. If you do that's your right. It's also your right to fly a confederate flag and join the KKK. Do so if you please. If UND fights the tribes in court then I will never go to a game again and will never donate a dime to the school, as that would be pure classless. You may disagree and say that they should. That's fine, but please don't switch sides of the argument just to disagree with me.

I think Mafia is right. You are saying they should fight the NCAA. I'm saying they should NOT fight the tribes. So you probably shouldn't have blasted my original post.

[PCM]

I don't want UND to fight the tribes, like Mafia said.  If you do that's your right.  It's also your right to fly a confederate flag and join the KKK.  Do so if you please.  If UND fights the tribes in court then I will never go to a game again and will never donate a dime to the school, as that would be pure classless. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this straight. You're equating UND taking the name issue to court with flying the confederate flag and joining the KKK?

[redwing77]

And I thought the court battle would pit UND vs. NCAA not vs. the Tribes.

[ESPNInsider]

Yes PCM. Both are your right. The only similarities they have.

[Brent_Bobyck]

Sorry, but how do this:

"I feel they should fight this in the courts because the "Fighting Sioux" nickname has been the face of UND Athletics since the 1930's. I grew up following the Fighting Sioux and it would not be the same if the sports teams played under a different name"

and this:

"Afterall, it is just a name. It does not change the tradition, history, and pride of its alumni and student athletes."

say the same thing? They are the exact opposite. I didn't post the time and date? You've totally switched sides of the argument. Not sure why a date is needed. You can continue to try to squirm your way out of it and that's fine. I'm done with that argument, as it's obvious that you don't know what side you're on.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because you seem to switch sides just for the point of arguing. I could care less if people poke holes in my point. I don't want UND to fight the tribes, like Mafia said. If you do that's your right. It's also your right to fly a confederate flag and join the KKK. Do so if you please. If UND fights the tribes in court then I will never go to a game again and will never donate a dime to the school, as that would be pure classless. You may disagree and say that they should. That's fine, but please don't switch sides of the argument just to disagree with me.

I think Mafia is right. You are saying they should fight the NCAA. I'm saying they should NOT fight the tribes. So you probably shouldn't have blasted my original post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the last time I am going to explain this to you. The quote about it only being a name and it doesn't change the history is NOT arguing my point that UND should fight the name change. All I am saying with that is if it comes down to where UND has to change the name it wouldn't take away what UND has done as an institution or as an athletic department. They are two separate things! Read the entire post and you will see I state that I do not want to see the name change. You need to take a couple minutes and actually read the entire post and not just look for sentences you can exert to take my words and spin them. I am not wavering on this issue. I never once said UND should change the name without a fight. I am not arguing with you on this simply for the sake of arguing. I see what you are saying and I do understand where you are coming from. I simply do not agree that UND should stop there. I think there are ways of fighting the nickname issue without being "classless" as you say.

[ESPNInsider]

And I thought the court battle would pit UND vs. NCAA not vs. the Tribes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HERE IS WHAT I'M SAYING:

If the tribes come out and say that they, as a whole, don't want UND to use the name, and they can show that they have opened it up for discussion within the tribes and given everyone a chance to speak, then I hope UND gives up the fight. If the tribes, as a whole, don't want UND using the name then I don't want them to either. In the past it's seemed that there were just a few vocal minorities talking, if they can show that this is the feeling of the majority then I would want UND to respect the wishes of the tribes.

If UND does fight the wishes of the tribes and the NCAA ruling in court they will lose a lot of respect from a lot of people I would think. I would lose a lot of respect. I would not be proud. I would not give to the university.

Some of you obviously feel that UND should fight this to the bitter end. That's fine. I don't respect that though.

If indeed there is a tribe who does support the use of the name, then I would want UND to fight the decision by the NCAA.

[ESPNInsider]

This is the last time I am going to explain this to you. The quote about it only being a name and it doesn't change the history is NOT arguing my point that UND should fight the name change. All I am saying with that is if it comes down to where UND has to change the name it wouldn't take away what UND has done as an institution or as an athletic department. They are two separate things! Read the entire post and you will see I state that I do not want to see the name change. You need to take a couple minutes and actually read the entire post and not just look for sentences you can exert to take my words and spin them. I am not wavering on this issue. I never once said UND should change the name without a fight. I am not arguing with you on this simply for the sake of arguing. I see what you are saying and I do understand where you are coming from. I simply do not agree that UND should stop there. I think there are ways of fighting the nickname issue without being "classless" as you say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this straight. If the tribes come out and say that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name, you want UND to fight the decision in court?

That is what my original post was that you bashed, so I'm assuming that's what you feel.

[Brent_Bobyck]

So let me get this straight. If the tribes come out and say that they, as a whole, do not want UND to use the name, you want UND to fight the decision in court?

That is what my original post was that you bashed, so I'm assuming that's what you feel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The issue at hand does not directly involve the tribes. The issue is between the NCAA and UND. Yes, the Native Americans do play a role in that fight but UND is not taking them head on, it is the NCAA they are fighting. If the tribes file lawsuits against the University then your argument would hold water. Just because the tribes come out against UND's nickname doesn't mean UND should stop the fight against the NCAA. So to answer your question, yes. There are ways of doing this without being disrespectful and classless.

And I will go ahead and call your bluff on never going to another UND game again. I would be willing to put money on that.

[ESPNInsider]

The issue at hand does not directly involve the tribes. The issue is between the NCAA and UND. Yes, the Native Americans do play a role in that fight but UND is not taking them head on, it is the NCAA they are fighting. If the tribes file lawsuits against the University then your argument would hold water. Just because the tribes come out against UND's nickname doesn't mean UND should stop the fight against the NCAA. So to answer you question, yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying they are taking the tribes to court. I'm saying that if the tribes do not want UND to use the name, as a whole, that UND should not fight the issue anymore. Obviously you feel they should not respect the tribes even if they show that a majority of their people do not want UND to use the name. I think that is classless.

And obviously it does involve the tribes. As was shown with the removal of FSU and Utah from the list. Why were they removed? BECAUSE THE TRIBES ARE NOT AGAINST THE USE OF THE NAME Is that involvment enough for you?

[Brent_Bobyck]

I'm not saying they are taking the tribes to court. I'm saying that if the tribes do not want UND to use the name, as a whole, that UND should not fight the issue anymore. Obviously you feel they should not respect the tribes even if they show that a majority of their people do not want UND to use the name. I think that is classless.

And obviously it does involve the tribes. As was shown with the removal of FSU and Utah from the list. Why were they removed? BECAUSE THE TRIBES ARE NOT AGAINST THE USE OF THE NAME Is that involvment enough for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said they should not respect the tribes. Here you go taking my words and spinning them again.

Also, I did state that the tribes do play a role in this, like the FSU case. All I mean is that the direct fight is between the NCAA and the 15 Universities still on that list. If you would take one more minute to comprehend what I am saying you would understand that.

[The Sicatoka]

Yo "ESPN Insider", when ESPN calls you'll lose that handle. It's their trademark.

However, a word in the public domain is a whole other matter.

Controlling which people can use and how they can use words that are clearly public domain (e.g. Sioux Falls and Sioux City) is "probably" a First Amendment issue.

Universities should be standing up for First Amendment protections and rights.

[MafiaMan]

Yo "ESPN Insider", when ESPN calls you'll lose that handle. It's their trademark.

However, a word in the public domain is a whole other matter.

Controlling which people can use and how they can use words that are clearly public domain (e.g. Sioux Falls and Sioux City) is "probably" a First Amendment issue.

Universities should be standing up for First Amendment protections and rights.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Supposedly they DO stand up for First Amendment protections and rights. Unless, of course, they don't agree with it...

[ESPNInsider]

I never said they should not respect the tribes. Here you go taking my words and spinning them again.

Also, I did state that the tribes do play a role in this, like the FSU case. All I mean is that the direct fight is between the NCAA and the 15 Universities still on that list. If you would take one more minute to comprehend what I am saying you would understand that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you never said they shouldn't respect the tribes, but you did bash my post saying that they should. That is what I've been saying the whole time. That IF the tribes show that their people don't want it, then UND should not fight it. So do you agree with me then? Or do you disagree. You are the one spinning, spinning on what you think!

If you would re-read my first post you would realize that you were bashing it for the wrong reasons. Reasons I think you probably agree with. Then again, I'm not sure where you'll stand tomorrow