Anti D-I petition circulating at SDSU

[administrator]

SDSUFAN has been completely unable to create a post that has any substance related to the topic on hand, but has repeatedly attacked Grand Forks and UND.

Given that he has had many warnings to regulate the contents of his own posts and that he has only responded to those warnings with further attacks, I have removed his string of meaningless posts from the end of this thread and revoked his posting privilege.

[PCM]

Sob. I'll try to live with it.

[diggerdan]

Although it's your board and you are free to administrate it as you please, I wish you would reconsider. Clair is a rarity in that he is a true idiot, not just playing one. It is amusing to watch as the board tries to educate him (myself included), knowing full well that it is not possible.

tony, I'm not sure what you mean about "speculating on all that other stuff" but I believe UND should go DI. I fairly certain it is on the 5-7 year horizon but I believe it needs to be pushed up to 2005. I would have liked it if UND had moved with NDSU but now would feel inclined to wait and see what, if any, restructuring comes out of the 2004 NCAA meetings.

[JBB]

Most of the UND fans dont think the Dakota schools will be accepted into the BSC. I would imagine that the same factors would keep UND out of consideration. Most have also made it clear that a conference affiliation is necessary. The wild card is of course what may happen in 2004, but I dont think it's going to be as sweeping as some might believe. What would UND do for a conference if the Dakota schools areant accepted?

If the Dakotas are accepted that will put the BSC at 10 teams and conference affiliation remains a tricky problem for you. Its unlikely that 11 would be considered desirabe especially with all the travel problems UND would present having no travel partner. This notion is reinforced by the fact that many of you think the SDSU/NDSU combination has no merit for the BSC because of geography. Furthermore, it appears UNC isnt considering the BSC because of the lack of a travel partner.

It's a mistake to censor your board without removing all distastefull posts including diggerdans most recent hurtfull and disrepectfull remarks.

[diggerdan]

It's a mistake to censure your board without removing all distasteful posts, including diggerdan's most recent hurtful and disrespectful remarks.

I agree.

[tony]

"Speculating on all that other stuff" is not the most elegant phrase I've ever spat out, sorry.

I'm talking about the sometimes outlandish theories that sometimes pop up on here and there. Here are some that I've heard so you can get a picture of what I'm talking about.

1. UND isn't going DI because the REA is losing money or some secret scandal/problems will be revealed by outside audit of the athletic department.

2. NDSU is going DI because it will force the state to raise the wages of the faculty to 15% (no idea what the logic is for that one).

3. UND won't go DI because of hockey and some secret deal with Ralph.

4. All but one or two of NDSU's coaches hate the idea of going DI because of who people think showed up at a press conference.

5. I've talked to many Team Makers and they all hate the idea of going DI and, despite a comprehensive survey that shows otherwise.

6. Added one Even though the 2004 NCAA actions are for DI football only, they are going to change the NCAA landscape in profound ways like limiting the BB tourney to BCS teams only and spliting DII into two divisions. (Idaho getting forced down is a possibility though).

It's that stuff that I'm talking about. I was tempted to write:

"I'm more interested in what UND people are saying about DI than that other BS." but I'm trying to be civil as my disposition allows.

(I edited this post after rereading it)

[jimdahl]

What would UND do for a conference if the Dakota schools areant accepted?

You've noted yourself that a possible landing spot for NDSU and SDSU is the creation of a new conference. Now, however, there seems to be a wrench in that plan since I'm not sure SDSU is actually allowed to move without having an existing conference accept them. If that interpretation is correct, that would eliminate the most probable conference affiliation for UND because that new conference definitely would have had open arms.

Since SDSU is primarily a basketball school anyway, Mid-continent might be next in line if they can't get into Big Sky. That does have the potential to also be a UND home, but since football would definitely be the sport driving any UND move, it's a pretty poor choice.

Furthermore, it appears UNC isnt considering the BSC because of the lack of a travel partner.

UNC wanted to get away from the Dakota schools, can't imagine they'd have wanted an even wider conference that includes the Dakota schools. They seem quite content to rough it out as an independent for a while. That was always party of the problem with the D-I NCC plan, UNC was going D-I partially to get away from the NCC.

I think that's a big part of why UND is waiting -- there aren't any great conference opportunities for it. As you've also correctly pointed out, even NDSU's unlikely successful entry into Big Sky probably wouldn't generate an opportunity for UND.

[PCM]

I hate to see anyone kicked off a board simply for being an idiot. However, if a poster repeatedly ignores warnings about potentially libelous or slanderous posts, the administrator has a duty and the right to kick the person off. I don't know how many such transgressions SDSUFAN committed or how many warnings he received.

Those who've been hanging out on the US College Hockey Online forums for the past few years and were familiar with Shane Kvalevog's now-defunct Sioux hockey Web site know how frustrating it becomes when someone decides that his sole purpose for frequenting a site it to be as disruptive and obnoxious as possible.

Whether SDSUFAN crossed that line, I can't say because I haven't read everything he's posted or tried to post here. In this case, I'm willing to trust the administrator's judgement.

[tony]

I think that's a big part of why UND is waiting -- there aren't any great conference opportunities for it.  As you've also correctly pointed out, even NDSU's unlikely successful entry into Big Sky probably wouldn't generate an opportunity for UND.

Jim, I wouldn't have gotten so irate with UND's administration and editorial support if they had just said, "Hey, there aren't any good conference opportunities available so we'll wait." Why all the other BS?

However, since the best possible conference opportunity was there for the taking last year when the NCC voted on going DI, I don't really think that this was a significant reason for waiting.

[JBB]

The point Im making is this: The best conference opportunity we have right now is the BSC. If we are selected it's going to be much harder for UND to move up since there will be no good conference opportunity. It's either that or admit your wrong on most if not all of the contrarian arguments.

Im hoping The Dakota schools will be accpted for the following reasons:

1) The land grant thing is meaningless all schools in the BSC are members of the NASULGC except Eastern Washington and possibly Weber State. No vote will be taken at the first meeting in Feb. and nothing should be read into the 2 Presidents that may be absent. It could be they are in favor and see no need to attend.

2) The BSC needs to have more than 8 members. Scheduling all sports is much easier with 10.

3) They do not want to expand with schools that are not ready or have to make huge future commitments like Cal Northridge. The Dakota schools are ready to roll.

4) They want stable insitutions similar to themselves. Sac State is the largest at 25,000. The Dakota Schools are more typical in the 9-10,000 range.

5) The travel cost question is a wash. Im not awarae of any other schools currently seeking entry to the BSC. If the conference does elect to expand the Dakota schools will represent an easier road trip for some and a harder trip for others, The same as any new potential member. Travel to both schools is easy and convenient. Adequate airports serve both ends of the Dakota road trip.

6) Both the Dakota schools have long histories with many of the BSC teams. These are rivalries that will represent guaranteed gates in the near future as once again the teams become familiar with each other.

I think its likely the Montanas and Idaho State are in favor. The next most likely proponent is Weber State. We will also need at least one from Sac State, Eastern Washington, Portland and Northern Az.

If NDSU is not selected as a new BSC school I think we will go ahead anyway. The added cost and hassle of sports scheduling as an independent probaly wont overshadow the benefit to the entire University.

[RD17]

tony,

I'm not so sure a DI NCC would ever have worked. Even if the 4 Dakota schools would have voted for it, I don't think there would have been many other takers. UNC may have been along for the ride in the short term, but they've never been too enamored with the NCC and were only in it because of a lack of alternatives. Augie, St. Cloud, and Mankato are definite no votes and the legislature in Nebraska won't allow UNO to go DI.

So, assuming the 5 schools I noted were willing to make the leap, where would you find the other schools to fill out a conference? Southern Utah? Maybe for football only, but there's no way they'd go to full membership in a conference without an automatic NCAA bid and kill their successful basketball program.

I guess I just don't understand the idea of trying to move the entire NCC to DI. Isn't the point for moving up to increase exposure? How is this possible when you're playing a high percentage of your games against the same schools as you were in D2? Can anyone safely assume that just because NDSU is I-AA they'll draw more than 6K for a football game against UNC if the Bison football program is struggling?

[RD17]

The point Im making is this:  The best conference opportunity we have right now is the BSC.  If we are selected it's going to be much harder for UND to move up since there will be no good conference opportunity.  It's either that or admit your wrong on most if not all of the contrarian arguments.

Im hoping The Dakota schools will be accpted for the following reasons:

1) The land grant thing is meaningless all schools in the BSC are members of the NASULGC except Eastern Washington and possibly Weber State.  No vote will be taken at the first meeting in Feb. and nothing should be read into the 2 Presidents that may be absent.  It could be they are in favor and see no need to attend.

2)  The BSC needs to have more than 8 members.  Scheduling all sports is much easier with 10.

3)  They do not want to expand with schools that are not ready or have to make huge future commitments like Cal Northridge.  The Dakota schools are ready to roll.

4)  They want stable insitutions similar to themselves.  Sac State is the largest at 25,000.  The Dakota Schools are more typical in the 9-10,000 range.

5)  The travel cost question is a wash. Im not awarae of any other schools currently seeking entry to the BSC. If the conference does elect to expand the Dakota schools will represent an easier road trip for some and a harder trip for others, The same as any new potential member. Travel to both schools is easy and convenient.  Adequate airports serve both ends of the Dakota road trip.  

 

6)  Both the Dakota schools have long histories with many of the BSC teams.  These are rivalries that will represent guaranteed gates in the near future as once again the teams become  familiar with each other.

I think its likely the Montanas and Idaho State are in favor. The next most likely proponent is Weber State.  We will also need at least one from Sac State, Eastern Washington, Portland and Northern Az.

If NDSU is not selected as a new BSC school I think we will go ahead anyway.  The added cost and hassle of sports scheduling as an independent probaly wont overshadow the benefit to the entire University.

I think if NDSU was already a full-fledged DI member it would have a very good chance of getting into the Big Sky. Going directly from D2 however, I think the chances of getting in are very, very small.

There are several factors:

1) The BSC historically sends only 1 conference member to the NCAA BB tournament. More members, the more ways that money gets split.

2) Idaho. If the Vandals are forced back to I-AA in a year or two, the BSC would obviously love to have them back. Adding more members (especially ones that are provisional DI) would make attracting Idaho back to the league difficult.

3) EWU, NAU, WSU, CSUS, PSU. I just don't see how these schools could see an advantage in adding two schools as far east as the Dakotas.

What do I think will happen? The BSC will say something like this: "Make the move up and join the MCC or go independent for a couple of years. We'll help you as much as we can with scheduling. After the new regulations start in a couple of years and we know where we stand membership wise, we'll sit down and talk again."

[UND Fan]

Editorial comment -- It certainly appears to me that much of the bickering in this room is uncalled for. It is becoming quite tedious. A little controversy creates interesting dialogue but some of my fellow UND supporters aren't any better than the NDSU and SDSU participants. It would be great if we talked much more about sports, recruiting, etc. and get away from the immature stuff.

Enough said about that, I have the following comments about REA and the DI controversy. Some of this is fact, some my observations -- I will differentiate the two:

FACT - REA is adding an incrediable amount of money to UND's Athletic Department's bottom line. It is taking a great deal of pressure off the Department, which like others, has been having difficulty staying out of the red. These profits are funding the new, expensive women's hockey program and still leaving a large amount of money for other athletic needs. $ are also being put aside for future maintenance and improvement needs.

OPINION - Although President Kupchella feels that UND should not even consider DI, many within the Athletic Department feel that we need to take a close look at it and see if it makes sense. Until an actual assessment is completed, even the supporters assume that is does not make financial sense to go DI. But, it may become a necessity if further scholarship cuts are made in football and the caliber of our competition would continue to decline. They know that contributions and gate receipts are going to drop if we have too many Mn-Morris' on our schedule. Additionally, they rightfully also have a real concern that the better North Dakota athletes will no longer be able to compete on DI teams. If you look at basketball, not many ND/NW MN boys go DI. The really good ones (Boschee, Jacobson, etc.) will continue to go to the Big Time. That leaves the Josh Johnson's, Adam Dobmeier's, Shawn Gabbert's, Ryan Walker's, etc. going to schools other than UND or SU. They aren't talented enough to play DI. This is even more apparent in the non-major sports. Would a good track athlete from Bismarck enjoy taking the time to fly all over the country to get his/her tail kicked by "real" DI athetes. These athletes enjoy the competition of the non-glamor sports -- I don't think they will go to a school where they can not legitimately compete! They will likely go DII.

Opinion (with some fact mixed in) - UND is in the midst of making some major decisions regarding facilities. To compete in DI (especially in the boonies of northern North Dakota), you need excellent facilities including indoor practice fields. While the REA and Alerus are new and first class, UND needs a dramatic improvement as far as a basketball venue is concerned. For all practical purposes, we have no indoor track and no indoor practice facilities for the baseball, softball, football (on campus), soccer teams, etc.

This, combined with the likelihood of Hyslop becoming a Wellness Center for students, has a lot of decisions on hold. I feel UND is correct in waiting until these important decisions are made before making a decision on DI. A major upgrade in facilities and fund raising for DI would not work well if both were happening at the same time.

Waiting will also allow UND to see what shakes out in '04. There is always the possibility that DI will abandon the DIAA schools so they don't share in Bowl and NCAA basketball profits. This could open the door for a DIAA level for all sports. UND would jump into that in a "New York minute".

While I agree that waiting makes sense, I firmly believe that UND should do a formal study of the feasiblilty and costs of DI NOW. This may prove that it makes absolutely no sense to make the move and, if this was published in the near future, it may cause SDSU to seriously consider staying DII (I don't think there is any turning back for NDSU). A study of this type would also show prospective athletes and supporters that UND isn't complacive when it comes to moving up -- just realistic.

The downside in waiting -- As an avid UND fan and supporter, I also don't like the fact that SU may get a 2-3 year jump on us making the move up. It will be a difficult transition and I would hate the Bison get there before us (if we decide to make the move).

Finally - as NDSU feels the move to DI is the best decision for them right now and because their President is considering doing something about the "Fighting Sioux" controversy, I strongly feel that UND should discontinue competing with NDSU in all sports after next season. With the added scholarship and much expanded recruiting base, it would be very difficult for us to be competitive anyway.

I will in Florida but was in GF and Fargo over the holidays. While I know Bison fans are in a poor frame of mind after the poor FB season, it was interesting for me to talk to about 15 of their most loyal supporters. Interestingly, only two of the 15 supported the move to DI. I started this post by saying we should quit throwing jabs at each other about the decisions their schools are making (or not making) so I don't want this comment to start any of that. I simply found it interesting that so few of the random SU fans I talked to were supportive of the move!

[JBB]

I agree that moving the NCC up would have required new members, all of which would have required more travel. Obviously NDSU saw this and didnt really expect the entire NCC to move. I think we wanted a travel parnter and SDSU has stepped up.

If UND had been a little quicker it might have been NDSU/UND. But the chances of UND moving were clear from the get go: very little to none. In fact it was just the opposite. UND was actively against the move and has been trying to discourage it since Decision 1 was announced.

Ive been baffled by that but could only come to the conclusion they are trying to protect their DI hockey status. Whatever the reason, if the Dakota Schools are successfull in their quest it's going to be much harder for UND if they ever do reconsider. Some major changes will have to occur.

All the other talk about winning, crowds etc etc are simply problematic. We will have both good and bad teams. We will have big crowds and small ones. It will all work out but the trend line should be up and a higher base line should be in place once the probationationary period ends.

We may have to make some concessions to get into the BSC, I guess we will have to wait and see, but it may soon become clear to all of us just how important BSC membership is to the Dakota Schools.

[tony]

Ah, RD17, now you're speculating. The people who will judge whether NDSU/SDSU are worth adding to the conference will meet in February. Why not wait and see what they say? We could speculate all day. Suppose Idaho comes back. Suppose Sacramento State drops out due to California's budget problems and joins the Big West for BB and a more regional DIAA league for football (Davis, St. Mary's, Sacramento, Cal Poly SLO, Humboldt, and who knows, S. Utah or Northern Col?). Suppose a team or two decide that DIA is the way to go. Suppose the core of the conference decide that having those two big media market commuter schools isn't really that great of a thing.

I think you missed my point about the NCC going DI - if UND's long-term goals are to go DI, a DI NCC was (and is) the most obvious, least painful way of getting through the provisional period - better than any other conference possibility that will happen for years, if not ever.

I also think that you mistake my reasons for deciding that NDSU should go DI. Increased exposure? Yeah, there'd be that but I doubt that it'd translate into more football attendance unless NDSU replaced current NCC teams (other than UND) with somebody else, take Maine as an example. I'm not sure that this effect would be permanent but it'll be there for a while. The only place I've ever seen much hope for significant attendance increases was in non-conference FB games and basketball. When I started at NDSU, they were averaging SIX THOUSAND per BB game, not 2,500.

[tony]

Just as a refresher, here is what I stated at the reasons that NDSU moved up a couple months ago. They've held up pretty well - except that I didn't expect SDSU to jump too - although it still hasn't happened for sure.

----------

First, it wasn't UND the spelled the end of NDSU in the DII, it was the NSIC. Since the NSIC has moved up to DII, we've now got about 20 DII schools in the tri-state. If you view the NCAA classification as a market segment, then DII is a lot more crowded, and the new schools aren't much like NCC schools - definitely not state flagships. By going DI, NDSU suddenly finds itself as one of only three DI football-playing schools in MN, ND, WI, and SD. It seemed like a good way to differentiate NDSU from the pack.

Second, if the survey of likely financial supporters of NDSU's move had come back negatively, I wouldn't have supported the move. It's going to be tough to make it in DI and I was glad that the survey asked if our continued financial support was dependent on winning seasons. The survey gave me a chance to answer without considering whether there were enough other people supporting the move.

Third, it was time to decide one way or another whether NDSU was going to go DI. Ever since DI-AA was formed, NDSU has been talking about going DI. 25 years of talking is too much.

Fourth, NDSU's football team is the engine that drives NDSU sports and NDSU isn't doing well in DII football (even before this year's season). They're winning about 75-80% of their games and they've made it to the playoffs a couple times in the last few years. There are very few programs that are having that kind of success and most of them don't have NDSU's competition. NDSU, the media, and the fans are holding the FB team to a nearly impossible standard - a standard that no team with NDSU's competition can possibly maintain. I wanted NDSU to be the underdog again and to scratch their way back to the top because it's a lot more motivating to be the underdog than being the prohibitive favorite all the time. I've never believed that DI-AA football is much better than DII football at all in the first place so I figured that most good Bison teams could match up with most DI-AA teams already. It follows that adding 27 scholarships might just push NDSU over the top.

Fifth, there's the NCAA. I thought that NDSU would benefit from the higher standards that DI demands from recruits, even though they'll have to bypass recruits that they could have gone after before. I also knew that the NCAA was talking about reorganization and thought that being in DI would give NDSU the most options in the event of significant changes. I hate DII's regionalized format, I thought NDSU got screwed when they got sent down to Mississippi in 2000 (and that wasn't the first time), and I figured that the NSIC was going to start getting into the playoffs every year. What's a recruit supposed to think when Winona makes the playoffs and NDSU doesn't? DII had yet to show that they had a long-term plan. To me it seemed likely that we'd have four or more new-from-NAIA conferences join DII by 2005 and that they'd all demand to get into the playoffs in all sports - with the same tactic that's been used before, "either get us into the playoffs or we'll level the playing field (ie reduce scholarships). Maybe DII can navigate those waters, but they've yet to show they have what it takes.

Sixth, there's the little perks that make recruiting easier. NDSU would finally appear in the web drop-down lists of NCAA teams. Right now, it's like we don't even exist. NDSU will show up on scoreboards. The national recruiting web sites will show NDSU's FB recruits. Sure, it's not that big of a deal but at least we'll exist in the DI world.

Seventh, there is the possibility of more with basketball. Nobody really talked about it, but basketball is a huge draw in ND. At NDSU, BB fans aren't really a big part of Team Makers. I was kind of hoping that BB fans would end up becoming just as big a part of Team Makers and FB fans are. Mock me if you will, but I really think that NDSU will get teams on the schedule that will generate substantially more interest in non-NDSU people than almost all NCC and NSIC teams.

Finally, I thought that the move was going to be tough and that failure was a distinct possibility. The consequences of failure just didn't seem as terrible as people were making out. The Board of Higher Ed and legislature aren't going to let NDSU's athletic department run large deficits. They'd just force NDSU to go back to DII and NDSU would be an independent. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

--------

[RD17]

tony-

Well of course I'm speculating, isn't that what these forums are all about? I simply stated what I think will happen and what my reasoning is.

I do understand your point about the NCC going DI. But unless some of the other schools that definitely have no interest at this time (St. Cloud, Mankato) change their minds, how is a 4 or 5 team conference a viable one? If UND would have made the decision to go DI along with NDSU and SDSU, how would that have changed how things stand today?

JBB-

I don't think hockey was a factor at all in UND's decision not to pursue DI. I think it is mostly due to the fact that Kupchella isn't a huge proponent of sports and he was at SEMO when they were going through their transition to DI in the early 90s.

[JBB]

I dont know how much the BSC gets from the NCAA BB tournament but if the Dakota Schools are added the share for each of the existing members will be reduced by 2.5%. Thats $2,500/$100,000 of revenue. I dont see that as a factor.

The BSC has already stated early on that they werent interested in expanding but would be there to help with out transition. We may be past that now. They said it about a year ago.

Not only is the BSC eligable for the NCAA but dont forget the NIT. In a more competitive league it might not be unusuall to see a BSC team in the NIT and the NCAA. That spells more revenues.

I dont know where these western teams pick up all their non conference games now, but its likely they are traveling just as far. At least the addition of the Dakotas would fix their costs and establish profitable rivalries. At worst travel costs to the Dakotas are simply the cost to get to the Dakota Schools less the exisitng travel costs. These costs wont be huge. every other year for football, once/yr for BB and misc travel for minor sports.

Im sure if you look around you will find fans indifferent or against the move, but the surveys showed Team Makers to be overwhelming in their support. The general admission fans are going to come no matter who we play. The Team Makers are going to pony up the cash. I dont think the informal survey of "15 die hard fans" means a thing except to provide you with some comfort. Public support for this move is a matter of record.

I agree with Tony. This decision will be made on the situation that exists now. Future speculation is just that, the skys the limit. Anything thats possible 2 years from now is possible with the Dakota Schools on board. I think the addition of the Dakota Schools will help anchor the league and provide it with more future stability than it has now.

[RD17]

Allright tony, I'll go through each of your points and give you an idea of what I do or don't agree with:

First, it wasn't UND the spelled the end of NDSU in the DII, it was the NSIC. Since the NSIC has moved up to DII, we've now got about 20 DII schools in the tri-state. If you view the NCAA classification as a market segment, then DII is a lot more crowded, and the new schools aren't much like NCC schools - definitely not state flagships. By going DI, NDSU suddenly finds itself as one of only three DI football-playing schools in MN, ND, WI, and SD. It seemed like a good way to differentiate NDSU from the pack.

I agree that, to an extent, this area now has a large number of D2 schools. I don't think that matters much as far as the market segment goes, however. MSUM doesn't have the fanbase or the media coverage NDSU does even though, theoretically, the two schools play at the same NCAA level. Every single school in the upper midwest could go D2, but UND and NDSU are still going to dominate the local media.

Second, if the survey of likely financial supporters of NDSU's move had come back negatively, I wouldn't have supported the move. It's going to be tough to make it in DI and I was glad that the survey asked if our continued financial support was dependent on winning seasons. The survey gave me a chance to answer without considering whether there were enough other people supporting the move.

Maybe Team Makers' and corporate sponsor's support wouldn't be negatively effected by losing, but what about the average fan whose support will be critical if a move to DI is going to be successful? The local Stop N Gos were giving away free football tickets with a gas fill at the end of the season and only 6-7K showed up to see the best two teams in the conference? You must admit that issue is a concern.

Third, it was time to decide one way or another whether NDSU was going to go DI. Ever since DI-AA was formed, NDSU has been talking about going DI. 25 years of talking is too much.

Agree.

Fourth, NDSU's football team is the engine that drives NDSU sports and NDSU isn't doing well in DII football (even before this year's season). They're winning about 75-80% of their games and they've made it to the playoffs a couple times in the last few years. There are very few programs that are having that kind of success and most of them don't have NDSU's competition. NDSU, the media, and the fans are holding the FB team to a nearly impossible standard - a standard that no team with NDSU's competition can possibly maintain. I wanted NDSU to be the underdog again and to scratch their way back to the top because it's a lot more motivating to be the underdog than being the prohibitive favorite all the time. I've never believed that DI-AA football is much better than DII football at all in the first place so I figured that most good Bison teams could match up with most DI-AA teams already. It follows that adding 27 scholarships might just push NDSU over the top.

Good point.

Fifth, there's the NCAA. I thought that NDSU would benefit from the higher standards that DI demands from recruits, even though they'll have to bypass recruits that they could have gone after before. I also knew that the NCAA was talking about reorganization and thought that being in DI would give NDSU the most options in the event of significant changes. I hate DII's regionalized format, I thought NDSU got screwed when they got sent down to Mississippi in 2000 (and that wasn't the first time), and I figured that the NSIC was going to start getting into the playoffs every year. What's a recruit supposed to think when Winona makes the playoffs and NDSU doesn't? DII had yet to show that they had a long-term plan. To me it seemed likely that we'd have four or more new-from-NAIA conferences join DII by 2005 and that they'd all demand to get into the playoffs in all sports - with the same tactic that's been used before, "either get us into the playoffs or we'll level the playing field (ie reduce scholarships). Maybe DII can navigate those waters, but they've yet to show they have what it takes.

I-AA now has an "unofficial" regionalized format instituted after 9-11 so NDSU won't be able to escape regionality in I-AA. I agree that the NCC gets screwed when it comes to the playoffs and home field.

I don't think there will be that many football playing NAIA schools joining D2 in the near future. If you look at the makeup of the NAIA, there are only about 85-90 schools left that play football. Most of those schools are the old NAIA Division II schools that don't offer much (if any) scholarship aid. I'd venture to guess that most of those schools would go to D3 if they were to make a move.

With the D2 playoffs expanding to 24 and basically granting an automatic bid to every conference in 2004, this should keep the lesser funded conferences quiet for awhile and help the stronger conferences with more playoff berths. It is also looking like the Bush administration is going to weaken the Title IX "quota" requirements early this year and that should help schools struggling financially to free up more money for men's sports.

Sixth, there's the little perks that make recruiting easier. NDSU would finally appear in the web drop-down lists of NCAA teams. Right now, it's like we don't even exist. NDSU will show up on scoreboards. The national recruiting web sites will show NDSU's FB recruits. Sure, it's not that big of a deal but at least we'll exist in the DI world.

I agree, this isn't that big of a deal.

Seventh, there is the possibility of more with basketball. Nobody really talked about it, but basketball is a huge draw in ND. At NDSU, BB fans aren't really a big part of Team Makers. I was kind of hoping that BB fans would end up becoming just as big a part of Team Makers and FB fans are. Mock me if you will, but I really think that NDSU will get teams on the schedule that will generate substantially more interest in non-NDSU people than almost all NCC and NSIC teams.

I won't mock you, but I will disagree. I think there is a possibility of getting some higher profile teams on the schedule, but the chances of getting one of those teams to come to Fargo is virtually nonexistent. In one of your previous posts, you alluded to the fact that NDSU used to get substantially more fans for men's BB a few years ago. Since the Bison play essentially the same schools now is they did in the 80s, the only reason I can see for the drop in fan support is lack of success. I'm not so sure a sub .500 DI basketball team will draw that many more fans than they do now.

Finally, I thought that the move was going to be tough and that failure was a distinct possibility. The consequences of failure just didn't seem as terrible as people were making out. The Board of Higher Ed and legislature aren't going to let NDSU's athletic department run large deficits. They'd just force NDSU to go back to DII and NDSU would be an independent. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

I think the consequences of failure are very high. Being forced to move back to Division II would basically kill all the momentum NDSU's athletic program has gained in the last 40 years.

[UND Fan]

JBB -- you and I have had a couple of civil conversations in the past. While you and many of us UND fans disagree on a lot of issues, I understand your position much of the time. In other words, I don't mind having you contribute to this website.

What I don't understand is why you often take things certain people say out of context to make a point. Go back a couple of posts and read my comment about the 15 Bison fans/boosters that I talked to over the Holidays. I simply said that this is what I experienced, I did not say that, because of this experience, that the vast majority of SU fans were against it. I termed it "interesting" - I made no conclusions. Also, please read the next to the last sentence of my post!

Then read the second to the last paragraph of your post. You will see why you frustrate a lot of people.

[jimdahl]

The only place I've ever seen much hope for significant attendance increases was in non-conference FB games and basketball.

I've tried to make this point a few times as a potential negative for a move that doesn't involve recreating the NCC. I'll use UND moving alone as an example so fans of other schools don't think I'm criticizing their school.

UND's best case dream: Big Sky conference

After the novelty of playing Montana wears off, is a football game against Montana (and especially Sac St., Weber St., Northern Arizona, Portland St.) really going to be a better draw than playing NDSU (and UNC, UNO, SDSU)? Even further, fan bases can drop dramatically when a team puts together a few sub-.500 seasons (look at NDSU attendance this year).

Other possibilities: MidContinent, new conference?

Where's the draw in playing D-IAA schools that are worse than the current NCC teams but that don't have the name recognition as rivals in Grand Forks? I can't imagine in-conference attendance going up in this situation.

I think a move to D-IAA without any natural rivals and that leads to sub-.500 seasons could result in an actual decrease in attendance, whereas the plans that make such a move economically feasible tend to figure in an increase. An annual non-conference game against a D-IA team could help fill some of that revenue, but does little to generate local interest.

That's why I thought the NCC moving (if they could rally enough support) was a no-brainer, whereas moving alone is a lot riskier. We're now in a bit of a hybrid situation in which some of the traditional rivals would leave us if we stayed, but may not be there if we jumped anyway.

Disclaimer: I intentionally ignored stadium size because I was focusing on the possibility of attendance actually decreasing instead of increasing

[tony]

See I like this better - talking without trading insults.

RD17, how do I think it would be different if UND had voted to go DI? The NCC would be DI, scheduling would be easier, travel less of a problem, and just because a school votes "No" doesn't mean they wouldn't stay in the NCC. From UND's perspective, it's a lot easier than going DI w/o the NCC. I'm saying it would be easier, not easy. Oh, and btw, I don't mind speculation as long as it has some basis in reality - a lot of the stuff I've been reading is wishful thinking or out and out BS.

Jim, a team can go below .500 in DII too. If NDSU starts below .500 and improves that's a whole different thing than dominating a division for ten years and then gradually getting worse - especially when some of the things affecting the program, NDSU is helpless to prevent. Heck, I'm a big Bison fan but playing NSIC teams and most all of the NCC teams is not exciting at all in any sport. Can I get thrilled about beating an NSIC team? No and honestly, I never want to see the day that I do get excited about that.

Take the Big Sky: this year in basketball Eastern Washington beat Washington and San Diego State and lost to Nebraska by 3. Montana played Michigan State, Washington State, Stanford, and Loyola Marymount and beat the last two. Montana State beat Washington. Northern Arizona played Arizona and UCLA and beat UCLA. Now even if those aren't home games, what would get you more excited, playing and possibly beating a BCS team or traditional basketball power or having UND play the NCC version of tackle basketball against NSIC teams and quite possibly getting beat?

[star2city]

Anyway, wasn't it you who came up with the idea that UND and UMD are really angling for membership in the Missouri Valley Conference? You can't really think that the Missouri Valley is a better fit for NDSU or UND than the Big Sky... can you?

Two or three days away from this board, and the landscape has changed incredibly.

To answer Tony's questions without sarcasm:

Yes. I did post such a message about a way in which to obtain membership in the Mo Valley or Horizon League at least 5-10 years in the future. It is always wise to have multiple options. Neither of these conferences would be ideal, unless a Gateway football conference berth was also obtained. I have also posted messages with my belief that it would be almost be negligent for UND to move to Div I until Grand Forks

[elmduf]

I'm not trying to debate the merits of D-1AA (I can't say D-1, when the football teams truly won't be.). But, I work with a couple of Northern Colorado students who told me that they were told to expect both higher tuition and higher activity fees due to the move of UNC to D-1AA. I am not sure if they had their facts straight. I could see the increase in activity fees, but don't understand the increase in tuition. Is anything like this going on at NDSU?

Just a question. Not trying to start a fight here.

[jimdahl]

Jim, a team can go below .500 in DII too.

Well, this isn't really fair. Sure a team has it's ups and downs, but there's a much higher chance that a school that makes the D-IAA transition to a decent conference will have a worse record over the next 20 years than if they hadn't moved. When all the plans for such a transition assume growing attendance, this could be an issue when combined with my conference concerns...

Heck, I'm a big Bison fan but playing NSIC teams and most all of the NCC teams is not exciting at all in any sport.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the average NDSU fan gets more excited right now to watch UNC, UNO, UND, SDSU come to town than they would be to see Idaho St, Eastern Washington, Portland St, etc... At first playing D-IAA teams may be exciting and draw a crowd and eventually many of those teams will be well-known rivals like the teams I named above. However, in between I think there's a lag-time in which fans wonder why they're paying to watch their school lose to a bunch of crappy teams they've never heard of. The problem gets a lot worse if NDSU doesn't hit the dream of Big Sky and plays even lesser known (in the Dakotas) teams. That's the likely situation UND faces.

Now even if those aren't home games, what would get you more excited, playing and possibly beating a BCS team or traditional basketball power

I really don't think those get-paid-to-get-beat-up games generate a lot of fan interest back home. I think the die-hard fans love to see them, but I'm not sure they convince anyone new to buy season tickets. I remember hearing much less about the away game in our home/away 2-year series with Kansas basketball. I do understand the allure of the big name opponents, I'm on record as saying that I think a single win in the NCAA basketball tournament would be more meaningful as a fan than a D-II championship. I just think way too many fans think they're going to start flying in Minnesota for wrestling and Duke for basketball if they move to D-IAA.

(Disclaimer -- it's no coincidence that 2-3 of the NCC teams I named as interesting are leaving the NCC).