Div I Conferences will reject Div II Teams

[star2city]

This year, the existing Division I teams enacted new rules to prevent additional teams from moving up to Division I. These rules are intended to prevent further expansion of Division I, which would dilute the money received from the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. Previously, a school moving up would be eligible in three or four years after the move up. As a conference champion, a big money payoff in March Madness could await. The new rules make for an excruciating wait:

Once the institution declares its intent to reclassify from Division II to Division I, it would be eligible for NCAA championships in Division I as an at-large team in five years in all sports. It would be eligible as an automatic qualifier from an existing conference in 7 years in sports other than men

[SDSUFAN]

star2city:

I do not dispute what you have posted here . Right now it appears SDSU will NOT get a conference right out of the chute. I do however know that the conference availability may slow the move to D1 down until a conference is found. This could mean waiting a spell, from 1 to 3 years maybe. In the mean time, SDSU can continue to compete in the NCC and upgrade facilities and improve current D2 programs. The Carr report a good investment and also was very valuable as an adminstrative report. When the SDSU Spring game was cancelled last spring, I spent my time photo coping all 400 pages of this report that was on file at Briggs Libary. This report is extremely helpful since you have outside people looking in on every aspect of all 20 sports and there were a ton of recommendations some small, some big and all had price tags.

I know this will frost the all the UND gonads, but Carr did not recommend adding D1 Hockey.

So what a Conference Commissoioner says today does not get etched in stone. I believe Fred Oien is also going to make a pitch at some of these conferences this year and next spring. With our Frost Arena and a 9100 seating capacity, we may have a selling point there.

There are post season tournaments other than the Big Dance for which each member can participate in during the 13 year waiting period.

[purplemavfan]

With SDSU's basketball facilities and tradition of success, it would make sense for them to move up on basketball alone. Maybe some more AD's and college presidents will be convinced that a conference-wide movement up might be feasible, if done incrementally, i.e.; increase football scholarships each year for five years to reach the requisite 63. I don't know, though, if enough money could be raised at some of the schools, especially those with division I hockey already. What I consider a real injustice is so many very small institutions playing division I basketball, and then having a token football program; in many cases non-scholarship.

[SDSUFAN]

Purplefan:

The rules of D2 allow one sport at D1. In SDSU case, would it be men or women basketball? Some how gender equity would eventually come into play. By the time you have settled your law suits, it might have been better to move all to D1. Thats what I am thinking.

TITLE IX is alive and well. I dont have a problem with that. Women in general are much better in self esteem and are very much productive people because of varsity sports.

Every 5 years my Brookings High Class of 1959 has a reunion. Every reunion, one female classmate who is currently a Roman Catholic Nun and a very dedicated person I might add is present to relive old times. When we were in High School there were no womens sports, but this Sister would have been one whale of an athlete, but other than intermural sports, that was all she had available to compete in. I often wonder what would Sister Janice would have accompolished if the womens sports started on TITLE IX had been in existence in the 1950's. We will never know.

[star2city]

In many respects, I believe the consultants (Carr /CSL) are disingenuous as far as the conference issue. They state a conference is needed before jumping, but yet the consultants know that in almost all cases (UC-Davis an exception), there is a low likelihood that an existing conference will accept a newly declared Div I school because of the NCAA transition rules. This is an unfortunate and dirty little issue that you won

[bancheedog]

SDSU Fan, one you say one sport? What about Mankato, they have two sports that are D1. men's and women's hockey, why couldn't SDSU have both go D1 in basketball.

But come to think of it, I don't think you can. the only reason Mankato and other schools can is because there is no D2 hockey

[The Sicatoka]

Folks,

The NCAA allows you to "play up" in one mens and one womens sports as long as that sport is NOT football or basketball.

That's how UND, SCSU, MSU-Mankato, and UM-Duluth play DI hockey (mens and womens).

[dbarker]

As far as hockey, that would be a money pit at SDSU.  Hockey is only appropriate at certain locations where there is hockey familiarity.

I completely agree with star2city on this one. Hockey would never fly in Brookings. It's kind of unfortunate that neither of South Dakota's main state schools are located in Sioux Falls, as that might completely change the equation. The USHL team in Sioux Falls averages just under 4,000 per game. I have no idea what kind of facility they have in Sioux Falls, but if they can draw that well for junior hockey, I would imagine they would draw quite a bit more for a college program. It's just unfortunate there is no school in Sioux Falls that could realistically add hockey.

[PCM]

I'd love it if SDSU added hockey. Then I could say that I played hockey at at DI school.

[SDSUFAN]

Purplemav:

I guess I stand to be corrected on the one sport criteria for NCAA sports, but then if SDSU moved both basketball progams to D1, would the NCC still allow us to compete in their league? I dont think so. So where do we find a D1 conference. Back to Square one again. There just is not a piece meal solution. About the only thing SDSU can do is move in a very responsible manner in moving up and live with the 5 and 13 year waiting period. This 13 year waiting period has not been tested for legality nor for fairness to the NCAA membership. It could be subsequently shorted by formal complaints and hoards even a law suit. Any UND trained lawyers available?

PCM:

Since the Multiplex building and the hockey arena were built, there is more interest in Hockey in Brookings. They hosted the state tounament of high school clubs last spring. So I would not say "never" to the possiblity of a hockey at SDSU.

[JBB]

It is possible that schools making the move will have to remain independent for a number of years, but not likely. Drawing the conclusion that no conference will accept a school that moves up until the waiting period is over means that no conference will expand for the next 7 to 13 years unless they accept an already eligable independent. It just doesnt seem very likely.

Of course if it is true, as star2city claims, that once the institution declares its intent to reclassify from Division II to Division I, it would be eligible for NCAA championships in Division I as an at-large team in five years in all sports there is little incentive to join a conference for at least 5 years when full eligability is achieved. This may indicate that the Carr report is somewhat off base with the conference conclusion.

Again, if the statement made earlier by star2city is true, by joing a conference it would delay its eligability : It would be eligible as an automatic qualifier from an existing conference in 7 years in sports other than men

[jimdahl]

Again, if the statement made earlier by star2city is true, by joing a conference it would delay its eligability : It would be eligible as an automatic qualifier from an existing conference in 7 years in sports other than men

[PCM]

Since the Multiplex building and the hockey arena were built, there is more interest in Hockey in Brookings.

A friend of mine who has a son in the Pee Wee League says that Sioux Falls is producing teams that give North Dakota teams a run for their money. Heck, there's even an indoor hockey rink in the Pierre-Ft. Pierre metro area, something I never thought I'd see.

South Dakota's interest in hockey is much greater than it was when I attended SDSU back in the 70s.

[purplemavfan]

SDSU Fan: No argument from me that women deserve an equal opportunity to pursue collegiate sports, I definitely support them as you do. My main concern with "gender equity," however, relates to d-1 hockey. At MSU, the men draw very well for the U of M, St. Cloud, North Dakota, and Wisconsin, and fairly well for others. But the women's team draws very few fans, but has about the same costs the men do. Maybe someday women's hockey will catch on, but I'm not holding my breath. Meanwhile, it is a serious money pit. I have been told by sources close to MSU athletics that the "gender equity" concern was never publiclyl addressed when MSU was lobbying for division I hockey back in 94, or whenever it was they got the approval to move up. WCHA hockey has given MSU prestige, but the down side has been the underfunding of the other major sports, football and basketball, over the past decade. Scholarships have been well below nearly all other NCC teams. Anyway---I think it would be a good move for the Jacks to move up, even if they were just competitive in D-AA football, I think they would do quite well in division I basketball; obviously finding a conference is the main item here. I think South Dakota could support one division I program, but I realize the cost factor is a major concern to most citizens.

[star2city]

I don't really see that this provides a disincentive for conferences to allow new ineligible members, either.

[jimdahl]

I guess my argument does hinge on one difference of interpretation regading point "a". I don't think an ineligible school winning the conference tournament would cost the conference its autobid. Conferences traditionally get to determine who they're sending as their autobid. Tradition is to send the conf. tournament winner, but if that team were ineligible, I would have thought the conference could send the runner-up. If I'm wrong on this point, my whole argument unravels

[star2city]

If a conference has a post-season tourney (all do except the Ivy), only the winner is guaranteed an NCAA auto-bid. I don't have specific teams or the year, but in the 1990's I believe the SWAC conference (Grambling, Jackson St, Southern, etc.) almost lost their auto bid for the year because they allowed an ineligible team into the tourney. It made the championship game of their tourney but lost.

Before tournaments were the normal auto-bid route and regular season champions were chosen, a post-season ineligible team would actually play conference teams as per normal, but the games with the ineligible team were considered 'non-conference' in determining the conference regular season champion.

I believe thirteen years to a men's basketball conference auto-bid is a much larger hurdle to conference affiliation than the consultants and certain leadership has led it constituents to believe.

[tony]

When the rest of the NCC decided not to move up, the new conference idea went out the window so the thirteen-year figure is meaningless. It takes eigtht years for a team to become eligible for the postseason in basketball. It takes thirteen years for a new conference to become eligible for an automatic bid. Conferences pick a conference champion, not the NCAA.

There seem to be some other misconceptions.

First, the NDSU folks who decided to go DI are not stupid. Heck, I'm smarter than any UND fan out there - I decided to go to NDSU, didn't I?

Second, our (NDSU folks') sole motivation in making the DI decision was to do what was best for NDSU in the long run. For UND fans, you seem to be analyzing the issue in terms of doing what's best for UND and this makes critical thinking impossible until you address that error. Remember the debate about NDSU's name change and building the FargoDome? In both cases, UND people provided extremely poor arguments against each and were spectacularly wrong in both instances.

Third, the five-year provisional period with an exploratory year was adopted in April, after the Carr Report was released. So when NDSU decided to go DI in September without a conference invitation, I thought that this was completely acceptable because it meant that NDSU had additional time to find a conference without being fully committed to DI. Some UND fans were making conclusions about the honesty of NDSU's administration without acknowledging that the situation had changed. Perhaps they didn't know better - now they do. NDSU should stay in DII, perhaps as an independent, if they don't have a commitment from a conference by the time they have to finalize the decision.

Since I believe that NDSU clearly belongs in DI, this would be a set-back. As waiting accomplishes nothing, it is an acceptable risk. Unlike the arguments against going DI, the arguments for waiting a couple years have no merit at all, although it might make for an interesting side discussion.

[jimdahl]

Conferences pick a conference champion, not the NCAA.

This is what I was arguing above. Everything I've read indicates the conference has sole discretion to choose who gets its "autobid".

It takes thirteen years for a new conference to become eligible for an automatic bid.

Right. I think the confusion between a conference autobid and an individual school's tournament eligibility was resolved earlier. The 13 year limit for an autobid is a combination of the 8 years for its institutions to be eligible plus a requirements that 6 of a conference's members have played 5 years together while being eligible for the tournament before the conference gets an autobid.

For UND fans, you seem to be analyzing the issue in terms of doing what's best for UND and this makes critical thinking impossible until you address that error.

I believe it is you who are in error, Tony. This is a UND-oriented discussion forum, not an NDSU one. We're intentionally discussing a potential move to D-IAA by UND, and the impact of other schools moving only as it relates to UND. Most of us couldn't care less about NDSU's future, EXCEPT how it affects UND.

[JBB]

If, heaven forbid, NDSU did decide to stay D2 I think they would remain a member of the NCC. As far as I know, we are not out of the conference until the end of the provisional year. If we stay put I dont see that we would be forced out. Without a doubt they would like to see us stay.

Its far more likely that we would make the move up as an independent. Our sports schedules would probably be made up of schools from conferences that might be interested in inviting us as well as existing independents. The BSC has already pledged support to help us with scheduling and mentoring us with regard to the move. This falls short of a conference invitation but is certainly a step in the right direction.

I know that the Football team is already taking advantage of this by scheduling with both Montana and Montana State. We have also announced scheduling talks with the Gateway. Western Ill came up for sure.

If SDSU makes the move it is likely that we would be worked in as travel partners. Kind of a test run maybe?

We already have UC-Davis, Montana and Montana State firmed up. As far as I can tell UNC will remain on the schedule. If SDSU remains and the Western Ill home/home works out we are already scheduled to the extent NCC teams would be scheduled in a 7 team league.

I know that the other sports have to be considered as well. Basketball has already made some paliminary announcements but, it goes without saying, it is a challenge.

Tony is right when he puts the view of so many on this board in perspective. I doubt that the nay saying seen here is of any consequence except to ease the minds of people that for one reason or another would like to see NDSU stumble in this endeavour.

[tony]

Okay, I'm going to be a pain in the ass now - just remind yourself while reading this that I'm half-teasing, half-serious and that I'm not really that angry.

Jim Dahl, I think I'm right. History is decidedly on my side. If UND people had their way, there'd be no FargoDome, NDSU would still be NDAC, and NDAC would remain DII until UND finally made up their mind to go themselves (something that their administration has given no clear indication of being willing to do).

In fact, UND scuttled the last chance for having a DI NCC without increasing fixed costs significantly. Oops! If your long term goal is to have UND go DI, taking that position was an unbelievable, colossal mistake. There is no chance for a DI NCC anymore. All the arguments against DI that involve basketball make Northern Iowa rejoining the NCC wishful nonsense. UNC, UND, SDSU, NDSU, and USD - we'd have had a freaking five-four majority and your school botched it. And UND fans were happy about it! All that would have been needed was for one of the NCC teams to come along, or convince UMD or an MIAA team to join up and, voila, you'd have been in a fully-compliant DI conference without increasing travel costs or getting rid of those traditional rivalries you're so worried about. Congratulations! You guys really showed NDSU who wears the clown pants in the family!

That vote was UND's best chance to go DI. Now if NDSU and SDSU leave, UND's chances for going DI are much worse. If I were a UND fan, I would be desperately hoping that NDSU and SDSU stay put or fail. DESPERATELY HOPING. What kind of sorry position is that to put yourself in?

Oh yeah, and what about those who implied that Chapman lied to people about waiting to find a conferenced before going DI? That was motivated by wanting to do what was best for UND, I suppose.

Here's another thing bugging me, there are plenty of arguments offered from UND people, but no conclusions drawn from them. I'd like to have more UND fans come on record and make a case for staying DII or going DI and back it up.

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This rant brought to you by a couple cans of Mountain Dew and various candy bars. This is no way implies that I'm using the "junk food" defense as I sincerely enjoy being a pain in the ass from time to time.

[jimdahl]

History is decidedly on my side.  If UND people had their way, there'd be no FargoDome, NDSU would still be NDAC, and NDAC would remain DII until UND finally made up their mind to go themselves (something that their administration has given no clear indication of being willing to do).

The flaw with this entire paragraph is the same mistake you make every time you visit our boards. You flip back and forth between talking about individual UND fans, UND fans as a collective, UND the institution, and the Grand Forks Herald. I never opposed an NDAC name change. I've never even heard of an NDAC. I suspect the same is true of a lot of people on this board.

We don't have a collective consciousness. Debate occurs on this board whether you're here or not. "UND fans" are not a homogeneous collective.

In fact, UND scuttled the last chance for having a DI NCC without increasing fixed costs significantly. Oops! If your long term goal is to have UND go DI, taking that position was an unbelievable, colossal mistake.

Same mistake. The fans on this board who wanted a DI NCC are not "UND". I want a DI NCC, UND didn't. I know you're confused because you and JBB come here and blindly cheerlead every decision NDSU makes, but a lot of us actually disagree with UND's decisions. Hence the debate.

If I were a UND fan, I would be desperately hoping that NDSU and SDSU stay put or fail. DESPERATELY HOPING. What kind of sorry position is that to put yourself in?

The fact that you wish your opponents ill is obvious. I'd actually like NDSU to succeed wildly because it would increase the chance of UND moving.

Here's another thing bugging me, there are plenty of arguments offered from UND people, but no conclusions drawn from them.

Poppycock. I said repeatedly in September that I think UND should start making phone calls and rally the entire NCC to move. I said that was important because I think UND is going to want to move within a few years anyway, and that I think moving the way NDSU is (alone and without a conference) is stupid. That's why NDSU's choice to move in this manner is relevant to me as a UND fan, and is why I criticize it loudly.

[tony]

Do I really wish UND ill? How is this evident? Pick up some phrases that show a pattern.

Right now, the only way I'm wishing UND ill is this: their administration opposed NDSU's move. Poetic justice would see them having to admit their mistake and try to go DI only to find out that they missed the boat. At some point, in a couple years, NDSU would be in a position to help UND get in to NDSU's conference and everything would be OK again.

[The Sicatoka]

Okay, I'm going to be a pain in the ass now - just remind yourself while reading this that I'm half-teasing, half-serious and that I'm not really that angry.

Jim Dahl, I think I'm right. History is decidedly on my side. If UND people had their way, there'd be no FargoDome, NDSU would still be NDAC, and NDAC would remain DII until UND finally made up their mind to go themselves (something that their administration has given no clear indication of being willing to do).

OK, I can be the same way I guess. I got the license from the above.

NDAC? Good gravy man, who here was alive when the North Dakota Agricultural College became NDSU? Half? Less?

And no FargoDome? Why would UND not want FargoDome. UND is 4 and 1 in there!

Next thing you'll be telling us is that you actually believe in "The Vast Fighting Sioux Conpsiracy" theory about FargoArena too. (That's the one where it was all of the UND alumni in Fargo voting no on the ballot so NDSU couldn't add hockey. The catch is that if you look at the by precinct polling results from that vote, the district that NDSU resides in and votes in (at the Union) voted more no than the rest of the city.)

Again, tony, you seem touchy about all this. What's up? It sounds like NDSU is well on its way to its master plan of Division I status. Why are you so concerned about lil' ol' UND? What has UND (not this privately operated 'net board) done lately that's riled you up?

[tony]

By being a pain in the ass, I'm trying to show you guys what being an NDSU supporter is like (although if that's what JBB is up to, he's overdoing it a lot of the time). Put yourself in an NDSU supporter's shoes for a minute. We have every reason to be suspicious of UND people bearing advice. The name change was a while ago, yes, but unless you're twelve you were around for the public relations efforts to stop the FargoDome, close the Polymers and Coatings Department, and stop the business college from becoming accredited.

I tried to get a feeling for what points a sampling of UND fans are trying to make by looking at the posts you, star2city, and Jim have made but since you've each made more than 50 posts on the DI topic (oops, in UND-land, it's the "division I-AA" topic), it's nearly impossible. Besides, reading them was getting me kind of steamed.

If each of you guys would collect your thoughts on this issue and edit them down in a single post, it would certainly help move this discussion to the next level.

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You can read the posts I've made in this forum up to today's first one right here.