Division 1: Not so fast

[tony]

Hey, I'm a Bison fan so this will probably be my first and last post. I just keep tabs on what you guys are saying.

Here's the deal, if UND doesn't want to go DI, so be it. You can speculate on what NDSU coaches think about the move by looking at the tie that Chapman was wearing at a press conference. You can share the deep insight you've achieved by talking to Team Makers. You can list dozens of reasons that NDSU will fail. You know what? NDSU is still going to go DI.

If you were approaching the issue by talking about why UND should stay in DII or go DI, I wouldn't be bothering you at all. That's not what's happening though. Half the time you're saying NDSU will fail in DI and then in the next sentence saying that UND should move up.

Here's what I suggest. If you want to know what NDSU's coaches think about the move, read their interviews. If you want to know what Team Makers think about the move, read the survey results. If you don't want UND to go DI, talk about UND and leave NDSU out of it. If you think that NDSU is going DI because UND has enjoyed some success in DII, then you might want to consider how well your logic holds up in the light that NDSU has been talking about this for 20+ years. If you think that the Team Makers, NDSU students and alumni, Fargo business leaders, and NDSU's administration all gave the thumbs up to a DI move just to force UND into moving up too... um.... yeah... whatever you say. Hate to break it to you, it was SDSU we were working on

Anybody who follows DII knows that the division is changing in ways that don't suit NDSU. Hoping that the status quo will continue indefinitely doesn't seem like much of a strategy.

[jimdahl]

If you were approaching the issue by talking about why UND should stay in DII or go DI, I wouldn't be bothering you at all. That's not what's happening though. Half the time you're saying NDSU will fail in DI and then in the next sentence saying that UND should move up.

We're discussing the difficulties that NDSU is likely to face because they're well-known, of interest to us as a traditional rival, and likely to apply to UND if we try to jump alone at some point in the future.

That said, we're of many different opinions, so trying to collect our opinions together will reveal inconsistency:

1. Some of us are of the viewpoint that UND should stay because NDSU is going to fail miserably

2. Some of us think that if UND moves now with NDSU and others that it can prevent a lot of the problems that we're talking about for both UND and NDSU

3. Some of us think UND should just go its own way, but acknowledge that NDSU will face a lot of difficulty

People in the #2 camp above (like me) dicuss how some of the difficulties that the Bison will face are mitigated by a bunch of teams moving at once -- that's why I talk about the Bison's potentital difficulties, but still say the Sioux should move. I think the biggest mistake UND could make would be to sit around for five years and then decide to move alone, which will subject them to all the same difficulties the Bison will face now. I'd much rather see UND move now, if ever, and lessen those difficulties for all of us!

I've never seen anyone here say that NDSU will fail, instead we've discussed a lot of the difficulties because they are relevant to UND. Our biggest problem with Bison fans on the board is that they seem to reject the possibility that NDSU will face any difficulty.

[diggerdan]

If you were approaching the issue by talking about why UND should stay in DII or go DI, I wouldn't be bothering you at all. That's not what's happening though. Half the time you're saying NDSU will fail in DI and then in the next sentence saying that UND should move up.

Who are you referring to? You treat the opinions expressed on this board as if they are a collective and therefore, can be attributed to every single UND supporter. There is disagreement on this board on this issue but I would say the majority of us have approached this issue by focusing on what UND should do now that NDSU has decided.

I, for one, have never expressed the opinion that NDSU will fail at D-I although I believe that their probability of success is a valid issue when discussion turns to what UND should do. And, I've already done what you suggested: I've read the interviews with the coaches; I've seen the marketing survey results; h*ll, the Forum is the only paper I subscribe to.

Finally, as a taxpayer of North Dakota who has also sent tuition $$ down to Fargo, I have a vested interest in what happens at NDSU, despite the fact that I cheer for the Sioux.

[BisonSuck]

Trying not to beat a dead horse here.......

I think a majority of UND fans, as well as NDSU fans are upset about is the Sioux/Bison rivalry that maybe in jeopardy. Things have already changed with UND holding back to make their decision and NDSU plowing ahead (which makes October 12th, 2002 a monumental day). Every football season we all wait for that one day, it doesn't matter the records, present or past. Win or lose, you don't forget it for a year, now it may change.

My opinion is clear (leaving all financial gains asside and speaking as a true fan): UND and NDSU should stay together, where ever that may be. There is no question going DI will have its bumps.

Don't let my username fool you, I still respect their decision. Just wish it went both ways.

[tony]

Hey, I don't want to offend you guys and I've got better things to do than be a troll here (besides JBB has the job covered) so I'll only respond if you indicate that you want me to.

NDSU and Northern Colorado are going DI regardless of how many arguments the Herald comes up with. NDSU has two full years to find a conference. Even if NDSU doesn't find a conference in the next two years, I'm not sure there's that much risk involved because the provisional year is designed to give the schools a buffer.

A DI NCC is no longer an option. This means that having UND stay DII is better for NDSU in my opinion. The only scenario in which UND going DI helps out is this: SDSU decides to stay in DII *and* NDSU finds a conference that will only take UND and NDSU as a package. Every other scenario works to our mutual disadvantage.

[Riverman]

Tony, I think Jim does a great job it what he stated the only person who might be a little negative about the Bison is ScottM.

But unlike jbb, he at least uses large caps where he's supposed to.

Terry the former UND-AD. I think could help UND-and NDSU. NDSU has a meeting in Oct correct? What if at that time the Big Sky said: Well we would like to have you join BUT what if you could get UND to come along.

Sure no body likes a little brother tagging along but if it would get you in the door I wonder what the Bison faithful would say?

IMHO, NDSU needs UND and UND needs NDSU. plain and simple.

I think UND might be waiting until 2004 and seeing how or if the NCAA is going to shake up the D1-D1aa-D1aaa's.I just hope by waiting UND is not shooting themselves in the foot.

[star2city]

In the arguments for and against Division I, a larger view of what the role of a university should be considered. While I would love to see UND excel in Division I in all sports, there are so many more fundamental issues in this state and region that absolutely must be addressed: economic development, the near abandonment of large sections of North Dakota, and reasonable wages for graduates to stay. If a large benefactor wants to give a gift to the UND athletic department, that is wonderful (thank you Ralph Engelstad) and it has significantly improved the quality of life. But it seems the major focus of UND should be on academics, research, and improving the livelihood of its state and community. Rather than 3000 alumni giving $1000 each to the athletic department so it can go Division I, wouldn't North Dakota and Grand Forks would be much better served by that kind of money going into business startups in GF and surrounding communities? UND going Division I in all sports will not improve the quality of life in North Dakota or the college experience at UND, and it would probably worsen it because less focus, effort, and money would be placed on economic development. Is it reasonable to project that UND athletics will ever have higher attendance than last year's? So who would pay for a higher level? Why would we want to risk messing up an athletic department that is continuously improving facilities, is involving more non-athletes (Wellness Center), has the respect and backing of the public and student body, and has athletes that are truly students? Why would we want to move to Division I, when we are, at best, Division II economically as a state? What is wrong with being aspiring to be the Rome or Athens of Division II, for the time being?

Measure 3 is a sort of cry of desperation, and the universities, alumni associations, and businesses need to understand that. I personally believe it is irresponsible of leadership to move to Division I with the kind of situation North Dakota faces. When the economics in North Dakota is reversed and North Dakota is actually gaining population (what a novelty!), that would be an appropriate time to move to Division I (but only if it is in a conference of peer institutions). If current trends persist, in another generation the number of North Dakota high school graduates will be half of what it is now. That fact more than any other is the chief threat to UND. NDSU and Fargo can do what they want for their own self-interest, but UND should and can do what is best for the whole state.

Thanks for letting me get on my soapbox!!

As additional food for thought: compare the direction of these two schools, which are nearly the same size and located in similar sized communities. Both communities desperately need economic opportunities. Which university is showing wisdom?

University of South Dakota

Coyotes

University of Idaho

Vandals

[Riverman]

star,Rome- Athens-North Dakota!

UND-NDSU press release today:

N.Dakota's two U's moving up the ranks that get money from Congress

earmarked for research. Fri.issue of the Chronicle of Higher Ed. shows that

ND moved up Six spots this year to 25.

In a ranking of 668 schools,NDSU advanced 20 spots over the past 4yrs.

No.43 w/9.4 million.UND w/9million jumped also to No.45 (one rung over)

John Hopkins University!

Soap Box Alert!!!

Don't even get me started on how the Republicans have had almost 10yrs

to develop a program to create higher paying jobs. We can only have so many Fishin' Dakota's eh Ed?

Think Lotto-ND/ Education when you vote this year in North Dakota!

And Tell Link to shut up!

I can wait until 2004 to see how the NCAA shakes out.I am glad UND has a trump card w/D1 hockey mens and womens.

I yield the soap box.

[jimdahl]

I agree wholeheartedly that economic development in ND and Grand Forks is a big problem -- one that certainly isn't solved by paying people to stay in state (a vicious circle of gathering money from all residents and redistributing it to those who make the most threats that they might leave).

That said, it's a reality of modern education that athletics is one of the most visible marketing efforts a school makes. There are plenty of counter examples, but UND is no MIT. Strong athletics programs are definitely a draw for students and increase name recognition.

While there are clearly more direct ways to spend money to increase a school's student base and research prowess than investing in athletics, strong athletics programs can contribute to a school's recognition.

[Riverman]

I think we should add rifle as a D1 sport.

Also I thought this interesting a small blip in the paper mentioned equestrian as a future women's sport. Makes you wonder which sport ndsu will cut to add this sport.

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/membership...cs/sponssummary

Check out the site where NDSU might be getting their ideas.

[bisonguy]

Women's equestrian may be a possible addition to counter the added scholarships for football. NDSU cannot cut any sports, as they have the minimum required for D1 right now(men's and women's).

[The Sicatoka]

bisonguy:

Isn't the minimum 7M/7W (or 6M/8W)? I thought NDSU was 8M/8W today.

[jimdahl]

bisonguy:

Isn't the minimum 7M/7W (or 6M/8W)? I thought NDSU was 8M/8W today.

I've actually seen conflicting reports on this. The current bylaws, as far as I can read, indicate that for D-IAA that you only need 7/7 or 6/8. However, I've seen Fargo press sources repeat the 16 figure (required for I-A) many times.

D-IAA requirements:

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi....1&p_CallCount=1

D-I requirements:

https://goomer.ncaa.org/wdbctx/LSDBi/LSDBi....1&p_CallCount=1

[tony]

The minimum number of sports for a DI institution is 14. Under Division II guidelines NDSU has 14 sports. In Division I, mens indoor track, mens outdoor track, womens indoor track, and womens outdoor track are counted as four separate sports.

Just to make sure that everybody gets this clear: next year, NDSU will have at least 16 DI sports. In addition, they'll probably add another women's sport to get it up to 17 sometime within the next couple of years.

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One thing that should be mentioned is that NDSU can play D2 schools next year but not in 2003-2004. In 2004-2005, I think that NDSU can mix one or two D2 schools back into the schedule.

Hell, sorry for bugging you guys again but maybe this post will clear some things up once and for all.

[jimdahl]

Just to make sure that everybody gets this clear: next year, NDSU will have at least 16 DI sports. In addition, they'll probably add another women's sport to get it up to 17 sometime within the next couple of years.

Good, this is what I thought. NDSU will have a minimum of 16 sports next season, but only need 14 to be a member of D-IAA. Though the Bison plan on adding some women's sports to offset the increasing football scholarships for men, the option will exist in the future to drop a couple sports and still meet the minimum sponsorship requirements.

This is what I've thought since I learned that NDSU will have 16 instead of 14 in D-I, but every now and then I run into someone who claims that NDSU actually needs 16 instead of 14.