Perspective

[squirtcoach]

Just curious, Did the Loos kid transfer through open enrollment to Moorhead or did his parents move across the river? Can an ND kid even do that? Keep in mind I never blame a kid for transferring if he thinks it helps his hockey chances or for better education. Someone even talked to my kid about playing baseball at a neighboring school. I am just seeing some of the more successful public high school programs in the state are becoming all-star teams from their region. Duluth East and Elk River are two that come to mind. There are more out there. Do others find this troubling or is it just the evolution of the sports? Is it the only way to compete with the Holy Angels, Hill-Murrays, Brecks and Blakes?

[jloos]

Just curious, Did the Loos kid transfer through open enrollment to Moorhead or did his parents move across the river? Can an ND kid even do that? Keep in mind I never blame a kid for transferring if he thinks it helps his hockey chances or for better education. Someone even talked to my kid about playing baseball at a neighboring school. I am just seeing some of the more successful public high school programs in the state are becoming all-star teams from their region. Duluth East and Elk River are two that come to mind. There are more out there. Do others find this troubling or is it just the evolution of the sports? Is it the only way to compete with the Holy Angels, Hill-Murrays, Brecks and Blakes?

They moved to Moorhead. They were looking to move anyway, after talking to Morinville they decided to cross the river. It remains to be seen if being a standout on a average North team or being another face in the crowd on a very good Moorhead team will better his chances of being noticed. Being named to the all tourny team at State should help.

[jnv]

I didn't know about the baseball programs and it's nice to hear that GF doesn't have those politics anymore. It never happen to me firsthand (cuz I sucked) but a few people I know it did.

In ND person for person I think Grafton PR (my opinion) has the best talent. For such a small town they produce good teams every year. I know Warroad has used Marvin Windows to "recruit" parents for their hockey program, has Roseau ever used the Arctic Cat factory in the same way or have they all been true Roseau products? I don't want to sound like Warroad has just recruited all their talent in either, I know they have always had a great program but I know in cases like Wyatt Smith, it has happened.

Arctic Crap is in TRF, it's Polaris here in Roseau!

There have not been any "Polaris recruits" for hockey that I know of. There have been the occasional player that does come to play here, but I don't recall many (if any) where the parents move here for a job, and they just happen to have a VERY GOOD hockey player

I believe there were close to 5-6 players who weren't "natives" on this years Warroad team. We just come to expect it lately!

[Sandman]

Fanfromafar,

GF Central has won state around 26-27 times, GF Red River 11-13 times, Grafton/Grafton-PR 4-5 times, and I think it's Fargo North 4 times, and South is 2-3 times. I'm not sure about the exact times because I don't have one of the tournament programs in front of me, but I do know the Grafton teams have taken home the title more than any one Fargo team. Besides the one Minot title (the only west title), I think those are the only teams to ever win state. I know Red River and Central tied one year, but I'm not positive on the exact numbers. Central did win the first 10 state tournys, and I'm not sure if GF St. James was a co-champ sometime back then.

Back to MN vs ND, two years ago when Central won it with Casey Moreland, Central had only lost one game the whole season and it was to Red River where half of the players, including and more importantly Moreland, were ejected. Warroad, who won state in A that year only lost two games the whole year, one to GF Central 2-1. It is only one example where ND's best played MN's best and by the score it could've gone either way. It does show though that when ND has dominate teams they can beat the best MN teams. Now if Central were to have played the AA champ that year who knows, but if Moreland was playing the way he did in the EDC regional through state I'd have to put my money on Central no matter which MN team they were playing. Moreland was just playing to good at the end of the season to bet against.

[Sandman]

Arctic Crap is in TRF, it's Polaris here in Roseau!

There have not been any "Polaris recruits" for hockey that I know of. There have been the occasional player that does come to play here, but I don't recall many (if any) where the parents move here for a job, and they just happen to have a VERY GOOD hockey player

I believe there were close to 5-6 players who weren't "natives" on this years Warroad team. We just come to expect it lately!

Got it

[skateshattrick]

One other point. If Fargo didn't have so damn many hockey organizations and had them all under one roof so to speak like Moorhead....Fargo would be awfully tough to beat. Too many hockey parent egos are getting in the way.

I agree with your first point. I disagree with your last. Remember that Moorhead Youth Hockey, which runs hockey in Moorhead, is privately-owned, e.g., a parent run organization. Fargo's problem is not that it is privately-owned, it is that it has too many competing organizations and it is difficult to get them under one roof. I also agree that the Fargo Flyers are very strong starting with this year's sophomore class all the way down through Squirts. The team that just won Bantam A state was generally considered one of the weaker groups and had an exceptional year. It only gets better in the next few years.

[Fanfromafar]

Fanfromafar,

GF Central has won state around 26-27 times, GF Red River 11-13 times, Grafton/Grafton-PR 4-5 times, and I think it's Fargo North 4 times, and South is 2-3 times.  I'm not sure about the exact times because I don't have one of the tournament programs in front of me, but I do know the Grafton teams have taken home the title more than any one Fargo team. Besides the one Minot title (the only west title), I think those are the only teams to ever win state. I know Red River and Central tied one year, but I'm not positive on the exact numbers. Central did win the first 10 state tournys, and I'm not sure if GF St. James was a co-champ sometime back then.

Back to MN vs ND, two years ago when Central won it with Casey Moreland, Central had only lost one game the whole season and it was to Red River where half of the players, including and more importantly Moreland, were ejected. Warroad, who won state in A that year only lost two games the whole year, one to GF Central 2-1. It is only one example where ND's best played MN's best and by the score it could've gone either way. It does show though that when ND has dominate teams they can beat the best MN teams. Now if Central were to have played the AA champ that year who knows, but if Moreland was playing the way he did in the EDC regional through state I'd have to put my money on Central no matter which MN team they were playing. Moreland was just playing to good at the end of the season to bet against.

I'll take your word on Grafton's titles.

I am not slamming ND hockey and recognize Grand Forks teams have beat some of the best teams in MN in the past. It just doesn't happen very often -- which frustrates me given the success the younger age groups have against the same teams. Also, it is a big difference between beating Warroad, which is a great accomplishment, to consistently beating Moorhead and other AA contenders.

As jloos alluded to in an earlier post, the Central teams in the mid 1990s (with the Panzers, Occonnell, and other D1 players) were extremely talented yet had very little success against MN teams and didn't even have a close game against Moorhead during my time on the team. I'm just curious about what they do differently on the other side of the river besides having better competition to develop their players.

Grand Forks has started to use AAA teams at the peewee and bantam levels (Red Army and Blackhawks, I believe) which may produce better players in the future; but are these players more likely to leave early?

[jloos]

Judging by what I've seen of the youth hockey program in Fargo, I believe that South will become dominant within the next 10 years.

That is the problem with Fargo - they get a group of kids that dominate youth hockey then fizzle out. The current Junior class at North was unstoppable up to Bantam's, they didn't even make it to state this year. I've heard a lot of people blame Smith and Wilson, not sure how far that goes. IMO Smith is a terrible coach, I don't know much about Wilson. I do know South's JV coach - Curt Smith is one of the best.

It seems Fargo kids have more problems with drugs and other teenage rebellion like problems in high school. Two of the best players on my North team pissed away their talents in the mid 90's. After GF lost 1/2 of their players to the Bears/ Ice Sharks North should have been the favored to win state but still managed to screw up.

I hope South does start building a good a good program, but I'll believe it when I see it, until then the GF schools are always going to be favored.

[skateshattrick]

That is the problem with Fargo - they get a group of kids that dominate youth hockey then fizzle out. The current Junior class at North was unstoppable up to Bantam's, they didn't even make it to state this year. I've heard a lot of people blame Smith and Wilson, not sure how far that goes. IMO Smith is a terrible coach, I don't know much about Wilson. I do know South's JV coach - Curt Smith is one of the best.

It seems Fargo kids have more problems with drugs and other teenage rebellion like problems in high school. Two of the best players on my North team pissed away their talents in the mid 90's. After GF lost 1/2 of their players to the Bears/ Ice Sharks North should have been the favored to win state but still managed to screw up.

I hope South does start building a good a good program, but I'll believe it when I see it, until then the GF schools are always going to be favored.

That North class was not unstoppable. They won Pee Wee A state, but only because they all grew prematurely and were a head taller than everyone else. By the time that they hit Bantams, they were not that great. They took 5th in State, and beat the Flyers in OT to do so. The Flyers beat them and tied them the other 2 times, and that was one of the weakest Flyer groups (probably the last of them). Predictably, they are not that good now, particularly with their only goal scorer now on Moorhead. Since that group, the Raiders have beaten a Flyers A team only once at any level. The Raider Bantam A's fluked out a 2-1 victory the 1st time they played this year, but got beat 7-0 the next time. They got swept at every other level the past 2 years.

[jloos]

That North class was not unstoppable. They won Pee Wee A state, but only because they all grew prematurely and were a head taller than everyone else. By the time that they hit Bantams, they were not that great.

That is why I said up until Bantams In fairness to them, Cory, Halstenson and I believe Bjoralt all played high school as 9th graders - could have made a diffence in winning Bantam A state. IMO North will never win state with Smith at the helm, Wilson has at least won a couple of championships. I don't doubt South will have some good years, but I do not see them taking over Central or RR as the 'favorite' for a long stretch of time.

[skateshattrick]

I didn't really mean to imply that they would take over from Central and/or Red River. I was implying that I think they will join Central and Red River among the elite. Remember that prior to winning the last two state titles, Central had only won as many as South (two) over the previous 18 years. South was only 47 seconds away from winning their 3rd state championship this year, which would have equalled the number that Central has won over the last 20 years.

I agree with you DaveK. It should also be noted that Red River was dominating until GF went to open enrollment. Central would have still been good, but they have had several kids from south GF that would have been required to go to RR before open enrollment, including the Lamoureauxs.

[Fanfromafar]

didn't really mean to imply that they would take over from Central and/or Red River. I was implying that I think they will join Central and Red River among the elite. Remember that prior to winning the last two state titles, Central had only won as many as South (two) over the previous 18 years. South was only 47 seconds away from winning their 3rd state championship this year, which would have equalled the number that Central has won over the last 20 years.

I agree Fargo South should get better in the future. GF hockey seems to cycle between Central and Red River being the best in the state. For a long stretch it was RR, now it's Central. We'll see how it plays out in the future, but I don't see Fargo South quite being on equal footing with the top school; it could be comparable to the other one though.

The biggest reason I can see for both GF teams falling off is if more kids leave early to play Juniors. It's tough to project which team is going be the best in the future because of players leaving early. I think FS lost some players (Magura and Bye?) to juniors early while Central lost Simonson and 2 lammies this year; the most talented bantam players may not be around to play at all in high school. The USHL's age requirements do not do any favors to high school teams.

I am definitely conflicted on the issue of players moving to juniors early. While I understand a player's desire to play the best competition that they can, I like to see the towns that produce the best talent/team actually win state. On the other hand, I would like to see as many ND kids as possible play DI which moving to juniors early should help.

[Sandman]

I agree with you DaveK. It should also be noted that Red River was dominating until GF went to open enrollment. Central would have still been good, but they have had several kids from south GF that would have been required to go to RR before open enrollment, including the Lamoureauxs.

I'm more of a RR fan than Central, only because I never attended there, but if you want to get down on the fact that the Lamoureaux's live in the south end of town and attend Central, go back to when I went to RR and the Roughriders probobly wouldn't have won state in 96' and 97' without Paul Murphy and Mark Bry.

Again, not trying to bash Fargo hockey, but Fargo is dominate in so many other sports that I don't think they'll be in the ranks of RR or Central and Grafton. Maybe I'll be proved wrong in the next few years but year after year they haven't made it to the state tourny as much as Grafton. Fargo schools are almost like a AA school and should compete with them every year. In the past ten years or whatever they might have as many state champions but have only made the tournament a handfull of times, RR, Central, and Grafton PR are always there.

[UND92,96]

You can make a case that Central is slightly ahead of South, although that case would have been a lot tougher to make if the Bruins had been able to hold on for another 47 seconds.

By the same token, if Simonson and the Lamoureaux's had been playing for Central instead of a junior team, South is likely never in a position to win the game, so it's all a matter of how you look at it. The fact of the matter is that Central has generally made it to state far more consistently than has South.

When comparing Central to Red River over the last 20 years, the main difference is the fact that Grand Forks has grown almost exclusively to the south (aside from the Congressional developments to the west), and Red River traditionally has been the school where south-end kids go. With open enrollment, the south end advantage has lessened some, but in general south end kids are still going to go to Red River, and I would guess that there are far more hockey-playing kids on the south end than the north end.

[jloos]

If you were to look at North from 78-85 you could say North is going to be the next powerhouse. Bismarck and Minot from 89-93. Schools go up and down. The fact is overall RR, Central and Grafton are the most consistent programs in the state. South should have a few good years, but this is the first year they have even made it to state in a few years. South was terrible in 95-96, their team that won state in 94 was not that good, was a good example of what a hot goalie can do - Matt Burm (who never played Flyers ) played an incredible tourny.

Sorry to say the fact the Flyers have a good group of Squirts means little. The fact the Bantam A's had a good team probably is a good indication South will have good teams the next 3-4 years. After that who knows?

[skateshattrick]

If you were to look at North from 78-85 you could say North is going to be the next powerhouse. Bismarck and Minot from 89-93. Schools go up and down. The fact is overall RR, Central and Grafton are the most consistent programs in the state. South should have a few good years, but this is the first year they have even made it to state in a few years. South was terrible in 95-96, their team that won state in 94 was not that good, was a good example of what a hot goalie can do - Matt Burm (who never played Flyers ) played an incredible tourny.

Sorry to say the fact the Flyers have a good group of Squirts means little. The fact the Bantam A's had a good team probably is a good indication South will have good teams the next 3-4 years. After that who knows?

Very well put. However, I will say that the Flyers (the south end team) is very good at a number of levels, so they may have turned the corner. Last year, the Flyer Squirt A, PeeWee A and Bantam A all split with Moorhead. How many A teams can even say they beat Moorhead which is always strong? This year's Bantam A (generally considered much weaker than the very strong group now sophomores) just won Bantam A state. Next year's Bantam A's are even stronger and should be one of the favorites. The PeeWee A's this year took 3rd, losing to Grafton in the semifinal game in OT. The PeeWee group next year should as strong or stronger. The Squirt A this year was probably the best team in the State, so the Flyers are loaded. The Raiders have been down for a few years. This may be a cycle, but I don't think so. The Flyers have quietly built a strong program which is helped by the numbers and a strong Squirt coordinator.

[Fanfromafar]

Actually, if we're talking recent history... it's pretty even. Central and South have both participated in the state tournament 6 of the last 8 years. If you want to go way back I won't disagree that South's program didn't measure up. I think in the years since their first state championship in 1994, they have established themselves as one of the top teams in the state. If the Fargo Flyers squirts team is any indication of what lies ahead of us, look out!!! They beat the GF Blues red team this year 7-0, 10-3, and and 7-0. They beat the GF Supras 11-0, 17-1, and 4-1. The only GF team that could compete with them was the GF Blues blue team. They played three times. The Blues won the first game 5-1, the second game was a 5-5 tie, and the Flyers won the third game 5-0. The Flyers squirts also beat Warroad twice, 5-0 and 3-1... and split two games with Roseau, a 5-3 win and a 2-1 loss. Overall they were 28-4-1.

http://www.intraconnect.com/fargoflyers/sq..._highlights.htm

I think you are relying a little too much on numbers. Let's put it like this: if you were an opposing coach over this time frame, who would you least like to play? I would put Fargo South behind RR, Cent, and GPR during this time, but I am admittedly biased; however, I think the majority of people would place them there.

Jloos, that 1994 FS team beat one of Central's most talented teams in the '90s. There were at least 5 future DI guys who ran into a stone wall that night.

[Sandman]

The fact is overall RR, Central and Grafton are the most consistent programs in the state.

jloos stated is pretty good here. Consistency is the key word, and for a program of two rural towns with 10000 people max and no cheap recruiting scams thats amazing.

[jloos]

Very well put. However, I will say that the Flyers (the south end team) is very good at a number of levels, so they may have turned the corner. Last year, the Flyer Squirt A, PeeWee A and Bantam A all split with Moorhead. How many A teams can even say they beat Moorhead which is always strong? This year's Bantam A (generally considered much weaker than the very strong group now sophomores) just won Bantam A state. Next year's Bantam A's are even stronger and should be one of the favorites. The PeeWee A's this year took 3rd, losing to Grafton in the semifinal game in OT. The PeeWee group next year should as strong or stronger. The Squirt A this year was probably the best team in the State, so the Flyers are loaded. The Raiders have been down for a few years. This may be a cycle, but I don't think so. The Flyers have quietly built a strong program which is helped by the numbers and a strong Squirt coordinator.

I will have to agree with you, I didn't realize the Southside was so strong at every level. South's JV team was the best in the state, their varsity team next year should be the best, Weisgarber is very talented, reminds me of Irmen. He needs some size, other than that he is a very complete player. Hopefully they can keep it up, would be nice to see some South kids at the D1 level, the only one I know of is McLean at Army, I think he graduates this year. By the numbers I've heard South is going to be a dominant team for years, looks like it may actually come true for the next 5-10 years. As a Northsider I feel a little jealous and hope the best players from the Flyers see the light and move north or turn Catholic.