Eight Bison football players charged

[82SiouxGuy]

Football coaches are hired to win games. This isn't high school. If Mussman, Bohl or any other coach was 0-11 two years in a row, but had the highest graduation rate and highest GPA with zero criminal offenses, they would still be out of a job.

They broke the law and are being punished accordingly.

Do you think UND or NDSU or any other school has a team rule against what they did? I highly doubt it.

Which I believe is part of the reason Bohl let the process play out. There is hardly a precedent for what happened.

If you listened to the press conference earlier this week, even Bohl says you are wrong. He said "the number 1 goal is to educate them. Are they going to be a better person when they leave here?" I'm pretty sure those were his exact words about 13 1/2 or 14 minutes into the press conference. Yes, his job is to win football games. But this isn't the NFL. Winning isn't the only thing for college coaches or teams. It isn't even the only thing for NFL teams, coaches have lost their jobs when their players have been out of control. They have to win games for him to keep his job, but education of the players is supposed to be the number 1 goal for everyone on campus. Only at places like NDSU do large groups of people believe that winning is the only thing that matters.

I doubt that any team has a specific rule against committing voter fraud. But they should have rules against breaking the law and embarrassing the school. The players obviously broke those team rules.

[Bison06]

So breaking the law is not against team rules? If NDSU thinks doing extra laps for those players who didn't get suspended is punishment enough...it will catch up to them. The media isn't stupid. This won't go away.

So should players be suspended for speeding tickets? Running a red light? Being out past curfew?

Breaking the law isn't sufficient cause for suspension, it is left up to the coach.

[82SiouxGuy]

I know this isn't a popular opinion, because in some ways it sounds like me diminishing what they've done. But, I don't think this would be a big deal anywhere but slow news ND.

Look at the sentences they received, even in the eyes of the law this isn't a big deal.

You make it sound like NDSU is U of Miami in the 80's. If it is truly out of control, not just UND fans thinking it is out of control, than yes even 11-0 and national championships won't save your job.

But it isn't Miami of the 80's, it isn't anything. Bohl has a track record of being a disciplined coach and running a clean locker room outside of a few bad apples that every team deals with. Hardly out of control from any objective perspective.

My bottom line is this: If the legal system has already punished the players, it isn't Coach Bohl job to punish the players further unless he wants to. Given it is his job to win games, why would he go out of his way to punish them above and beyond what our legal system has already done?

You are diminishing this. Basing your definition of the seriousness on the plea agreement for a first time offense when they cooperated with the legal system is not giving it full consideration. Many first offenders get off with a light sentence.

It seems to be news all over the country, so it isn't just in North Dakota. No, it hasn't reached the level of Miami, but there are a pretty significant number of players on the team that have spent time in court.

And according to your president, it is up to the coach to provide a punishment beyond the legal system. According to his definition, the players would be punished by the legal system, the Dean of Students according to the Code of Conduct, and the football team or athletic department. The punishments are separate, and should not be based on the other punishments given. I'm pretty sure that the athletic department has some rules about breaking laws, that is what the punishments should be based on. Not whether they got a fine or some other punishment from the legal system.

[darell1976]

So should players be suspended for speeding tickets? Running a red light? Being out past curfew?

Breaking the law isn't sufficient cause for suspension, it is left up to the coach.

You don't go to court for speeding, running a red light (unless you want to fight the ticket), you go to court for major offenses, DUI, Sex crimes, and voter fraud.

If the legal system has already punished the players, it isn't Coach Bohl job to punish the players further unless he wants to.

But coming out and saying no suspensions before they even go to court that just shows his true colors (green and gold no matter what).

[82SiouxGuy]

So should players be suspended for speeding tickets? Running a red light? Being out past curfew?

Breaking the law isn't sufficient cause for suspension, it is left up to the coach.

There should be some kind of understandable hierarchy of punishment based on the seriousness of the crime. Speeding tickets and such are much lower level crimes than a class A misdemeanor. That seems to be the part that you and most NDSU football fans do not get. You should be able to predict that if you commit some kind of offense at such a level, or higher, that you have a predictable punishment. Something just short of a felony, that probably deserves at least a 1 game suspension.

[darell1976]

There should be some kind of understandable hierarchy of punishment based on the seriousness of the crime. Speeding tickets and such are much lower level crimes than a class A misdemeanor. That seems to be the part that you and most NDSU football fans do not get. You should be able to predict that if you commit some kind of offense at such a level, or higher, that you have a predictable punishment. Something just short of a felony, that probably deserves at least a 1 game suspension.

Which next year voting fraud could be a Class C Felony.

[Bison06]

If you listened to the press conference earlier this week, even Bohl says you are wrong. He said "the number 1 goal is to educate them. Are they going to be a better person when they leave here?" I'm pretty sure those were his exact words about 13 1/2 or 14 minutes into the press conference. Yes, his job is to win football games. But this isn't the NFL. Winning isn't the only thing for college coaches or teams. It isn't even the only thing for NFL teams, coaches have lost their jobs when their players have been out of control. They have to win games for him to keep his job, but education of the players is supposed to be the number 1 goal for everyone on campus. Only at places like NDSU do large groups of people believe that winning is the only thing that matters.

I doubt that any team has a specific rule against committing voter fraud. But they should have rules against breaking the law and embarrassing the school. The players obviously broke those team rules.

C'mon 82, that is an awfully naive view that is fine for the papers and a press conference, but that isn't really the way it works.

As I have said in past posts, of course you can't have a program completely out of control, you have to meet minimum requirements for grades, graduation rates etc. But, if you meet the minimum for those things nobody is going to fire you for not producting Rhode's scholars or Nobel Prize winner's.

Now, as a guy who has pride in the program I played for, I would like NDSU players to keep their noses clean, get amazing grades, never have thier names in the paper for anything negative AND win football games. But I'm also a realist, and if you take a random sampling of any 100 18-22 year olds in the country, odds are a few of them are going to get in trouble from time to time.

As an alum of the school, the football team and a booster, I have no problem with the way he has handled this situation. If our legal system doesn't provide sufficient punishment for you then feel free to contact you representative.

[Bison06]

You don't go to court for speeding, running a red light (unless you want to fight the ticket), you go to court for major offenses, DUI, Sex crimes, and voter fraud.

But coming out and saying no suspensions before they even go to court that just shows his true colors (green and gold no matter what).

If you take the quote in context Darell, I believe GT was just fed up with the questions and decided to speak up. I will admit, he should have chosen his words more carefully. But, they had just won a huge game and after a long week of answering the same questions it is my belief that he cracked for a moment. He is human after all and I believe his emotions got the best of him.

[Bison06]

There should be some kind of understandable hierarchy of punishment based on the seriousness of the crime. Speeding tickets and such are much lower level crimes than a class A misdemeanor. That seems to be the part that you and most NDSU football fans do not get. You should be able to predict that if you commit some kind of offense at such a level, or higher, that you have a predictable punishment. Something just short of a felony, that probably deserves at least a 1 game suspension.

I was responding to Darell's post about breaking the law is against team rules and deserves punishment.

I understand different levels of crimes have to be taken more seriously, that wasn't my point.

[darell1976]

If you take the quote in context Darell, I believe GT was just fed up with the questions and decided to speak up. I will admit, he should have chosen his words more carefully. But, they had just won a huge game and after a long week of answering the same questions it is my belief that he cracked for a moment. He is human after all and I believe his emotions got the best of him.

Liar!!! He is a robot.

[Bison06]

Which next year voting fraud could be a Class C Felony.

I keep hearing that, but that is completely irrelevant.

[Bison06]

Liar!!! He is a robot.

I know he isn't well liked here, but I have spent a lot of time around GT and he is a very decent man.

[Bison06]

You are diminishing this. Basing your definition of the seriousness on the plea agreement for a first time offense when they cooperated with the legal system is not giving it full consideration. Many first offenders get off with a light sentence.

It seems to be news all over the country, so it isn't just in North Dakota. No, it hasn't reached the level of Miami, but there are a pretty significant number of players on the team that have spent time in court.

And according to your president, it is up to the coach to provide a punishment beyond the legal system. According to his definition, the players would be punished by the legal system, the Dean of Students according to the Code of Conduct, and the football team or athletic department. The punishments are separate, and should not be based on the other punishments given. I'm pretty sure that the athletic department has some rules about breaking laws, that is what the punishments should be based on. Not whether they got a fine or some other punishment from the legal system.

I agree, and under those rules it is my understanding that the coach has final say on a player's punishment. If Bohl doesn't feel they need to punished futher than I am on board with that.

[82SiouxGuy]

C'mon 82, that is an awfully naive view that is fine for the papers and a press conference, but that isn't really the way it works.

As I have said in past posts, of course you can't have a program completely out of control, you have to meet minimum requirements for grades, graduation rates etc. But, if you meet the minimum for those things nobody is going to fire you for not producting Rhode's scholars or Nobel Prize winner's.

Now, as a guy who has pride in the program I played for, I would like NDSU players to keep their noses clean, get amazing grades, never have thier names in the paper for anything negative AND win football games. But I'm also a realist, and if you take a random sampling of any 100 18-22 year olds in the country, odds are a few of them are going to get in trouble from time to time.

As an alum of the school, the football team and a booster, I have no problem with the way he has handled this situation. If our legal system doesn't provide sufficient punishment for you then feel free to contact you representative.

So now you are telling us that Bohl wasn't sincere, that it was all just a show. He didn't actually mean that statement. Which means he probably didn't mean any of his statements that evening. The entire press conference was just to quiet the critics. Bohl really isn't concerned with making better adults of his players. He is only about winning. Which is exactly what has been said on this board for years. Thanks for confirming for us.

Sorry, but I expect athletic coaches in college to be about more than winning. The statement he made is exactly what I expect out of college coaches. If I were an alumnus of NDSU I would be embarrassed by the conduct of the players and by the poor way it was handled by the coach, the athletic director, and to a lesser extent by the president. If you want to make a comparison to the hockey team party, as a UND alumnus I am embarrassed by that whole situation. I like that the coach and the athletic director took a quick stance, and I hope they did enough to teach the team some lessons. But I still feel that something more probably should have been done before the party when 2 players had been arrested for minors just a couple of weeks earlier. College athletics is still about college, the whole win at all costs attitude does not belong in college athletics.

[82SiouxGuy]

I keep hearing that, but that is completely irrelevant.

It shows that it is a more serious crime than NDSU seems to think.

[Bison06]

It shows that it is a more serious crime than NDSU seems to think.

No it doesn't, it shows they would like it to carry a more serious penalty moving forward. Using that logic, I'll just start smoking weed now. After all it will likely be de-criminalized sometime in the next few years, that shows it is a less serious crime than some people think, right?

[Bison06]

So now you are telling us that Bohl wasn't sincere, that it was all just a show. He didn't actually mean that statement. Which means he probably didn't mean any of his statements that evening. The entire press conference was just to quiet the critics. Bohl really isn't concerned with making better adults of his players. He is only about winning. Which is exactly what has been said on this board for years. Thanks for confirming for us.

Sorry, but I expect athletic coaches in college to be about more than winning. The statement he made is exactly what I expect out of college coaches. If I were an alumnus of NDSU I would be embarrassed by the conduct of the players and by the poor way it was handled by the coach, the athletic director, and to a lesser extent by the president. If you want to make a comparison to the hockey team party, as a UND alumnus I am embarrassed by that whole situation. I like that the coach and the athletic director took a quick stance, and I hope they did enough to teach the team some lessons. But I still feel that something more probably should have been done before the party when 2 players had been arrested for minors just a couple of weeks earlier. College athletics is still about college, the whole win at all costs attitude does not belong in college athletics.

Yeah, nobody has ever said anything in a press conference to appease the masses. I take it you didn't watch the presidential debate last night.

College athletics is more than just about winning, but coaches are hired to win football games. If they are also a great guy who kicks out amazing people who go on to great things, that is just a bonus. I do have that expectation of NDSU, all I'm saying is it isn't required. I hold them to a higher standard than their job description might.

He may not say it in public, but be honest with yourself. Would Mussman take a few guys with minor offseason trouble and a national championship over a non-playoff year where nobody on the team was even picked up for J-Walking? Seriously think about it. I think we both know the answer. So there is no need to speak to me from your soapbox on this one. Every coach wants the same thing at this level of football.

On the bolded part: Where is the public outcry by you then if you hold your athletic department to such a high standard. I would think a man such as yourself who can always be found on the moral high ground would be picketing outside the athletic department offices at UND right now.

[Goon]

It would be easier to have conversation with you Darell if you didn't play dumb all the time.

You are making my point for me. It would have been easy for Coach Bohl to suspend the players for those games without it hurting NDSU's chances of winning significantly. Which is why I had no problem with him letting the justice system wheels turn first.

Coach Bohl made it clear from the beginning he was going to see what the punishment from our legal system would be. If he thinks that the punishment handed out by the judge is sufficient then I believe it is at his discretion.

It isn't his job to punish his players above and beyond what our legal system has. It is his job to field a competitive football team without breaking any rules.

Again, I really hope that DU and the conservation groups that were affected by these clowns ignorance sues the NDSU football players that were found guilty in this voter registration fraud.

[Bison06]

Again, I really hope that DU and the conservation groups that were affected by these clowns ignorance sues the NDSU football players that were found guilty in this voter registration fraud.

It doesn't surprise me one bit that you hope that. It isn't enough for them to be punished in court, now you hope that they have their financial lives ruined before they begin. Thanks for your concern.

[82SiouxGuy]

It doesn't surprise me one bit that you hope that. It isn't enough for them to be punished in court, now you hope that they have their financial lives ruined before they begin. Thanks for your concern.

I thought you said that the crime must not be serious because they didn't get much of a penalty from the courts. Being sued for doing something illegal is another potential result of their actions. They cost people and companies hundreds of thousands of dollars. Their actions were at least partially responsible for those losses. When you do that in the real world it can often come back to cost you money. I don't know if they would be found liable or not, but that is another potential outcome from this episode. But since they are NDSU football players, you don't believe that the real world should apply to them.

[Bison06]

I thought you said that the crime must not be serious because they didn't get much of a penalty from the courts. Being sued for doing something illegal is another potential result of their actions. They cost people and companies hundreds of thousands of dollars. Their actions were at least partially responsible for those losses. When you do that in the real world it can often come back to cost you money. I don't know if they would be found liable or not, but that is another potential outcome from this episode. But since they are NDSU football players, you don't believe that the real world should apply to them.

Quote my post where I said the law shouldn't apply to them.

It is one thing for someone to say if they are liable than they should be held responsible. I agree with that completely. But for him to say that he flat out wants them to be sued for dollar amounts that are likely more than all of their net worths combined, I find that to be too much and I take issue with that sentiment.

[Goon]

But for him to say that he flat out wants them to be sued for dollar amounts that are likely more than all of their net worths combined, I find that to be too much and I take issue with that sentiment.

What part of they screwed up a ballot measure with their greed do you not understand? I think this should be a felony and there have been a lot of people nation wide charged with crimes in matters like this. They're in the big boy world now - people get sued all the time for the moronic behavior like this. What part of a conservation organization was going to spend 100,000.00's of dollars to promote a ballot measure, do you not understand? Must be that NDSU education and classes in reasoning... This is serious business... Yeah this a more serious deal than the NDSU Athletic department leads on. I might have to drop the conservations groups an email and see what's up.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Goon

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, nobody has ever said anything in a press conference to appease the masses. I take it you didn't watch the presidential debate last night.

College athletics is more than just about winning, but coaches are hired to win football games. If they are also a great guy who kicks out amazing people who go on to great things, that is just a bonus. I do have that expectation of NDSU, all I'm saying is it is required. I hold them to a higher standard than their job description might.

He may not say it in public, but be honest with yourself. Would Mussman take a few guys with minor offseason trouble and a national championship over a non-playoff year where nobody on the team was even picked up for J-Walking? Seriously think about it. I think we both know the answer. So there is no need to speak to me from your soapbox on this one. Every coach wants the same thing at this level of football.

On the bolded part: Where is the public outcry by you then if you hold your athletic department to such a high standard. I would think a man such as yourself who can always be found on the moral high ground would be picketing outside the athletic department offices at UND right now.

Bohl made a statement in a public forum. He should be responsible for living up to it or should be called on it. No, I didn't bother watching the debate last night. I do hope that both candidates are called on any statements they made that are not accurate. But because political candidates make questionable statements doesn't give others like football coaches free reign to do the same. But it is nice to have it confirmed that Bohl is not always telling the whole truth and has a specific agenda.

I never said that Bohl should get rid of anyone. I said that he should have done more to teach lessons to young people on their way to becoming adults, rather than set the example that winning is the only thing. He has not done his complete job, he has concentrated too much on the on-field competition side and not enough on the student development side. These are college students, and someone will make a mistake. But they don't learn not to make those mistakes if they are taught that winning football games overcomes all mistakes. Sorry if you can't comprehend that part. And I'm sorry if my standards are higher than yours, you just keep going with the old Al Davis theory of life, "Just win, baby".

I don't know why I would be out picketing. I have made my point. I have a feeling that both the coach and the AD probably wonder if they could have done something differently also. I also have a feeling that part of the reaction to the party incident was a result of that. They took several steps after the party incident that they normally would not take, therefore, those were probably a reaction to the players not learning from before the party. So the coach and the AD have already made a correction and don't need me picketing.

[Bison06]

What part of they screwed up a ballot measure with their greed do you not understand? I think this should be a felony and there have been a lot of people nation wide charged with crimes in matters like this. They're in the big boy world now - people get sued all the time for the moronic behavior like this. What part of a conservation organization was going to spend 100,000.00's of dollars to promote a ballot measure, do you not understand? Must be that NDSU education and classes in reasoning... This is serious business... Yeah this a more serious deal than the NDSU Athletic department leads on. I might have to drop the conservations groups an email and see what's up.

You think it should be a felony? Great, call your representative. For now it isn't so if it's ok with you I'll just defer to the expertise of the judge who sentenced them. Glad our justice system doesn't revolve around what Goon thinks the punishments should be.

If they are found liable, I agree, they should be responsible for whatever dollar amount a judge finds them to be. But to want that to happen and ruin their lives? That's a bit much.

Haha, so now not only do you want them to be held liable, you are planning to actively seek out these people to push your own selfish agenda. Wow, you're cold dude.

[Goon]

You think it should be a felony? Great, call your representative. For now it isn't so if it's ok with you I'll just defer to the expertise of the judge who sentenced them. Glad our justice system doesn't revolve around what Goon thinks the punishments should be.

If they are found liable, I agree, they should be responsible for whatever dollar amount a judge finds them to be. But to want that to happen and ruin their lives? That's a bit much.

Haha, so now not only do you want them to be held liable, you are planning to actively seek out these people to push your own selfish agenda. Wow, you're cold dude.

Are you related to DaveK? I feel like I am arguing with his long lost brother... You really don't grasp the concept - there was a group of people that had invested 100.000.00 in a cause, said moron football players tried to defraud the state of North Dakota they need to pay...