so is this the start

[sf340flier]

The existing structure of the sbhe was put in place because of an our of control governor. At the time they saw it as a solution to protect the university from politics. What we've learned since is that the solution isn't to make higher ed isolated from the will of the people. The solution is to not elect crazy governors.

We made a huge mistake in 1930 and we should fix it now. We are a state with just 670000 people and a university system that costs well over $1 billion. It makes no sense.

You may be right, and I may be ignorant, but can you source your $1 billion price tag?

[sf340flier]

I'm not necessarily married to merging the two bodies, though I think it would be a good idea. I'd settle for simply allowing the Governor to fire SBHE memebers when he seems it necessary.

That's why we elect these people. To make decisionsike that. And I say that as someone who is less than enamored with Dalrymple.

This could be a much better solution than disbanding the whole structure...get rid of the bad apples, not the orchard.

[RobPort]

You may be right, and I may be ignorant, but can you source your $1 billion price tag?

Absolutely. As Rep. Mark Dosch (who sits on the Education and Environment Appropriations Committee) wrote in the Bismarck Tribune earlier this week:

The bottom line is that the Legislature has increased funding of higher ed more than $225 million (60 percent) in just the last three bienniums. In addition, the Legislature added more than $300 million in capital projects. Yet higher education officials claim they have been underfunded. The fact is, the budget for higher ed now exceeds $1.2 billion a biennium.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/north-dakota-higher-ed-doesnt-have-a-revenue-problem-it-has-a-spending-problem/

This is total higher education appropriations. It gets a little confusing, because often when they talk about the higher education budget it's just the university system budget which doesn't always include university-specific appropriations.

[sf340flier]

Absolutely. As Rep. Mark Dosch (who sits on the Education and Environment Appropriations Committee) wrote in the Bismarck Tribune earlier this week:

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/north-dakota-higher-ed-doesnt-have-a-revenue-problem-it-has-a-spending-problem/

This is total higher education appropriations. It gets a little confusing, because often when they talk about the higher education budget it's just the university system budget which doesn't always include university-specific appropriations.

Hmmm...You may be right, but I'm going to have to look at this more closely. No offense, but the blog is written by you, and the Representative was responding to someone or something. Politicians like to use numbers to support their positions.

I guess when the Governor signs the budget, there should be a public copy of that...should be able to take a better look.

[RobPort]

Hmmm...You may be right, but I'm going to have to look at this more closely. No offense, but the blog is written by you, and the Representative was responding to someone or something. Politicians like to use numbers to support their positions.

I guess when the Governor signs the budget, there should be a public copy of that...should be able to take a better look.

It's a well known fact, not surprising at all to people who actually follow the budges and higher ed issues.

Which is a real problem with a lot of this debate in the public. The state's media doesn't dig into anything, instead relying on the higher ed bureaucrats to tell us how it is. And the picture they paint is rosy, outside of needing more money to build their empires.

But by all means, please do look into it. I don't think you'll like what you see if you look honestly.

[The Whistler]

It's a well known fact, not surprising at all to people who actually follow the budges and higher ed issues.

Which is a real problem with a lot of this debate in the public. The state's media doesn't dig into anything, instead relying on the higher ed bureaucrats to tell us how it is. And the picture they paint is rosy, outside of needing more money to build their empires.

But by all means, please do look into it. I don't think you'll like what you see if you look honestly.

Unfortunately the Board of Higher Education and too often the legislators get all of their information from the administration who are building their empires.

[Fetch]

Well our Admin. seems to think they are the end all authority & how they (Admin.) have used them & both have manipulated us is not right

This issue (name) is enough to make me HATE them & want their wings clipped

But also the President Mansions issues made me think they mismanage funds & need oversight

& most definitely the Supt. of Public Instruction FARSE needs changing

Plus they lied to & deceived Ralph Engelstad after his death

& they are a bunch of spineless wimpy losers (unlike the real people of ND)

want more

[RobPort]

Hmmm...You may be right, but I'm going to have to look at this more closely. No offense, but the blog is written by you, and the Representative was responding to someone or something. Politicians like to use numbers to support their positions.

I guess when the Governor signs the budget, there should be a public copy of that...should be able to take a better look.

Here's a copy of Governor Dalrymple's 2011 - 2013 budget recommendations:

http://www.nd.gov/fiscal/docs/budget/executivebudgetsummary2011-13.pdf

You can find funding from the previous biennium, combined with the Governor's recommendations (with the legislature is acting on now) for the various aspects of higher ed in the state addressed there. That's where the $1.2 billion figure is from, and it's entirely accurate.

[Fetch]

I also think these overly educated elite think the people are dumb & we should just trust their superior intellect

All we hear is education is the answer to problems .......well let me tell you this - we are educated & now think your the problem & we want to solve it

Social media like this is proof people all over the world are fed up & will ban together to right wrongs

[PhillySioux]

I have to chuckle at your inane attempts to turn this into something about me. I'm a political commentator, and our universities are a) mediocre and b) sucking up far more tax dollars than they're worth.

We have a national problem with higher education. The cost is inflated even as the degrees are devalued. We're heading to a day of reckoning. Our out of control local higher ed bureaucrats are simply accelerating it here.

Its only about you when you make assertions that would to me, require first hand experience. Now, have you had experiences with the Universities that would lend any credence to the notion that they are mediocre, ie have you attended any of them and do you have a degree? Also, how would you measure the worth of the the Universities that suck up too much money? Obviously, by stating they suck up too more money than they are worth, you have placed some sort of value on them. How did you come to your conclusions.

[RobPort]

Its only about you when you make assertions that would to me, require first hand experience. Now, have you had experiences with the Universities that would lend any credence to the notion that they are mediocre, ie have you attended any of them and do you have a degree? Also, how would you measure the worth of the the Universities that suck up too much money?

Ha, so things like graduation rates don't matter? How about this: Forbes ranked both UND and NDSU, these supposed world-class universities, below 500 nationally.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/university-of-north-dakota-ranked-as-579th-best-school-in-the-country/

But we never hear about these things, do we? We always hear about new buildings being built and record-breaking attendance.

By the way, my personal observations don't matter (and neither do yours) because they are mere anecdotes and not at all useful in a sound analysis based on facts.

[PhillySioux]

Ha, so things like graduation rates don't matter? How about this: Forbes ranked both UND and NDSU, these supposed world-class universities, below 500 nationally.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/university-of-north-dakota-ranked-as-579th-best-school-in-the-country/

But we never hear about these things, do we? We always hear about new buildings being built and record-breaking attendance.

By the way, my personal observations don't matter (and neither do yours) because they are mere anecdotes and not at all useful in a sound analysis based on facts.

I thought you were a political commentator. Why bother if you believe the above is true?

[RobPort]

I thought you were a political commentator. Why bother if you believe the above is true?

You asked for a measurement, not an opinion.

[sf340flier]

Here's a copy of Governor Dalrymple's 2011 - 2013 budget recommendations:

http://www.nd.gov/fiscal/docs/budget/executivebudgetsummary2011-13.pdf

You can find funding from the previous biennium, combined with the Governor's recommendations (with the legislature is acting on now) for the various aspects of higher ed in the state addressed there. That's where the $1.2 billion figure is from, and it's entirely accurate.

Well, just a quick look at the budget, I see on page 42 the following: "The executive recommendation includes a $656.8 million state-funded higher education system budget for the 2011-13 biennium." If we really spent $1.2 billion last year on Higher Education, is the Governor proposing a $600 million cut?

On a side note, I see that the DPI (K-12) recommendation is for $919 million (page 41).

I also see on Page 40 that Higher Education constitutes 19.7% of the overall budget, in third place to Health and Human Services and Elementary and Secondary Education (29.3% and 28.7%, respectively).

I don't see the $1.2 billion that you and the good Representative speak of, but I am not an accountant and could be missing something.

[SooToo]

HUH? What?

It was the Board of Higher Education that gave Whiskey Joe Chapman cover for all of his misdeeds. It was the board of higher education that overruled the chancellor.

Now one could say that the Governor influenced the BOHE because he appointed who he wanted on there. But after the governor has no influence on their decisions.

Yep, they backed Chapman over Potts -- right after the governor, as documented in the attorney general's subsequent investigation, informed his appointees that he wanted Chapman retained because he was doing "a good job." Of course it didn't help that the board had some members (read John Paulsen) who saw themselves as active advocates for a particular institution.

Chapman was an excellent politician. He carefully cultivated -- and frequently exploited -- his connections with the governor, who sat beside him in the president's box at nearly every NDSU football game.

[sf340flier]

Ha, so things like graduation rates don't matter? How about this: Forbes ranked both UND and NDSU, these supposed world-class universities, below 500 nationally.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/university-of-north-dakota-ranked-as-579th-best-school-in-the-country/

But we never hear about these things, do we? We always hear about new buildings being built and record-breaking attendance.

By the way, my personal observations don't matter (and neither do yours) because they are mere anecdotes and not at all useful in a sound analysis based on facts.

Look, I know you really like your own blog, but maybe you should use something else to source your arguments. And by the way? Where does US News and World Reports rank our colleges? They have been at it much, much longer than Forbes.

[RobPort]

Well, just a quick look at the budget, I see on page 42 the following: "The executive recommendation includes a $656.8 million state-funded higher education system budget for the 2011-13 biennium." If we really spent $1.2 billion last year on Higher Education, is the Governor proposing a $600 million cut?

On a side note, I see that the DPI (K-12) recommendation is for $919 million (page 41).

I also see on Page 40 that Higher Education constitutes 19.7% of the overall budget, in third place to Health and Human Services and Elementary and Secondary Education (29.3% and 28.7%, respectively).

I don't see the $1.2 billion that you and the good Representative speak of, but I am not an accountant and could be missing something.

You are. Here's a summary from the University System itself showing their total 2010 - 2011 operating budget as $1.133 billion.

http://www.ndus.edu/uploads/reports/32/8-2010-summary-of-2010-11-annual-budgets.pdf

Dosch's figure was based on what he is projecting to come out of this legislative session. Despite rhetoric to the contrary from the state's media and the university officials, this legislature will be increasing the budget.

Now, to be fair, some of this funding is from non-taxpayer sources. But also note that the total doesn't include hundreds of millions in capital projects that are coming out of the taxpayer's pocket.

As for K - 12, you'd expect that to be bigger. Educating what amounts to every single kid in the state vs. college enrollment means a bigger budget. As for health and human services, we have a very elderly population in ND and most of that is Medicaid and other federal programs administered by the state.

If you want to go down another dark alley, consider that roughly 41% of our state's budget is federal money. How do you think that's going to shake out as our bankrupt federal government is forced to make cuts?

[RobPort]

Look, I know you really like your own blog, but maybe you should use something else to source your arguments. And by the way? Where does US News and World Reports rank our colleges? They have been at it much, much longer than Forbes.

Well, I guess I assume that you actually read the links because all of my sources are linked in the posts. I link my posts because I write about this stuff every single day, and it's ready reference for me.

Maybe I'm giving you too much credit for wanting to inform yourself on this subject.

[PhillySioux]

You are. Here's a summary from the University System itself showing their total 2010 - 2011 operating budget as $1.133 billion.

http://www.ndus.edu/uploads/reports/32/8-2010-summary-of-2010-11-annual-budgets.pdf

Dosch's figure was based on what he is projecting to come out of this legislative session. Despite rhetoric to the contrary from the state's media and the university officials, this legislature will be increasing the budget.

Now, to be fair, some of this funding is from non-taxpayer sources. But also note that the total doesn't include hundreds of millions in capital projects that are coming out of the taxpayer's pocket.

As for K - 12, you'd expect that to be bigger. Educating what amounts to every single kid in the state vs. college enrollment means a bigger budget. As for health and human services, we have a very elderly population in ND and most of that is Medicaid and other federal programs administered by the state.

If you want to go down another dark alley, consider that roughly 41% of our state's budget is federal money. How do you think that's going to shake out as our bankrupt federal government is forced to make cuts?

There we can agree.

[RobPort]

There we can agree.

Well, to be fair, how are going to be able to afford this exhorbitant higher ed spending after oil revenues peak and/or production falters? What if the EPA puts a moratorium on fracking?

We're going to regret spending in higher ed willy nilly.

[RobPort]

On a side note, I see that the DPI (K-12) recommendation is for $919 million (page 41).

Let's talk about K - 12 spending for a moment. Ask yourself why we've seen a 33% increase in spending there despite a 15% decline in public school enrollment.

Another sacred cow nobody wants to slaughter.

[sf340flier]

Now, to be fair, some of this funding is from non-taxpayer sources. But also note that the total doesn't include hundreds of millions in capital projects that are coming out of the taxpayer's pocket.

You mean, like over 70% funded by non-taxpayer sources?

I don't have a blog that I can link to every other post plus my signature line, but on page 2 of the link you provide: "Approximately 29 percent of operations are supported by the state general fund. The remainder of the operations of the University System are self-supporting through tuition and fees, room and board charges paid by students, and private and federal research grant and contract collections."

Some may have been viewing your major argument as the $1.2 billion was out of the tax-payers pocket. I'm sure you weren't trying to do that, right?

[sf340flier]

If you want to go down another dark alley, consider that roughly 41% of our state's budget is federal money. How do you think that's going to shake out as our bankrupt federal government is forced to make cuts?

100% completely agree with you here!

[RobPort]

You mean, like over 70% funded by non-taxpayer sources?

I don't have a blog that I can link to every other post plus my signature line, but on page 2 of the link you provide: "Approximately 29 percent of operations are supported by the state general fund. The remainder of the operations of the University System are self-supporting through tuition and fees, room and board charges paid by students, and private and federal research grant and contract collections."

Some may have been viewing your major argument as the $1.2 billion was out of the tax-payers pocket. I'm sure you weren't trying to do that, right?

Ha, so the taxpayers who pay the tuition and fees to go to the universities they own don't matter?

And are we not federal taxpayers too?

No need to get huffy with me. It's pretty clear you don't really understand the issue at hand. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and all that.

[RobPort]

100% completely agree with you here!

So it's ok to be against fiscal irresponsibility at the federal level, as long as we're not slaughtering the higher education sacred cow here in North Dakota?

C'mon. Let's have some common sense.