Herald Editorial - UND Football Ticket Prices

[The Sicatoka]

No, no, no.

'tony' and I are sitting back and singing in two-part harmony.

So let's leave it alone

'cause we can't see eye to eye.

There ain't no good guy,

there ain't no bad guy,

there's only you and me

and we just disagree.

Sincere apologies to Dave Mason.

[The Sicatoka]

Contrary to the beliefs in some quarters, Roger Thomas appears to have his eyes wide open to these matters.

If the aid limits were cut, what would the likely outcome be for those institutions that currently offer 36 grants?

Thomas said that North Dakota likely would reallocate the money as well, possibly using it for scholarships for the school's nascent Division I women's ice hockey program.

To that, however, Thomas added a note that confirms the importance of the issue.

"We're building a women's ice hockey program at the Division I level, and we're building scholarships there, so we might reallocate the funds there," he said. "But it also might tip the balance because we're surrounded by the schools that are looking at Division I-AA football."

<--- Roger Thomas? NOT.

[tony]

I can't argue with anything Roger says in that. Not sure why you picked that particular quote. It sounds like he'd embrace cuts in DII scholarships.

Of course, later on he probably says the exact opposite.

[kupe33]

I just wish that all it cost me was the 27.50 or whatever it is. So far this season I've spent over 5 grand to watch UND play. In fact, my wife and two boys are at the Anchorage airport right now waiting to get on a plane so they can see their son/brother play on Saturday. This trip will cost $2500.00 when it is all said and done. So you all smile on Saturday when you come home fifty dollars lighter because even though I will be watchin the game on the internet, It is worth every penny Ive spent to let my boys share the excitement of watching #73 carry the Nickel around the Alerus Sat. Afternoon. Go Sioux!!!!! See you on Nov 1 !!!

[Tuk]

Would ESPN even know where ND is if UND didn't have its hockey program? 

I recall back in 99/2000?? when I attended UND (before moving to Fargo and attending NDSU) and they played BC in the NCAA D1 hockey championship during which the commentator frequently screwed up where UND was from and in fact once mistook the school for USD. Sure was great to be so noticed that year (a sarcastic comment if you don't follow my intention).

Personally, I think we should drop the whole controversy surrounding the DIAA vs DII and move on.

Its obvious UND doesn't want to move upward in their athletics and is content to hold on to their DI hockey program (after all, UND is a hockey school just like Mankato) and remain in DII in everything else. Thats fine, I have no problem in that. It is their decision and although disappointing should be no concern of NDSU.

NDSU on the other hand wants to expand their programs and attempt DI level status in athletics. Again, its NDSU's decision and should be of no concern to UND. NDSU feels adventurous, while UND maintains their conservative status. Thats fine. I as a NDSU fan feel excited for the transition and will contribute to the change as much as I can.

NDSU may fail (I personally don't think so but it could happen) but then again UND may wish they made the change by noticing the growth of NDSU and the influence athletics have had upon that growth. In the end, its a matter of free will and personal decisions.

What I am saying is this:

NDSU and UND have a mutual interest in getting into the others business. The poo floats both ways on I-29 and we hate the other for it. It has been that way for 100+ years and it will continue until the bond of rivalry is broken, and probably still won't quit.

So what can we do? Here is a thought: Lets not care! UND fans: Who cares if NDSU goes DIAA and is #7 nationally in football?! NDSU fans: Who cares if UND is #4 in college hockey and wants to stay in DII football?! I personally think this bickering is meaningless. I tell my UND friends they shouldn't concern themselves with the move of NDSU, and I won't concern myself with their lack of judgement in supporting a collegiate athletic program that doesn't want to progress to better things (and their choice to live in a depressing town 75 miles north of Fargo). When it comes to that point in the future where one or the other realizes their mistake , thats will be reward enough to the other.

Its too bad the rivalry will quit because UND doesn't want to play, but I understand it if they think it is not in their best interest. The other powerhouses of the NCC (Mankato, USD, Augustana) will have to step up to fill the Alerus full of fans. Maybe the NSIC can help out too with the playoff system to help UND through the jungle of criteria to make it past the regular season.

In the end tho, both of these schools have North Dakota in their name and as such are no Nebraska or Boston College when it comes to college athletics and name recognition. Don't fool yourselves.

In conclusion----UND: good luck in the future of DII and puck shooting. You still show me aspects of everything I hate in the world and always will be that way, but hey.....WHO CARES!!

[BisonMav]

DaveK Posted: Oct 17 2003, 02:40 AM 

If they were as adventurous as you suggest and really wanted to expand their athletic department they wouldn't have blown their chance at landing a D-1 hockey program. They talked about it for the longest time but the opportunity passed them by because they couldn't "sh*t or get off the pot". The move to D-1AA is a lame attempt to compensate for their blundering attempt at D-1 hockey. 

Although I like hockey, I do get my fill in the Twin Cities. I wasn't really excited when hockey was pursued by NDSU, but the move to Division I is something I support 100%.

I did ask the question on the I-AA message board about ticket prices. Some schools do have a scaled ticket price. The $27.50 is on the high end, but not the highest though. Here is the link with feedback.

I-AA Ticket Prices

[The Sicatoka]

tony: What do you interpret "But it also might tip the balance ..." to mean in the context that Roger Thomas stated it?

[The Sicatoka]

Personally, I can't wait to hear the hypocritical justifications coming from these same fans when the NDSU administration starts variable ticketing pricing. Fortunately, given the NDSU's need for increased revenue during the transition, I suspect I won't have to wait long.

If some Bison fans are really so offended by athletics being run with a business mentality (and are not just shortsightedly picking on this because of an anti-anything UND reflex), it's going to be a hilarious 5 years.

I believe NDSU should have raised ticket prices before starting the transition. That way the "raised prices" issues would have subsided before any issues associated with the move and transition came up. It would have avoided "compounding" of the two issues. It also would have helped them to build a balance for possible coming lean years as some programs may struggle.

Now, as jimdahl points to, NDSU will have to raise prices during the transition which may make the fraction of fans that disagree with the move even more unhappy (compounding).

But hey, I don't run NDSU. Let them do what they will.

Meanwhile, UND is testing the waters, dare I say doing a market assessment, of what fans will pay to see various UND events. Plus they are setting precidents for prices. It allows UND, over the coming five to ten years, to say "but we haven't raised our prices" during that timeframe.

[UND Fan]

BisonMav - You indicate that you fully support SU's move to DI. I respect your thoughts and really applaud SU's "balls" in going after this. I also think that the Bison will become a Top 15 1-AA football team within a short period of time.

But, other than Wrestling where you will be respectable, don't you think all of the other sports will suffer greatly? You have a great program in many sports - track, softball, volleyball, women's BB, etc. I just don't know how you (or SDSU or UND) can compete in all these sports.

For example, you have an outstanding M & W track program - consistently one of the top teams in DII. However, if I remember correctly, in most years, not one of your athletes or relay teams would have qualified for the DI national meet.

Of course, BB is the other most popular and profit producing sport. I don't know if you will be able to recruit a better quality female athlete to improve your program to a higher level and the men's program may have a bigger challenge as they currently bring in many transfers who would not qualify for DI.

You will likely find a conference but will it be compelling enough to draw the interest of fans (other than FB). This may also be a similar challenge when it comes to recruiting.

Lastly, the cost of additional scholarships probably will be handled without too much difficulty, but transporting your track, softball, volleyball, golf teams, etc. the distances necessary to compete with other DI teams will be significant.

Your thoughts?

[tony]

tony: What do you interpret "But it also might tip the balance ..." to mean in the context that Roger Thomas stated it?

HAHAHAHA! It means NOTHING. It means that if RT answers a question, he always gives at least two contradictory non-answers. This is nice for you because you can interpret what he says in any way that suits your purposes.

You think UND athletics is a business? OK, let's say you ran a business. Your business landscape is almost certainly going to change. Your employees in one division are asking you what you are going to do when outside forces intervene and force you to cut your benefits for your production workers. As a leader, you stand before them and say, " Hey, it's fine. We'll probably just transfer the savings into this other department. However, there is a slightly smaller possibility that we will do something about it."

[BisonMav]

BisonMav - You indicate that you fully support SU's move to DI.  I respect your thoughts and really applaud SU's "balls" in going after this.  I also think that the Bison will become a Top 15 1-AA football team within a short period of time.

But, other than Wrestling where you will be respectable, don't you think all of the other sports will suffer greatly?  You have a great program in many sports - track, softball, volleyball, women's BB, etc.    I just don't know how you (or SDSU or UND) can compete in all these sports. 

For example, you have an outstanding M & W track program - consistently one of the top teams in DII.  However, if I remember correctly, in most years, not one of your athletes or relay teams would have qualified for the DI national meet. 

Of course, BB is the other most popular and profit producing sport.  I don't know if you will be able to recruit a better quality female athlete to improve your program to a higher level and the men's program may have a bigger challenge as they currently bring in many transfers who would not qualify for DI.

You will likely find a conference but will it be compelling enough to draw the interest of fans (other than FB).  This may also be a similar challenge when it comes to recruiting.

Lastly, the cost of additional scholarships probably will be handled without too much difficulty, but transporting your track, softball, volleyball, golf teams, etc. the distances necessary to compete with other DI teams will be significant.   

Your thoughts?

We may not see the full impact on the non-football sports for 10-20 years. The first few years will be challenging. But in 20 years the Bison could make a Gonzaga type run in the NCAA's. That would be big. The women's team will probably be the first to make a run like that, maybe even in Amy Ruley's tenure. I think volleyball and softball we be fine also.

The first step though is to become Division I eligible in each sport. That will take a few years. Next, getting into a conference will allow planning for travel for the minor sports such as track and golf. NDSU won't be a Big 10, Big 12 type of school, but maybe a Northern Iowa, or Montana type of school which is where the Bison belong. The Bison do not belong with the Minnesota State-Moorhead's and Crookston's.

The coaches that I have talked with, have said it is easier to recruit with the Division I label. The Twin Cities has many Division I athletes, and some like the chance to play Division I and still be close to home. The Division I label is a big deal to possible recruits. The recruiting area will also grow, as they did this year.

As far as NDSU raising ticket prices. I think they should wait until the dome starts filling up for most games to make a dramatic change. A buck or two would be fine for now. Also you have to pay fees to the Teammakers to sit in the better seats. The Teammakers will be a hugh resource for money generated for athletics. And then there are the DI money games with Big 10 type teams. Those can happen in 3-4 years. You need to average 60 scholarships over 3 years to qualify.

[UND92,96]

We may not see the full impact on the non-football sports for 10-20 years.  The first few years will be challenging.  But in 20 years the Bison could make a Gonzaga type run in the NCAA's.  That would be big. 

While anything is possible, the NDSU mens basketball program has generally been very average in dII, so I would be surprised if they have much success in dI--even at a conference level in a relatively low-level basketball conference like the Big Sky or Mid-Continent. Our geographical location makes it far more difficult to have Gonzaga or even Valpo-type success in North Dakota than if we were in Washington, Indiana, et al. And even if a conference is found in the near future, the issue of scheduling non-conference home games is probably always going to be a huge challenge.

The Bison do not belong with the Minnesota State-Moorhead's and Crookston's. 

I have no problem with this statement if we are talking about football. But in terms of basketball, that statement comes across as more arrogant than based upon lack of competitiveness of NSIC schools. NDSU isn't typically any better than most NSIC schools in basketball. That's not necessarily a dig at the Bison, because in reality there doesn't seem to be the large chasm between the have's and have not's in hoops as there is in football. In fact, all the talk about the impending doom of dII should probably be limited to football, because the caliber of basketball in dII and the overall competitiveness seems to be quite good. I don't believe there have been any serious talks about reducing scholarships in basketball, although admittedly I'm not sure of that.

[CoteauRinkRat]

Yeah, well my dad rides an Arctic Cat.

lol

[The Sicatoka]

You think UND athletics is a business? OK, let's say you ran a business. ....

Starting production (including not having the funds to cover start-up costs) on a new product line, that not all your consumers are sure they want, and some think they don't need, is a better business model?

[Tuk]

If they were as adventurous as you suggest and really wanted to expand their athletic department they wouldn't have blown their chance at landing a D-1 hockey program. They talked about it for the longest time but the opportunity passed them by because they couldn't "sh*t or get off the pot". The move to D-1AA is a lame attempt to compensate for their blundering attempt at D-1 hockey.

Well DaveK, you are entitled to your opinion on the why, but nevertheless NDSU is moving up and UND is not. Hockey is something that has interested NDSU and Fargo for some time, but I think the push for hockey isn't big here due to the fact that NDSU is a football school and rates everything else behind that. Most hockey fans I assume go to UND because of the hockey program. As for Fargo, a good minority of people here are UND alum or have some ties to UND, and don't want a hockey program at NDSU because of the impact that may have on recruiting for UND.

I like hockey but I will gladly watch the Gophers play on TV instead of pushing for hockey at NDSU. I like football much more, and will support that portion of our athletics feverishly.

You apparently think hockey is the ONLY sport that matters in the world and because NDSU didn't land that sport they are compensating for it like someone with an inadequacy issue. Thats fine, you can think that way. I personally don't view the world through such filtered ideals and realize every school has their love. UND=>hockey NDSU=>football SDSU=>basketball

Just because NDSU doesn't have hockey doesn't mean the athletic dept was thinking of ways to get back at UND and thought of this. Sorry my closed minded friend, this is just another move. Hockey didn't work out, so they moved on. Simple as that. No compensation, just hopeful thinking and wanting to grow in this world.

Again tho, why should you care? You go to UND and have hockey. Good luck, and hopefully we never meet (I don't like you already).

[BisonMav]

UND92,96 Posted: Oct 17 2003, 09:59 AM 

While anything is possible, the NDSU mens basketball program has generally been very average in dII, so I would be surprised if they have much success in dI--even at a conference level in a relatively low-level basketball conference like the Big Sky or Mid-Continent. Our geographical location makes it far more difficult to have Gonzaga or even Valpo-type success in North Dakota than if we were in Washington, Indiana, et al. And even if a conference is found in the near future, the issue of scheduling non-conference home games is probably always going to be a huge challenge.

It will be a challenge, but I am all for NDSU taking on the challenge.

I have no problem with this statement if we are talking about football. But in terms of basketball, that statement comes across as more arrogant than based upon lack of competitiveness of NSIC schools. NDSU isn't typically any better than most NSIC schools in basketball. That's not necessarily a dig at the Bison, because in reality there doesn't seem to be the large chasm between the have's and have not's in hoops as there is in football. In fact, all the talk about the impending doom of dII should probably be limited to football, because the caliber of basketball in dII and the overall competitiveness seems to be quite good. I don't believe there have been any serious talks about reducing scholarships in basketball, although admittedly I'm not sure of that.

The NSIC used to be NAIA. They can compete with NCC teams on an individual basis. Crookston can beat UND or NDSU on a given day, but can they survive the NCC season. Northern State could have made a run a few years ago. Maybe SW State when they were good. I don't think over a NCC season the NSIC teams would fare as well as current NCC members across all sports. It's more pride in the NCC than arrogance.

[UND92,96]

The NSIC used to be NAIA.  They can compete with NCC teams on an individual basis.  Crookston can beat UND or NDSU on a given day, but can they survive the NCC season.  Northern State could have made a run a few years ago.  Maybe SW State when they were good.  I don't think over a NCC season the NSIC teams would fare as well as current NCC members across all sports.  It's more pride in the NCC than arrogance.

I probably could have been clearer with my previous post. I certainly agree that the NCC is better top-to-bottom than the NSIC. My point is more that if a program is not dominant in its current division, how realistic is it that it will become at least competitive in a higher division? A big problem, as I see it, is that recruiting will be a huge challenge when you don't have even the possibility of an NCAA tournament appearance for a long, long time to use as a carrot to potential recruits. Plus, recruiting juco players will be more difficult as well because you no longer have that pool of talented players who weren't eligible for dI but were for dII. A comparably talented player to a Jerome Beasley or a Mark McGehee, for example, if eligible to play dI, is likely going to sign with a more established program that offers a chance to go to the Big Dance.

With those two handicaps, I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect that the caliber of player NDSU is able to recruit will be better than it has been. Without the jucos, it may even be worse. Combined with the fact that you will be presumably playing against better competition, it could very well lead to some really ugly won-loss records. I guess we'll see over the next decade or so. In the interests of fairness, I think the same would happen at UND if it was to go dI, and that's why I'm really not for it at this point. It's fine for football due the existence of I-AA, and obviously for hockey, but basketball? I don't see how it can work. Just my opinion.

[UND Fan]

Obviously, the perfect solution for NDSU, UND, SDSU and many others is a I-AA division for all sports but I don't think that is in the cards!!

If that happened, UND would hop on board in a New York Minute!

[redwing77]

DAVE-K

Blundering attempt at Hockey? I think the overwhelming vote against the new Hockey arena in Fargo is just a reinforcement of the fact that outside of the "Greater" (yeah right) grand forks area, nobody in North Dakota really gives a flying poo about hockey. I grew up in ND and didn't even know UND had D1 Hockey until I had some friends go to school there. The local papers were always full of NDSU and UND football and basketball, but never a reference to hockey. Perhaps that is why NDSU-UND football and basketball games are shown statewide while the only time sioux hockey can be seen on TV outside GF is when they round up enough canadians to make it on espn. Have fun watching your d2 football and d1 hockey. I'll admit REA is a great place to watch a game, but then again we all know it is just a matter of time before somebody accidentally spits or urinates in the Red River and the whole city of grand forks floods again, washing your university and beautiful arena clear into canada (where it probably belongs anyway) leaving only Pat Owens behind.

GO BISON!!!!

I expect trash talk, but bigotry?

Round up enough Canadians? Whatever. We belong in Canada? Oh, that's really smart. Why don't you go play with your farm implements. I'm FROM Fargo, pal. I was there through NDSU championships and droughts. I was there to watch them win and lose. I know how much of a football town Fargo is. My next door neighbor is a hockey fan and he roots for the Sioux. And it is well known that NDSU had an opportunity to get into hockey but they passed on it. It wasn't a blunder, like davek suggests, but it was simply a choice in priorities.

I may attend UND and I may trash talk NDSU, but I don't consider them anti American. You have to be a real dirty human being to call 13,000 people anti american because of where they attend school. I'm not Canadian. I never will be, but if people like you were in power, I certainly wouldn't be patriotic.

And by the way, according to the 13th Ave Scheels Sales manager, UND Hockey sells more apparrel there than NDSU apparrel. For an unknown DI program, our tshirts and jerseys must look cool or something.

And well, we've been on ESPN. How many times has your D I-AA Football team made it on ESPN?

[Tuk]

I love that old stereotype that "UND is a hockey school and NDSU is a football school". Back in the '80s when the Bison used to beat the Sioux every year in football, that was the excuse made by many Bison supporters for why they didn't have a hockey program. They suggested that UND's football program suffered because hockey was the #1 priority, and they didn't want NDSU's football program to end up like UND's. Well... here we are now in 2003. Hockey is still the #1 priority at UND and the Sioux have owned the Bison on the gridiron for the last decade. I guess that argument no longer holds water.

Sioux football : If you can't beat 'em, go run and hide in another division and then whine because they won't play you with a stacked deck.

Well, again I guess I am wrong for saying the truth. You OBVIOUSLY know everything about Fargo and where football stands with the citizens of Fargo. I guess all the parents and fans cheering for the West Fargo Packers are there just to exercise their vocal cords. I guess the whole notion of NDSU being a football school is a farce also, since YOU obviously know more than everyone on this board the impact of football upon Fargo and NDSU.

I hope your pig-headedness and lack of logical reasoning for my argument works well for you, DaveK. If you read more into my arguement, I stated that NDSU prioritizes football above all its other sports, as does UND with hockey. I didn't state that NDSU has dominated the last decade in football, nor did I state that UND has spent most of its resources upon hockey and as such is why they want to remain in DII. I am just stating that NDSU wants to improve its athletics to a DIAA level and UND wishes to remain at DII with DI hockey as its premier sport. Thats all. Nothing more or less. Again, what UND is doing is fine with me, albeit disappointing. I don't care either way. If they want to remain in DII, its their decision. I however support NDSU's move and think that only the future will tell if this is successful or not.

But remember DaveK, I don't care. UND's conservative stance is your field, and NDSU's move is my field. I know tho I am talking to a brick wall of reasoning and judgement and as such am wasting my time typing this out. I just hope others are understanding of my argument and agree that NDSU and UND should just keep out of each others business after the decisions are made.

But as Barney the dinosaur's evil twin Burt says:

"...and remember, I hate you."

[Tuk]

And well, we've been on ESPN.

[PCM]

This thread has officially gone stupid.

[Tuk]

DaveK, do you not understand what I was trying to say earlier? Is this too hard for you to comprehend? Is your blinding loyalty to hockey that great? I mean, are you for real or are you pulling my leg?

I will say this one more time and one time only:

NDSU does not care about hockey as much as you would wish it does. HOCKEY IS NOT THE ONLY SPORT IN THE WORLD! Get over that idea. Just because we didn't go to hockey as a sport doesn't mean we are heartbroken over it. To think that would be redicuous! Get over the idea of NDSU not having hockey. WE DON'T CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT HOCKEY! WE LIKE FOOTBALL AT NDSU, EVEN IF WE DON'T DO WELL AT IT SOME YEARS! Do you need a hammer to pound this idea into your skull?

Furthermore, congradulations on telling me the obvious. I realize my team hasn't been the major winner of this game the last 10 years. This is good for you and bad for me. NDSU had some bad times in the last years, but I am confident they will pull through in DIAA.

I am done tho. You just don't seem to get my argument. This is a stupid conversation and I for one am done with this thread due to its complete lack of logic. Again, DaveK, you show me aspects of UND which make me loathe some of those who go there (not to mean I hate ALL UND students and alum, just many I have met there). In my opinion, you are a prime example of why I left that school and attended NDSU.

Thank you DaveK for being the all-knowing moron on this board and I know you will make some stupid last word so in advance:

If there was such a thing for euthinasia for stupid people, you would definitely be dead by now. I HATE YOU!

This thread is DONE. This stupid argument is DONE.

[Tuk]

All right, I lied. I am posting another reply....

After todays dismal performance by the Bison, I think we may need a stacked deck to beat UND. That being said, I don't think the rivalry should be dropped right away. Next year I doubt we will be any better than any other DII team, and I truly believe UND can beat us if they play like they did today.

DaveK, I am glad to clear up our apparent misunderstanding of points. I don't believe that NDSU is running away from DII to DIAA so they can beat UND. I think it is a combination of things after last years crap season, and they wanted to move up with a new focus and with a fresh page. If UND fans really think UND is the reason NDSU is moving up then they are greatly mistaken. I think the growing confusion of DII football, the aged debate about DIAA move, and the dismail 2002 season was the reason why we moved up.

UND can think what they want, but NDSU is not running away. We are just starting new on another level, and hopefully we can unscrew ourselves.

DaveK, lets just agree to disagree.