reasons for prolonged slump?

[UND92,96]

I believe there are multiple reasons for UND men's basketball having been down for a number of years. Maybe the single biggest reason is a combination of the failure to retain high school recruits, along with a number of injuries which have hampered some of those who stayed. Here's a summary of the high school recruiting classes who came to UND for the 03-04 season through the 07-08 season. I'm excluding all players who I believe came in as walk-on's.

2003-04

Josh Doyle--probably would have been a solid player but for multiple knee injuries.

Mike Gutter--fairly talented, but he left after a year, then came back, and then quit again after jr. year.

2004-05

Daniel Harkins--similar story as Josh Doyle in terms of injuries robbing him of what could have been a nice career. At least he's finally healthy this year and playing well.

Dane Seckar-Anderson--left after a couple of years. Never played a lot.

2005-06

Travis Bledsoe--has been a nice player.

Andy Wills--one year and gone.

Jesse Blackwell--one year and gone.

Geoff Probst--one year and gone.

2006-07

Derek Benter--has played a fair amount last season and so far this year, but hasn't really distinguished himself yet.

Rion Rayfield--signed LOI, but was released after Glas/Herbst were let go. Has apparently been a fairly good player at dII Florida Southern.

2007-08

Pat Mitchell--looks like he'll be good.

Denny Dumas--one year and gone.

Griffan Callahan--one semester and gone.

In addition to the above, we've had a number of transfers not pan out/leave early/have injury problems, which certainly hasn't helped matters. I guess we can hold out hope that this year's red-shirts can reverse the trend of the past five years.

[dlsiouxfan]

I think MBB's struggle is almost directly attributable to Kupchella's idiotic stance regarding the Division I move. Failing to move up when NDSU did made recruiting nearly impossible for most of our sports teams. It's the biggest reason the football team had a down season and is also the reason the WBB team is struggling right now. If we wouldn't have moved it surely would have destroyed the entire athletic department except for hockey. Compound this with the outright theft of resources from our men's and women's basketball program to support women's hockey during Buning's time as AD and it's easy to see why this program is struggling. With that being said, I've heard good things about the redshirt class and I think given time Coach Jones can get the program turned around. Hopefully Faison and Kelly realize the potential of men's basketball for the university. Next to football, it is easily the second most visible sport at the collegiate level and success would give UND national exposure it could only dream about from men's hockey.

[Big10Sioux]

Men's basketball may have the most potential of all the sports for rapid growth on campus. I stress potential but 1 good season may get the ball rolling in the right direction. Hopefully, the talented group redshirting this year really turn out well.

[bincitysioux]

I believe there are multiple reasons for UND men's basketball having been down for a number of years. Maybe the single biggest reason is a combination of the failure to retain high school recruits, along with a number of injuries which have hampered some of those who stayed. Here's a summary of the high school recruiting classes who came to UND for the 03-04 season through the 07-08 season. I'm excluding all players who I believe came in as walk-on's.

2003-04

Josh Doyle--probably would have been a solid player but for multiple knee injuries.

Mike Gutter--fairly talented, but he left after a year, then came back, and then quit again after jr. year.

2004-05

Daniel Harkins--similar story as Josh Doyle in terms of injuries robbing him of what could have been a nice career. At least he's finally healthy this year and playing well.

Dane Seckar-Anderson--left after a couple of years. Never played a lot.

2005-06

Travis Bledsoe--has been a nice player.

Andy Wills--one year and gone.

Jesse Blackwell--one year and gone.

Geoff Probst--one year and gone.

2006-07

Derek Benter--has played a fair amount last season and so far this year, but hasn't really distinguished himself yet.

Rion Rayfield--signed LOI, but was released after Glas/Herbst were let go. Has apparently been a fairly good player at dII Florida Southern.

2007-08

Pat Mitchell--looks like he'll be good.

Denny Dumas--one year and gone.

Griffan Callahan--one semester and gone.

In addition to the above, we've had a number of transfers not pan out/leave early/have injury problems, which certainly hasn't helped matters. I guess we can hold out hope that this year's red-shirts can reverse the trend of the past five years.

[bincitysioux]

I believe there are multiple reasons for UND men's basketball having been down for a number of years. Maybe the single biggest reason is a combination of the failure to retain high school recruits, along with a number of injuries which have hampered some of those who stayed. Here's a summary of the high school recruiting classes who came to UND for the 03-04 season through the 07-08 season. I'm excluding all players who I believe came in as walk-on's.

2003-04

Josh Doyle--probably would have been a solid player but for multiple knee injuries.

Mike Gutter--fairly talented, but he left after a year, then came back, and then quit again after jr. year.

2004-05

Daniel Harkins--similar story as Josh Doyle in terms of injuries robbing him of what could have been a nice career. At least he's finally healthy this year and playing well.

Dane Seckar-Anderson--left after a couple of years. Never played a lot.

2005-06

Travis Bledsoe--has been a nice player.

Andy Wills--one year and gone.

Jesse Blackwell--one year and gone.

Geoff Probst--one year and gone.

2006-07

Derek Benter--has played a fair amount last season and so far this year, but hasn't really distinguished himself yet.

Rion Rayfield--signed LOI, but was released after Glas/Herbst were let go. Has apparently been a fairly good player at dII Florida Southern.

2007-08

Pat Mitchell--looks like he'll be good.

Denny Dumas--one year and gone.

Griffan Callahan--one semester and gone.

In addition to the above, we've had a number of transfers not pan out/leave early/have injury problems, which certainly hasn't helped matters. I guess we can hold out hope that this year's red-shirts can reverse the trend of the past five years.

Good analysis............so why is it happening?

Specifically, why is what started to happen under Glas, continuing to happen under Jones? Why did Rayfield, Dumas, and Callahan leave? I know Rayfield was recruited under the Glas regime, but still.

I have been a big Jones supporter since he came here, but it is getting extremely frustrating to see this team continue to struggle in year 3 of his tenure. By struggle, I mean lose to Southwest MN State (a decent team with size and some talent, but still a DII NSIC team), and barely eek out a win via a miracle shot against Valley City. His teams have been extremely streaky. Aside from a two week stretch heading into last years NCC tournament, there has been virtually no improvement in the play of this squad from Glas' last 4 years up until now.

And not being someone who follows recruiting religiously, this is an area that has sorely disappointed me the last 2 years. I have not been overly impressed with the recruits brought in during Jones' tenure except for Emanuel Little and Earvin Youmens, from Jones' first class. Obviously only time will tell about this years class who are all redshirting. Ignoring the need for any big man in the low post who can simply take up space and give quality minutes and be factor on the defensive end of the court has been a huge pet peeve for me.

It is frustrating to someone like me who fell in love with North Dakota athletics in the early 90's when the basketball team was arguably the hottest ticket in town. Crowds of 3-4,000 every night and deep post-season runs. Seems like an eternity ago.

[UND92,96]

Good analysis............so why is it happening?

Specifically, why is what started to happen under Glas, continuing to happen under Jones? Why did Rayfield, Dumas, and Callahan leave? I know Rayfield was recruited under the Glas regime, but still.

I don't know the answer. I guess the staff needs to do a better job of targeting kids who really want to be here. Even taking Rayfield out of the equation, who was not recruited by Jones, two of the first three Jones high school recruits lasting one season or less is not very good.

I have been a big Jones supporter since he came here, but it is getting extremely frustrating to see this team continue to struggle in year 3 of his tenure. By struggle, I mean lose to Southwest MN State (a decent team with size and some talent, but still a DII NSIC team), and barely eek out a win via a miracle shot against Valley City. His teams have been extremely streaky. Aside from a two week stretch heading into last years NCC tournament, there has been virtually no improvement in the play of this squad from Glas' last 4 years up until now.

Agreed. We need to be able to win, and usually in convincing fashion, against NAIA/dIII/less-than-fully-funded dII's.

And not being someone who follows recruiting religiously, this is an area that has sorely disappointed me the last 2 years. I have not been overly impressed with the recruits brought in during Jones' tenure except for Emanuel Little and Earvin Youmens, from Jones' first class. Obviously only time will tell about this years class who are all redshirting. Ignoring the need for any big man in the low post who can simply take up space and give quality minutes and be factor on the defensive end of the court has been a huge pet peeve for me.

The post situation is also a pet peeve for me. I get somewhat annoyed when the excuse of of Lehnertz's injury is brought up. Ben was a walk-on his first few years in the program. These should not be the types of players who are irreplaceable when they get hurt. Even Valley City had post players who could take up space and score an occasional basket. We are using 6'5" small forwards in the post. Were there no 6'7" jucos who could have provided a band-aid until this year's red-shirts may be ready in a year or two?

It is frustrating to someone like me who fell in love with North Dakota athletics in the early 90's when the basketball team was arguably the hottest ticket in town. Crowds of 3-4,000 every night and deep post-season runs. Seems like an eternity ago.

I remember those days well, and it definitely seems like a long time ago. I look forward to the day when I start going to men's games because I really want to, rather than out of a sense of obligation.

[the green team]

Being division 1, we now go to the bottom of the heap as far as juco's are concerned. Why? Because now in order to get a juco player-that player must have attained a certain amount of credits, where as with DII rules, you don't need as many credits if your are a juco transfer. Now, think of it this way---- your pool now shrinks-- some players who are like Little for example, may not qualify (thus they will go to a d2 school) and the ones that do, who are at all- skilled, will be sucked up first by the big time programs that need help at those postions...leaving what I would consider a fairly weak pool of remainders.

Unfortunately in my view- we are stuck.

[UND92,96]

Being division 1, we now go to the bottom of the heap as far as juco's are concerned. Why? Because now in order to get a juco player-that player must have attained a certain amount of credits, where as with DII rules, you don't need as many credits if your are a juco transfer. Now, think of it this way---- your pool now shrinks-- some players who are like Little for example, may not qualify (thus they will go to a d2 school) and the ones that do, who are at all- skilled, will be sucked up first by the big time programs that need help at those postions...leaving what I would consider a fairly weak pool of remainders.

Unfortunately in my view- we are stuck.

I definitely agree with you regarding the juco issue for the next several years. But I believe had a player signed prior to last season, he would have been grandfathered in and would have been eligible for this season. The opportunity to play dI competition for a year should have given UND a leg up on most any dII's recruiting the same kid. To the extent there was a failure in juco recruiting, it may have been in not getting a transfer prior to last season who could have given us an inside presence now.

[coach daddy]

Being division 1, we now go to the bottom of the heap as far as juco's are concerned. Why? Because now in order to get a juco player-that player must have attained a certain amount of credits, where as with DII rules, you don't need as many credits if your are a juco transfer. Now, think of it this way---- your pool now shrinks-- some players who are like Little for example, may not qualify (thus they will go to a d2 school) and the ones that do, who are at all- skilled, will be sucked up first by the big time programs that need help at those postions...leaving what I would consider a fairly weak pool of remainders.

Unfortunately in my view- we are stuck.

About the only real difference is that DI juco's have to graduate from their juco. DII schools don't require the degree.

Finding talented juco kids with degrees isn't that hard. Go watch NDSCS this year. They've got a couple who will get degrees and could definitely help us. In fact, they'd beat us if we played them.

[Canseco3333]

Why can't we get a big guy for our center? Seems like we get beat up underneath in our Defensive Zone and do not have the horse to feed inside on the Offensive End? Has anyone heard if we have a potential recruit for a 6'11 240 lb Center?

[the green team]

About the only real difference is that DI juco's have to graduate from their juco. DII schools don't require the degree.

Finding talented juco kids with degrees isn't that hard. Go watch NDSCS this year. They've got a couple who will get degrees and could definitely help us. In fact, they'd beat us if we played them.

I disagree, d1 type talented jucos are the ones being recruited by established programs (and they are choosing these programs) if they're not being recruited by others most likely they are not at the level of play needed at the d1 level, and secondly how do we know they will have degrees this year, if you talk to coaches, it happens quite frequently that players at the juco level are projected to get their degrees' (projected-being the operative word) and it comes to the end of the year and they don't.

Really, it's not much different that major college basketball many are projected to get their degrees, but the reality is not all of them do.

I'm sure they've got another talented team down there in Wahpeton again, they've done a great job with that program- I really like how you qualify your statement by saying "if we played them- they'd beat us." Well, thank you for that confident nugget of wisdom. If there is talented players there, I'm sure our staff is aware of it, but from what I understand signing a juco with the talent to compete is far more difficult for a transitioning d1 school than for others. The player(s) that can really be difference makers 9 times out of 10 will unfortunately head elsewhere.

Our reality-we have a large freshman class that is redshirting. This is a gutsy play by the staff, but I like it. Hopefully, we'll pick up a few more pieces for next year and if one happens to be a juco who has size then I'm all for it, but I don't expect it.

[star2city]

Our reality-we have a large freshman class that is redshirting. This is a gutsy play by the staff, but I like it. Hopefully, we'll pick up a few more pieces for next year and if one happens to be a juco who has size then I'm all for it, but I don't expect it.

When Jones installed the Princeton offense, it was an acknowledgment that UND's men's basketball will need to use teamwork, timing, 3-pt shooting and brains to have success against more individually talented teams. Recruiting a player like Beasley, for instance, was a fluke at the DII level, and would be even more difficult at DI until UND has proven itself as a winning program. For the Princeton offense to really succeed, the players in the program need to be immersed in the system their entire college career. JUCO's really aren't the answer for Princeton offense team. Air Force, which has major issues in attracting basketball talent, became successful because they bought into the Princeton system and were patient.

The redshirting class is the first one that really came to UND having bought into the Princeton offense. The success of that class is the true test of Jones' coaching and leadership. If Jones had brought in another JUCO or two so his record could have been better this year and next, he would have sacrificed longer-term potential. Implementing a system can be painful a first, but has better long-term potential.

A school in a very similar situation to UND is Denver. Eighteen months ago, DU hired the former Princeton and Air Force coach, Joe Scott, and currently have a team with no seniors and 8 freshman or redshirts. DU's had some horrid years before Scott and last year, so it will be interesting to see how DU progresses.

[coach daddy]

When Jones installed the Princeton offense, it was an acknowledgment that UND's men's basketball will need to use teamwork, timing, 3-pt shooting and brains to have success against more individually talented teams. Recruiting a player like Beasley, for instance, was a fluke at the DII level, and would be even more difficult at DI until UND has proven itself as a winning program. For the Princeton offense to really succeed, the players in the program need to be immersed in the system their entire college career. JUCO's really aren't the answer for Princeton offense team. Air Force, which has major issues in attracting basketball talent, became successful because they bought into the Princeton system and were patient.

The redshirting class is the first one that really came to UND having bought into the Princeton offense. The success of that class is the true test of Jones' coaching and leadership. If Jones had brought in another JUCO or two so his record could have been better this year and next, he would have sacrificed longer-term potential. Implementing a system can be painful a first, but has better long-term potential.

A school in a very similar situation to UND is Denver. Eighteen months ago, DU hired the former Princeton and Air Force coach, Joe Scott, and currently have a team with no seniors and 8 freshman or redshirts. DU's had some horrid years before Scott and last year, so it will be interesting to see how DU progresses.

Totally agree with this statement. As a college coach you either go "quick fix", with juco kids or you decide to develop a program and recruit H.S. seniors, redshirt them and bring them along in your program. You can win either way. Coach Huggins when he was at Cincinnati was always a juco guy. Coach Gillespie at Kentucky did the same when he was at UTEP. I have no opinion on how a coach chooses to try and win. Be consistent and true to yourself. If Coach Jones believes H.S. seniors is the route to go, that is his choice. I hope it works. If he chose to go the juco route every year, I'd support that too. Again, I want him to win. I want UND to win. I don't care how!! My comment was just to keep discussion going and give input to what I believe the rules are for juco's DI vs. DII. Not trying to condemn Coach Jones for how he wants to do it. If it sounded that way, I apologize.

[the green team]

I agree coachdaddy, we all want to see this program improve--I think that is what gets all our blood boiling sometimes. There are definitely different ways of building the program- let's hope this path is the right one- this school can and should have a strong men's and women's basketball program.

So did Jamestown cancel because they heard how great we were in the game against VCSU the other night? I was really surprised to see this happen -it's pretty rare that they cancel a college game. The weather isn't even bad yet, who's to even say there will even be a storm, how many times did the National Weather Service cry wolf last year. Even if their prediction is right, they seem to be predicting that the storm won't be here until later this evening- even if they got out of here by 5p after the game they could of made it back- plus they are a college program and if the weather got bad enough, couldn't they get rooms in GF.

[sultan]

After reading the articles in today's Herald about the attendance for basketball , my first reaction was that the article was just slightly premature. Even though the article could end up being exactly right and probably will be, I think you need more than just a couple of games to make an accurate comparison. They could of waited a couple of months and then gave a truer picture of what is happening before creating such a negative outlook.

[UND92,96]

After reading the articles in today's Herald about the attendance for basketball , my first reaction was that the article was just slightly premature. Even though the article could end up being exactly right and probably will be, I think you need more than just a couple of games to make an accurate comparison. They could of waited a couple of months and then gave a truer picture of what is happening before creating such a negative outlook.

I thought it was ridiculous to make attendance comparisons to past years based upon a combined five home games between the men and women, only one of which (women's game vs. Eastern Michigan) was a matchup that anybody but the hardest of the hardcore fans could possibly care much about. Everybody knew that with such poor home schedules, attendance wasn't going to be good this year. But let's at least wait until we see a few more games against peer opponents, such as USD, before we make any comparisons to past years. In all honesty, besides the January 24 doubleheader vs. USD and the women's game already played vs. Eastern Michigan, are there any games on the schedule that could reasonably be expected to generate any buzz whatsoever? Next year will be better, as some of the dI opponents played on the road this year will be coming to Grand Forks.

[ND Ball]

I thought it was ridiculous to make attendance comparisons to past years based upon a combined five home games between the men and women, only one of which (women's game vs. Eastern Michigan) was a matchup that anybody but the hardest of the hardcore fans could possibly care much about. Everybody knew that with such poor home schedules, attendance wasn't going to be good this year. But let's at least wait until we see a few more games against peer opponents, such as USD, before we make any comparisons to past years. In all honesty, besides the January 24 doubleheader vs. USD and the women's game already played vs. Eastern Michigan, are there any games on the schedule that could reasonably be expected to generate any buzz whatsoever? Next year will be better, as some of the dI opponents played on the road this year will be coming to Grand Forks.

Look who wrote the article and then you will probably understand - doesn't have a clue.