WCHA Hockey = Big Ten Football

[UND-1]

First off, I am not going to rip the hockey team or the coaching staff. This is strictly a "non-hockey" guy take on what is going on with the UND Hockey and the WCHA. I know nothing about hockey.

Hockey: The WCHA teams beat each other up all year and kept telling everyone how good they were. They should get 7 teams in the tournament, etc. Then when they get to the Frozen Four and have to play teams from the CCHA and Hockey East, they get blown off the ice. Honestly, everyone has to admit they looked extremely slow out there compared to BC. It was Men vs. Slow Men.

Football: The Big Ten beats each other up all season and Ohio State eventually comes out on top and they start claiming how good they are and the Big Ten is a tough conference week in and week out. So what happens when they get to the NC game the last two years vs. SEC teams: They get completely blown off the field by Florida and LSU. Too slow, too big at certain positions and basically get embarrassed by the faster, quicker teams from the SEC.

While I was watching the game tonight, this comparison just kept popping into my head. I may be completely wrong but I don't think so.

So what are those Big Ten teams doing to change their fates? They are recruiting speed, speed and more speed. They realized they are not going to be able to keep up. THis is exactly what the WCHA needs to realize, they need those faster players again. Where are the Hoogsteens, Panzers, Blakes? This team had nobody even close to the speed those players had.

[redwing77]

First off, I am not going to rip the hockey team or the coaching staff. This is strictly a "non-hockey" guy take on what is going on with the UND Hockey and the WCHA. I know nothing about hockey.

Hockey: The WCHA teams beat each other up all year and kept telling everyone how good they were. They should get 7 teams in the tournament, etc. Then when they get to the Frozen Four and have to play teams from the CCHA and Hockey East, they get blown off the ice. Honestly, everyone has to admit they looked extremely slow out there compared to BC. It was Men vs. Slow Men.

Football: The Big Ten beats each other up all season and Ohio State eventually comes out on top and they start claiming how good they are and the Big Ten is a tough conference week in and week out. So what happens when they get to the NC game the last two years vs. SEC teams: They get completely blown off the field by Florida and LSU. Too slow, too big at certain positions and basically get embarrassed by the faster, quicker teams from the SEC.

While I was watching the game tonight, this comparison just kept popping into my head. I may be completely wrong but I don't think so.

So what are those Big Ten teams doing to change their fates? They are recruiting speed, speed and more speed. They realized they are not going to be able to keep up. THis is exactly what the WCHA needs to realize, they need those faster players again. Where are the Hoogsteens, Panzers, Blakes? This team had nobody even close to the speed those players had.

This year you are absolutely right. However, historically, I disagree. You don't gather something like 39 or 40 DI titles as a conference by simply being all tough during the regular seasons.

[Dden1]

This year you are absolutely right. However, historically, I disagree. You don't gather something like 39 or 40 DI titles as a conference by simply being all tough during the regular seasons.

From where I sat, Sioux got beat by a faster team, but also one that outworked and out physicaled them on the boards and beat them to pucks. Just a better team, at least today- and probably most days.

[UND-1]

This year you are absolutely right. However, historically, I disagree. You don't gather something like 39 or 40 DI titles as a conference by simply being all tough during the regular seasons.

That is exactly my point. For the past few years, BC has been smoking UND with speed. Its not even close. But just like the Big Ten, the WCHA hangs its hat on past championships. Well those days are just that, in the past. They need to get some speed guys or this is going to keep happening. Ohio State built there team to compete in the Big Ten just like UND does for the WCHA but when you get to the National Tournament you are three steps slow.

[redwing77]

That is exactly my point. For the past few years, BC has been smoking UND with speed. Its not even close. But just like the Big Ten, the WCHA hangs its hat on past championships. Well those days are just that, in the past. They need to get some speed guys or this is going to keep happening. Ohio State built there team to compete in the Big Ten just like UND does for the WCHA but when you get to the National Tournament you are three steps slow.

Well, if the NHL and the NCAA get their way, 1st rounders and top end NHL draftees with size won't be going the DI route due to the removal of control over their draftees (the whole thing about not being allowed to sign players out of college before a certain time)... so the logical thing to do is to go the opposite direction. Go for projects and long shots with strong upsides in one facet of the game and try to balance it out with grinders and role players.

This, imo, would open the path to small, extremely fast players who would normally not garner much attention by big programs like MJ or the NHL due to their small size. So, we could see more 5'6 or 5'7" players.

By the way, this is COMPLETE speculation based on OPINION. I'm probably wrong, but who cares. It's my OPINION!

[Goon]

This, imo, would open the path to small, extremely fast players who would normally not garner much attention by big programs like MJ or the NHL due to their small size. So, we could see more 5'6 or 5'7" players.

By the way, this is COMPLETE speculation based on OPINION. I'm probably wrong, but who cares. It's my OPINION!

I see what your saying but if the ref doesn't call the game the way its supposed to play a slower bigger team can negate the speed with the hooking and holding. I think UND has tried to take the size of the CCHA teams (both Michigan and ND are big teams) and add speed guys but we have gottened killed by teams with flat out speed. I also want to see a Frozen Four game without Shegos reffing the Fighting Sioux. I am not saying it was the reason we lost. I would hate to think what our record is when he refs.

Also the leg check on Chorney should have been a 5 minute major that was one of the dirtiest checks I saw all season long.

[sf340flier]

I agree with the original poster...I had the exact same thoughts watching the game tonight. I think the WCHA clearly got exposed in the NCAAs.

I've also wondered if its our officiating, or some other reason. But right now, I think we all have to live with the fact that some teams in Hockey East and the CCHA have either caught up, or the talent in the WCHA has gone down. Either way, the Sioux were the best team in the WCHA this year, and maybe the fourth or fifth best in the country (at present).

Don't get me wrong, this could easily change again next year...and I hope it does.

Still a great season for the Sioux!

[Siouxtimestwo]

It is a very valid comparison. Like Redwing said, it is just a recent development that teams that actually recruit more than 4-5 designated skaters on their teams have killed us. The WCHA has been a historically dominant league, but the style of play was a lot different when the conference won the majority of those titles. Back then, WCHA teams could also throw a whole lineup of skilled, physical hockey players out on the ice. I just hate the roles that everyone has on these recent teams. What happened to the days when a hockey player could be physical and fast? Why does it have to be one or the other? I'm not saying we should expect a team full of 50 point scorers, but at least have the middle third of our stat sheet be a threat on the ice. After the first couple forwards, the rest garnered no respect from opposing teams.

It gets old watching teams hang all over the Oshies, Parises, Toewses, and Bochenskis, but think about why other teams can get away with it. It has a lot more to do with the skill level of some of their teammates than it does with the refs. The refs can do more to deter that stuff, but can our program control the refs? No, but we can control how our forwards play. Make the other teams have to respect more than 3 players on our team and things will open up. If we're going to blame everything on the refs and rip other conferences, we had damn sure better make sure we are playing flawless hockey.

[jloos]

Champions since 2000 WCHA hockey 6/8 - 9 counting this year. Still 2/3.

Wisconsin

Denver

Denver

Minnesota

Minnesota

North Dakota

Champions since 2000 Big Ten football

Ohio State

ND and BC were pretty evenly matched. The Sioux decided to fall asleep defensively and BC's goalie stood on his head. It could have easily been 4-0 Sioux after the first as wide open as both teams played.

[The Greek]

Finally, a decent thread to hold an intelligent discussion on.......I've been going to WCHA games for many years now and I have seen the league change. The coaches, schools, league administrators and referees should take note of what is happening. The analogy of the WCHA becoming another Big 10 is accurate. Regular season games have resembled chess matches rather than athletic contests. I've seen the same game plan or strategy repeated over and over. The visiting team does all they can to keep the game close and then they try to win it in the 3rd period. Teams deploy systems and the players are taught to follow them to a "T." Most of the systems are defensive and I think this is a big reason why scoring is down in the WCHA. So what's lacking? I think we're missing offensive innovation and that's because the systems are being preached too much. Remember when Blais became successful? He went with small, quick jitterbugs and taught offense when the rest of the league was more focused on big, plodding defensive bruisers. Obviously, finding the right balance between quickness and size is the trick and something that is difficult to accomplish given all the dynamics of recruiting and keeping premium players in the league.

The WCHA should consider making some changes. Remember, it's the coaches that didn't want to adopt the NHL style of calling obstruction penalties. They collectively determined that the game should be called the same way it has been for years. That is, not calling the game tightly. Allowing obstruction, especially away from the puck. This retards scoring and is frustrating for fans to watch as well. Who wants to go to a hockey game and sit on there hands all game long? Fans like to get up and cheer. When the scores are low, the fans aren't getting enough reasons to cheer. For me, this season has been brutal from a referee perspective. Each team of refs has there own style of calling games. That's a joke. I want more than just a consistently called game. I want a consistently called league meaning the different reffing crews should be using the same standards....not their own. Look at the example of Jonathan Toews. Arguably, he's been more successful in the NHL than the WCHA. How can that be? It's time for the WCHA to innovate and adapt. They must be willing to look at the problems that exist today (low scoring, poor NCAA performances as of late) and tweak the game to remain the premier college league in the country. Don't let the pendulum swing too far.

I'm not suggesting drastic, knee jerk changes just because the Sioux got beat last night. I am suggesting that the all parties that have a stake in the WCHA consider a few warning signs and be willing to make some changes to keep their league on top. The Sioux played poorly last night. They had a tough game. It happens with young players. The choke factor is extremely high. It hurts. I like the Sioux players, coaching staff, the tradition of the program and all the people that are motivated to keeping it one of the top programs in the country. But, let's not be afraid to evaluate what's happening and add some twists or innovations. Let's reward creativity. Let's make changes designed to increase scoring.

I'm not trying to lay blame on anyone or at any one place. But, I am hoping that the WCHA brain trusts take note and think about ways to keep the WCHA on top and keep the fans in their seats. I believe the other leagues have caught up to the WCHA (at least key teams in each of the leagues). It's time for the WCHA to raise the bar again. Let's put the excitement, creativity, and innovation back in the game. Let's continue to draw the top talent before it's too late. Let's make the games more fun for the fans.

[Wookie#12]

I see what your saying but if the ref doesn't call the game the way its supposed to play a slower bigger team can negate the speed with the hooking and holding. I think UND has tried to take the size of the CCHA teams (both Michigan and ND are big teams) and add speed guys but we have gottened killed by teams with flat out speed. I also want to see a Frozen Four game without Shegos reffing the Fighting Sioux. I am not saying it was the reason we lost. I would hate to think what our record is when he refs.

Also the leg check on Chorney should have been a 5 minute major that was one of the dirtiest checks I saw all season long.

Living in the land of the CCHA and watching many of their games, Shegos will make a call on anyone at any time of the game, he plays no favs, but is pretty close to being consitant during the game. Non of that 50/40/10 calling of a game. As a coach, you must know this and tell your players how to expect the ref is going to call the game.

Blame the coaches for not scouting the ref and telling his players.

[Siouxtimestwo]

Exactly. There have been plenty of terrible calls in all sports throughout the years. Great teams overcome these things. Good, but not great teams get to go home and cry about all off-season. Great teams put themselves in positions where one bad call wont' affect the outcome. For crying out loud, we were down 6-0, including one BC shortie! Does anyone honestly believe the refs had anything to do with that? This is 4 straight years where we simply weren't good enough. I have a hard time believing that the refs were the reason we didn't win the title each of the past 4 years. I also have a hard time believing that the refs are the reason we can't win games against mediocre teams before Christmas, either.

If we had better depth on our 3rd and 4th lines and not a bunch of grinders who can do nothing but talk trash to the BC bench when they're kicking our butts, teams wouldn't be able to throw 5 straight body checks on Oshie every time he touches the puck. Another thing we can do to keep teams from playing us physical is to be more aggressive on our power play. When we want it to be, our power play can be unstoppable. Half the time, all we do is pass it back and forth from point to point or dump and chase and kill the penalty ourselves. We can either whine about refs for the next 10 years or else we can decide to take the necessary measures ourselves, because there is nothing UND's players or coaches can do about officiating.

[MafiaMan]

Football: The Big Ten beats each other up all season and Ohio State eventually comes out on top and they start claiming how good they are and the Big Ten is a tough conference week in and week out. So what happens when they get to the NC game the last two years vs. SEC teams: They get completely blown off the field by Florida and LSU. Too slow, too big at certain positions and basically get embarrassed by the faster, quicker teams from the SEC.

The only thing you pointed out UND-1 is that Ohio State was not as good as Florida in 2007 and LSU in 2008. For all the talk of SEC speed, only two end-zone fumbles by Mike Hart prevented Michigan from completely blowing out Florida in the Blockbuster Bowl. Is that one game an indictment of the entire SEC? It shouldn't be anymoreso than Ohio State getting smoked by Florida or LSU should be an indictment of the Big 10.

I'll say this, though. For all of the posters who loved to talk about the Cup Cake Hockey Association and Hockey Least, I'll point out that the WCHA's ONLY victory in this post-season against a non-conference foe was UND's win over Princeton. Humble pie for the WCHA.

[UND-1]

The only thing you pointed out UND-1 is that Ohio State was not as good as Florida in 2007 and LSU in 2008. For all the talk of SEC speed, only two end-zone fumbles by Mike Hart prevented Michigan from completely blowing out Florida in the Blockbuster Bowl. Is that one game an indictment of the entire SEC? It shouldn't be anymoreso than Ohio State getting smoked by Florida or LSU should be an indictment of the Big 10.

I'll say this, though. For all of the posters who loved to talk about the Cup Cake Hockey Association and Hockey Least, I'll point out that the WCHA's ONLY victory in this post-season against a non-conference foe was UND's win over Princeton. Humble pie for the WCHA.

That game against Florida was a complete mirage. It was Lloyd Carr

[pstar]

It was a bad year for the WCHA. A bad YEAR. Not a bad decade. Our talent pool was way down this season. Very few pure skaters/passers/scorers.

I don;t think we need to fear the other leagues yet. they have improved. I knew all year CCHA was much better at the top (watched games on CSTV and other places).

I like the WCHA style. I think the WCHA will remain the best conference in college hockey. But we took some lumps this year.

[MafiaMan]

That game against Florida was a complete mirage. It was Lloyd Carr

[UND-1]

So Michigan wasn't ready for Lloyd Carr's last game against the Buckeyes but came out fired up against Florida. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Florida lost a heartbreaker at home to Auburn and again the next week to eventual champ LSU. A banged-up Tim Tebow almost led them to victory against Georgia (despite the defense giving up almost 50 points to the Bulldogs). Percy Harvin ran his mouth off all week about Michigan's lack of speed and the maize and blue torch Florida for almost 400 yards of passing.

You're saying the defense was BORED? I'm saying their defense was over-rated.

31 points to Troy, 37 to Kentucky, 42 to Georgia, 31 to South Carolina, and 41 to Michigan. What is this, Arena Football?

I give up. The Big Ten IS as good as the SEC in football, just like the WCHA teams are as good as HE and CCHA in hockey.

There is no difference between the two whatsoever. BC just got really really lucky last night. LSU and Florida got really really lucky when they annihalated OSU in back to back years.

[MafiaMan]

I give up. The Big Ten IS as good as the SEC in football, just like the WCHA teams are as good as HE and CCHA in hockey.

There is no difference between the two whatsoever. BC just got really really lucky last night. LSU and Florida got really really lucky when they annihalated OSU in back to back years.

Dude, I'm simply pointing out that Ohio State getting beat by Florida and LSU in back-to-back seasons doesn't prove anything more than the Buckeyes not being as good as those teams. Using your analogy, are you saying that Davidson would be the team to beat in the Big East since it beat Georgetown in a single-elimination tournament game?

I've said all season long that HE and the CCHA are better than people think. I totally agree with you on the point of the WCHA not being the best conference in college hockey.

[MafiaMan]

Where are the Hoogsteens, Panzers, Blakes? This team had nobody even close to the speed those players had.

And I totally agree with this assessment.

[UND-1]

And I totally agree with this assessment.

That statement is more of what I was getting at. I got a little sidetracked talking about conferences, etc. The speed players are the biggest difference that I have seen.

[MafiaMan]

That statement is more of what I was getting at. I got a little sidetracked talking about conferences, etc. The speed players are the biggest difference that I have seen.

I agree totally. There's little doubt that Gerbe was the best player on the ice last night...and it wasn't close.

[UND-1]

Here is a very telling quote from Jerry York:

"I was talking with Paul Kelly right after the game. He's connected with the NHL Players Association and he said the game is changing so dramatically the last couple of years. The college game I think is more conducive now to creative players, to quick players, and we ought to be aware of the that. But you still need to balance your team with Nick Petrecki, Mike Brennan type guys. I think the smaller, quicker player, it's a better game for him to play now."

[Sioux]

That was as bad as it gets; BC conitnues to build small, speedy teams, whose physicality amounts to cheap shots on the opponents best players. Gerbe sent Lammy flying after scoring on him, then running him on the way by before the celebration.

If this had been the regular season, there would have been a major scrum that would have gone way beyond the Wisco/Sioux and Pioneers/Sioux scrums this season. Sioux held there composure very well, unfortunately BC used the cheapness to their advantage, once again.

i have to disagree. i think lammy flopped. from what i saw in the replay, he wasnt even touched.

[MafiaMan]

Gerbe sent Lammy flying after scoring on him, then running him on the way by before the celebration.

I hope this was sarcasm. Lammy flying after Gerbe's goal was a bigger flop than Nicole Kidman's last movie!