bale31

Better question...would I accept?

And that's why I think the idea of having the tourney in MSP and Grand Rapids makes more sense. We're not going to get casual fans. We need to find where the alumni are and stay as close to the student and season ticket holder locations as possible. That's what you need to draw from otherwise you're asking to have a 8000 seat arena drawing 1500 people rather than a 17,000 seat arena drawing 5000 people. It's just a question with no good answer.

Of course I understand why UND, Denver, et al did it. I question the wisdom of what they did though. I question the manner in which it was done. And I question whether the assumptions that are being made are legit. Troy Jutting made a pretty good comment when this was first happening. He said something to the effect that change is not necessarily bad. But, college hockey is as strong as it has ever been. With that being said, you can change things, but you damn well better make sure that you are making positive changes. I personally am not convinced that these changes are for the better of the sport. Neither the Big Ten formation nor the reaction in forming the NCHC. I look at those as two separate decision not necessarily as linked as you do. I understand the reasons given, I'm just not sure that I buy them.Only time will tell whether they were positive, negative or have no effect. I will say that the whole change has changed my perspective of college hockey. To me college hockey was above the fray and people truly looked out for the good of the sport. I no longer give that thought any credence in any way. The Big Ten formed=all about the money. The WCHA was trying to take Miami and W Michigan=all about the money (not to mention that it would have left a quite a few schools in even worse shape than they are right now). The NCHC forming=all about the money. There isn't a single school in all of this that can claim they weren't looking selfishly at the situation (including MSU and BSU). I will say though, I feel really bad for BSU. They haven't received a cent from being in the WCHA tournament. This was supposed to be their last year on financial probation and next year they would have received cash from the WCHA tournament. Instead, they have put money into moving up, they've built a new arena, and now are having the carpet pulled out from under them. College hockey lost its innocence two summers ago and it became a selfish money grab. Whether that hurt the sport as a whole in the long run was of no consequence. This whole thing has been driven by short term financial motivators that sicken me. College hockey at this point is no different than college football and college basketball. If it means stepping all over everyone else, so be it. That's the direction that athletic directors and presidents are going. From a competitive standpoint, I actually think this will be a good thing for MSU (and potentially BSU). MN is still agreeing to play us on a yearly basis. We get part of the receipts from the MN Cup and in the off year have the Gophers come to our barn for what is usually the biggest draw every season. We have a conference that we can win/compete in every year. We have other non-conference opponents close to us either within the state (SCSU, UMD) or very close by (UND, UNO) that we can pull from. Again, in my opinion, I think everyone is going to get a rude awakening that the NCHC isn't going to be the financial windfall that is expected and will need to set up away games that are close and inexpensive (UND being the exception because it's just a different circumstance). We're going to have a good non-conference schedule to keep us competitive nationally. I know I"m in the minority, but I think the WCHA will send at least 2 teams each year to the national tourney and we've got a chance to be one of those teams most years. Whether we can continue to be financially viable is the real question that all of the WCHA schools are going to have to find out.

At least the tickets would be sold.

Correct. I've posted on Rube Chat a bunch, but if it isn't about the Gophers, no one will respond anymore. It's pretty much Gopher talk and that it over there now. I still go there and get a few digs in, but am not nearly as active any longer.

I think I didn't explain very clearly with that (hell it was 12:30 when I posted it). What I'm saying is that the closest school to Green Bay is NMU at 178 miles and goes up to 440 miles with Ferris of the schools mentioned. You're correct in that it is more centrally located. I don't dispute that. What I'm saying is that it makes more sense to hold it in a location that is close to at least one school (arbitrarily using 150 miles) and you have that with MSP (Kato) and Grand Rapids (Ferris). You also have large alumni bases in MSP (Kato and BSU) and to a lesser extent Grand Rapids (due to it's relative proximity to Detroit) in the MI schools. Let's face it, these schools don't and probably won't ever travel very well. I'm an MSU fan (there you go watchmaker ) and I've been to about half of the current WCHA venues with MSU (MN, SCSU, UNO, Denver, UND, and will be going to CC next weekend) and the amount of fans there was beyond underwhelming. I would say that MN and SCSU had the most fans with about 100-200 and that's probably being generous. I think that it's going to be pretty difficult to go to a central point like Green Bay and have too many fans drive/fly to get there. It' just unrealistic. Now, this is where I get to my point about needing to pull in casual fans from the area. Green Bay isn't exactly a college hockey hot bed. As mentioned before, the Gamblers average 3700 per game. To me having it as close to 1 or 2 of the schools is the only way to draw fans. It's unfair competitively and it's certainly not ideal to have a building that's more than half empty, but that's likely what we have to deal with if we want it to be at a neutral site. To the point of the regular season champion holding it, I personally, favor that. I know it's not going to happen in the first 4-5 years for sure though. I know there are logistical issue to it, but I think those are probably things that can be overcome. It's possible that could cause some serious issues with expenses rising like crazy (could you imagine the expense if one of the Alaska schools won the conference and you had to fly 3-4 full teams up to Alaska on a week's notice) and revenues plummet (again, traveling to Alaska is not going to happen for any casual fans). Also, you lose the ability to create a year after year following. Again, no perfect answer.

I'm not saying that I don't want your opinions. That's not it at all. My point is that UND fans' opinions don't play into the decision making. The fact that you "don't have a dog in the fight" is exactly the point I was trying to make. The administrators need to worry about what is going to make our fans happy and what is going to make money, not what is going to be perceived as "better" with other fan bases. I know it sounds like I'm being a bit of a dick (and that's going to happen on a message board), but what I'm saying is just that we're going to be mocked and ridiculed no matter what our schools do. It could always be better and we won't have a ton of fans there, but that can't matter at this point. It's about maximizing revenue and nothing more.

Again, though, who is going to show up to a WCHA tourney in Milwaukee? Badger fans? I get what you guys are saying about being "centrally located" (and I'm really not trying to be a dick), but from my perspective that's actually the worst thing that they could do. You're better off trying to find locations that are close to a couple of schools or alumni bases and taking advantage of them. None of these schools travel well.Having it 150+ miles away from any school is a recipe for disaster. I don't like it, but I know my fan base and those that are in the conference. It sucks, but that's not going to change.

That's one side of it, but you're not including the the fact that every other year it's going to be in Grand Rapids. I'm not just talking about MSP, I'm talking about the big picture. You fail to consider these stats: LSSU-GR: 277 miles (negligible) NMU-GR: 387 miles (Advantage GB) MTU-GR- 496 miles (Big advantage GB) FSU-GR: 57 miles (Big advantage GR) Oh yeah, then there is: BG-GR:221 miles (compared to 456 miles- Big advantage GR) Point being the travel between schools and locations are not that much different in the grand scheme of things. Considering that the WCHA is going to be spread out more than any other conference in the nation by a large margin, finding a "centrally" located arena isn't really that big of a deal. It's more important to look at where you are going to be able to draw the most fans on a yearly basis. There is going to be very little walkup traffic in Green Bay. Going on the off years of the Big Ten offers the potential for gaining some of those people that hard core fans of Big Ten teams. Having the ability to get in and out easily and cheaply is also a big deal for these schools. It's not cheap to fly into Green Bay. To fly into MSP is much less expensive. You can't cherry pick 4 schools and talk about how those 4 are the ones that you should look at....the conference is 10 teams (including a minimum of 3 that will be required to fly or bus for 20+ hours). If the tournament is held in Green Bay, you are most certainly counting on casual fans. If you have it in MSP you will have more of an alumni base to pull in as well as have easier access and Grand Rapids you will again have more of an alumni base in closer proximity to the location. You also have to look at the realistic situation that fans of these teams are both pessimistic and skeptical of the situation that we're left with. You have to try to make the fan bases of all of the teams as happy as possible. Having the tourney in a site that's the "least bad" isn't a good option at all. It's more likely to upset more people than it will do anything else.The perception of those people are what's important at this point. No one and nothing else. Nice little insult by the way. This has nothing to do with being upset with being left behind. Am I annoyed by it? Sure. Do I think it was short-sighted? Most certainly. Do I really think it's going to be for the better of everyone? Not a chance. That doesn't mean that I can't be objective about the situation. It may sound crass, but realistically, what a bunch of UND fans think is "better" for the WCHA is insignificant. UND fans or any NCHC or Big Ten schools have no bearing on any decision that the conference make from this point forward. The only schools and fans that matter are the ones that will be in the WCHA for the forseeable future. The perception of an empty arena doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is keeping our programs afloat.If acknowledging that fact is "being mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays", so be it. That doesn't change that it is the reality.

I think what you guys are missing is that you would alienate too many people by moving it to a "central" location that is a long drive for everyone. Look at it from the perspective of the fans of the schools and the administrators of the schools. You may think that having a half or 3/4 empty large arena looks bad, but frankly, I couldn't care less what you, as fans of UND (a non-WCHA member) thinks. Perception of other schools means nothing. It's all about the perception of our fans. If you alienate our own fans, you are much worse off than having people that aren't going to spend a cent on the conference tournament think you're doing the "right thing". Having the tournament in a city that is 2 hours away from any school, doesn't have an alumni base within the city, and doesn't even have a college hockey presence in is a great way to alienate your own fans. Add to that you're depending on casual hockey fans to drive the attendance is a disaster waiting to happen. The Green Bay Gamblers average attendance last year was just under 3700 fans and that's what you would be depending on to drive attendance for a tournament that doesn't really have a vested interest in the teams. I just think that people from outside the conference are making a whole lot of judgments based upon superficial observations rather than looking at it from the schools that are affected by it. We just don't have the luxury of worrying about perception. We have to fight to make sure our programs survive. I want the tournament to go wherever they can maximize revenue, perception be damned.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think people are going to show up to Green Bay or Milwaukee. In my opinion it's the worst of both worlds. It's not near any of the schools and you're going into an area that isn't really known for college hockey. Again, what's the logic for downsizing? To prove fans of teams that don't have any bearing on the conference any longer were right? If you go to GB or Milwaukee attendance suffers and as a percentage of capacity it's just as empty. As an MSU fan, I probably wouldn't go to GB or Mil on a yearly basis. I would on the other hand go to St Paul every two years. If you have it in GB or Mil you're not doing anything for the fans of those teams that are in the conference and you're depending on fans of hockey in general to fill the arena. That's the worst disservice that you can do for those schools. This conference is already a tough sell for our schools. Taking the conference tournament 9-10 hours away from the schools isn't going to benefit us at all.

The reality is that there is no good option for the WCHA. The only "right sized" arenas are on campus arenas and that's not going to happen any time soon. The problem with holding it in Grand Rapids every year is that it is prohibitive for more than 50% of the teams in the conference to attend. Just looking at the situation, it seems as though they have to be depending on the MN/MI fans attending the event when the Big Ten Tourney isn't at their location. The only thing the WCHA can do is attempt to make as good of a situation out of a bad situation. Realistically, what's the difference in having an empty 10,000 seat arena versus having an empty 16,000 seat arena. Sure it might open them up to some criticism from some hard core fans, but, honestly, who cares?

Umm...probably because I'm talking about the last 18 months since this cluster has been going on. I guess I should have been more clear. For even more clarification, that's from public statements made by our former coach and people within the administration.

I'm confused by this argument. WI and MN are two different situations. Just because WI was willing to bend their rules, doesn't mean that everyone else should too. Who cares what WI did. I don't know if it's a real or a made up reason, but saying "they did it too" isn't an excuse I would accept from my 3-year-old.

You do realize that there is more to schools than just hockey, right? You're looking at it from a very small microscopic view right now. It's not about "showing an interest in playing them". It's also about the academic and research side of things as well. My point in saying that the state of MN funds both institutions is that it's bigger than the hockey programs. It would be irresponsible of UMN to push for these schools to build arenas and push them to get in the WCHA and then when it doesn't benefit the U to just drop them. You underestimate the political ramifications of an act like that when hockey is the biggest sport (and potentially making or breaking a school's athletic department). If I were the U, I would much rather take the heat from UND fans than take it from the legislators that hold the purse strings for my yearly budget. Put in that context, it's a simple decision. I'm confused by this as well. My understanding all of these years is that MN threw it's weight around to get the likes of MSU and BSU into the conference. I can tell you that in the news and behind the scenes that Lucia was very supportive of MSU and getting us scheduled. I know at the beginning they were working with MSU to get us on their schedule for a series every year. That was before the MN Cup or whatever it will be called. I don't know if that's fallen through or whether that is still potentially going to happen in addition to the MN Cup or not. To say that MN hasn't been supportive of the other MN schools is just false. There are many things that I will rip the Gophers for, but that isn't one of them. They have had a stated goal since Herb Brooks that they want to make the universities in the state of Minnesota as successful as possible. People can doubt their intentions, but I've seen it from the perspective of one of those schools. Take that for what it's worth.

Umm....being funded by the exact same public government is a pretty good place to start, especially in the case of UMD. It's like saying that UND/MN have a closer relationship than UND/NDSU. It's just not true. Opposed to the common belief, MN has much more to think about with their University than the hockey program. There is everything from other sports (that are more popular) to acedemic issues to funding for research. Losing a rivalry with UND is no where near as important as any one of those facets of the university. And don't kid yourself, MN politicians are that petty that if they perceive a slight of their local university in favor of taking that money to ND they will raise a stink and hurt those other parts of the university. The U has enough of a PR problem right now with money matters after the WSJ story that they don't need anymore reasons for politicians to cut their funding.

Haha....you're right. Playing the rest of us in-state schools that MN has a much bigger relationship with than UND, is just an elaborate story so that MN can dodge UND. Just read that a few times and tell me that doesn't sound delusional. EDIT: I'm not disputing that the rest of the schools have been ignored. They have, but this is taking it about 20 steps further.

I kind of agree. They have shown that they have the dollars to make sure they support a team. It's probably not ideal as the geographic footprint is already huge, but I think the positives will outweight the negatives.

Good point. This one was especially strange though. We had goalie sitting in the penalty box, a goalie getting run and then nothing being called and a disallowed goal that no one other than the refs and WI beat writers seem to think was a good call. Very strange. I'm glad it was my college buddy reunion weekend and I had copious amounts of alcohol in me.

Ugh, this was a tough weekend. MSU didn't play all that well and was still in the thick of it. Add to that some of the strangest officiating I have ever seen in my life and I left the rink shaking my head.

This is pretty much what I was trying to say. The X and the Joe aren't ideal as they are too big, but the alternatives aren't really very good options either. The WCHA schools will be fine. Opposed to popular belief, those schools are committed to making hockey the flagship program of their schools (outside of Bowling Green). We can't afford to put as much money into the programs as much as the likes of UND, DU, Miami, etc (but then again neither can UMD or SCSU, but that's another story). BSU just put up a new arena and is changing the administration to make the financing work, MSU is trying to get funding for a new arena for the 6th year running and hired a new high dollar coach. MTU just hired a new high dollar coach and is trying to find funding to make renovations. There is a commitment there. I, honestly, don't expect fans from outside the conference to support the WCHA teams. College hockey fans and programs have proven that they are no different than any other college sport. Just look at UAH. Everyone "wants" them to survive, but the only team that was willing to travel to UAH was MSU this year. The CCHA denied them entry into the conference even though it made sense. The WCHA is going to have to make it on their own because it's pretty obvious that no one else really gives a damn about anyone except themselves at this point.

You're right, it's not going to be well attended in comparison to the old WCHA, HCHC, or Big Ten. No one is aruing that it will. But to take it to the location of one of the schools that dropped the other 9 AND put it 6-15 hours out of the way of any of those schools is flat out foolish. It woudl do more damage than good.

As long as UND was in the tourney, they were going to be in Grand Forks though, correct? If so, that's not a big gamble. If that's the case, there would be no UND competition. That's not the case with a conference tourney. OK, so there might, and that's a BIG MIGHT, be a benefit for UND and Grand Forks. What benefit is there for the WCHA and more specifically the schools and fans of those teams? I can tell you having to drive 6 hours to get to the tournament location would be prohibitive for me. If it's the Michigan schools it's more like 15 hours to drive. That's just not realistic for these teams. And putting it in front of a bunch of people that don't give a damn about those schools is not a good way to create a good atmosphere around the tournament. As a fan of Kato, I would be extremely upset if the conference decided to spit in our face and benefit a school that left us instead of having it in a more local location. In that scenario I'm looking at a much bigger picture. The conference's target audience is not UND fans, it's WCHA fans. Pissing off WCHA fans is not a good way to get everyone behind the newWCHA.

That's what I was getting at, I guess.Admittedly, that's better than I was thinking it was, but it's certainly not a sellout.

The attendance at the CCHA tourney would suggest otherwise. Unless it's Michigan vs Michigan State the attendance has has been pretty paltry. I just don't think the Big Ten is going to have that great of attendance. It's likely to be on par with what the NCHC has which will be a step down from the current WCHA Final Five. The only certainty is that none of us really knows for sure. I don't think we'll have a good handle on conferences and conference tournaments for a good 5 years. Until then there is no history with any of those tournys.