82SiouxGuy

I think that you are wrong about Ralph. He felt very strongly about the name, no one would question that. But I think that he supported the University and the hockey program even more. He used the threat to halt construction as a weapon, which worked. But I strongly believe that he would have continued to support the program even if it were forced to change the name. He didn't want them to voluntarily change it, but would have understood if they were forced. He just would have done everything he could before it reached that conclusion. The program is so much more than just a name. As good as the name is, it is just a minor part of the tradition and quality that is UND hockey and UND athletics. The program is made up of people and relationships and so much more. All of those are more important than a nickname. Players and coaches won those 7 hockey titles, the nickname didn't score a goal or make a save or throw a check. The nickname just looked good on the scoreboard. And you are as delusional as some of the nickname opponents if you think that I have ever been disrespectful to the nickname. I have been a fan probably longer than you have been alive. I have been in complete support of the name throughout the years. But I also can see the writing on the wall. Continuing the fight after the deadline is going to do nothing but harm to the program. If the name has to go, making a complete change would be the best thing for the health of the entire athletic department and the entire university. Letting the issue linger would continue to cause problems. The University won't let that happen. So if a change must happen they will have a cooling off period where they use no nickname, and then will find an alternative that they hope will be satisfactory to most people. I hope they find something great. But no matter what it is, my loyalty is tied to the institution that is the University of North Dakota and to the athletic programs that it supports.

That the Oilers moved to Tennessee in 1997 is correct. But they played in Memphis at the Liberty Bowl for 1997. They then moved to Nashville and played the 1998 season at Vanderbilt Stadium. The new stadium in Nashville opened in 1999. It was called Adelphia Coliseum. They opened the new stadium with the new name, although it had been announced before the end of the previous season. That was my earlier point. They changed the name when they moved into the new stadium to help rebrand the team and make it more appealing to Tennessee people since they don't have a lot of oil in Tennessee. It was all part of a process that took several years, from the decision to leave Houston until they were settled at Adelphia. But the new name was the finishing touch along with the new home. However, it is the same franchise and same team. If they themselves think they are the same team then I'm not sure how you can tell them that they are wrong and you are right. If the Fighting Sioux nickname has to go, they will choose a new nickname for UND at some time in the future, and probably not too many years out. We have seen at Dartmouth and at Marquette the problems that can occur when they don't do a good job of replacing a nickname. It can cause problems years out. The school won't want that to happen. Allowing fans to continue to use Sioux as an unofficial nickname because they don't have a new one would cause problems. Plus, finding a great new nickname and logo could be very lucrative to the school because they could sell a lot of new merchandise. I believe that they will find a way to choose something new. So you better enjoy the next year or 2 or 3 of Sioux sports. You may have to find a new team to support after that.

First of all, the Oilers didn't disappear when they changed their name. The Titans still consider that part of their franchise. It was part of the evolution process. If you go to the Tennessee Titans web site you will see the entire history of the franchise, including the years they called themselves the Oilers. They don't think that they became a different team even if you do. But even if you could consider the Titans a new team, which it wasn't, the major difference in your scenario is that THEY MOVED TO A DIFFERENT CITY, A DIFFERENT STATE AND A NEW STADIUM. They rebranded themselves to fit better into a new situation. Companies rebrand at times as do sports teams. The Titans didn't start over. And neither will the University of North Dakota. The team will continue. It probably just won't be called by the same name. I know that you don't like the idea of UND losing the nickname and logo. A lot of people don't like the idea. I don't like it, although I have accepted that it will probably happen. And if you decide not to be a fan of UND when they choose a new nickname, that is up to you. I am not trying to tell you that you're wrong about that. That would be your choice. I'M TELLING YOU THAT THE ONLY PLACE THAT THEY WOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS A TOTALLY NEW TEAM IS IN YOUR MIND. Everyone else recognizes that it would be a program making a change. A major change, but still just a change. They will have the same team records and the same team history and the same players and the same coaches and the same trainers and the same administrators and the same reporters and the same fans and the same home facilities and etc.

I loved the Midnight Special, but the show that got me started listening to music was this. I don't remember this episode. If you listen to the interview at the end, the bass player is from the "wilds of North Dakota".

The Athletic Department is a part of the whole that is the University of North Dakota. They are not the same but they are related. I don't care if you decide to root for the University of North Dakota teams or not, whether they change the name or not. My problem is that you keep saying that the teams will not exist, that new teams will take their place if the name is changed. That is not correct. As I have said many times, the teams will not change. They are the University of North Dakota football team, the University of North Dakota hockey team and the University of North Dakota whatever sports teams. The players will be the same (except those students that move on). The coaches will be the same. The trainers will be the same. The facilities will be the same. The nickname, logo and uniforms may change. BUT THE TEAMS WILL NOT BE DIFFERENT, THEY WON'T BE EXPANSION TEAMS. Root for the University of North Dakota teams, root for the Gophers , root for the Bison, Root for the St. Louis Bilikens. Root for whoever you want. Just realize that the teams are not going away, but the name might. It's not the same thing.

I didn't realize that they were going to kick all of those student-athletes out of school and fire all of the coaches. That's not right. I think we should talk to somebody about that. Are they going to tear down the Ralph, the Alerus Center and Memorial Stadium too?

I'll have to go back and read my diploma again. I don't remember getting a Fighting Sioux degree.

You feel like it was a complete breakdown of the defense, and yet you were blaming Finley for making the mistakes. Both games featured multiple mistakes in sequence that resulted in goals against UND. But because Finley was the last stand of defense before the goalie, he gets all of the blame whether he makes a mistake or not. Unfortunately, that's the way many people looked at it.

I've been with you the whole time. Like I said, I don't usually get into these type discussions. Plus, you've usually done a really good job handling them.

I don't usually get into these discussions, but I am making an exception for this one. Many of the odd man rushes against Boston College in 2008 were not because Finley made a mistake or was out of position. They were because Genoway was being overly aggressive on the offensive end and either lost the puck or was out of position. That left Finley going back to play a 2 on 1 against much quicker players. That is not a situation that works to Joe's advantage, although he ended up facing it quite often over the past couple of years with Genoway as a partner. I am not saying that Finley never made a mistake. And I am not saying that Genoway is a bad player. They are college kids and all of them make mistakes. But Finley was often blamed for plays where he was trying to cover up for someone else, he was just in place at the end of the play so it looked like he made the mistake.

In hockey it may be a moot point. The NC$$ is trying to put all Division 1 hockey tournaments in "neutral" sites instead of the home arenas of colleges. So they are putting them in places like the Xcel Energy Center instead of on campus at Minnesota, or the Pepsi Center instead of Denver's home rink. If they follow through with that policy there is no way REA would host a hockey regional. Then it comes down to the potential of hosting volleyball or women's basketball either at the Ralph or the Betty. Or maybe the NC$$ agrees to let the Ralph host 1 or 2 regionals as an incentive to make the changes.

Actual video footage of the meeting in Chicago.

I don't know if they have that as a line item in their budget. They may have to add it.

The settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$ spells out exactly which logos have to be removed each year through 2015 I believe. The problem is that the REA was not part of the making the agreement and have not agreed to the settlement. The last estimate I heard on total cost of removal is at least $1 million.

I think that in the end REA will try to work with the UND Athletic Department on the problem. The real problem is that the list of changes is written into the settlement between the SBoHE and the NC$$. REA was not part of the settlement. So they will want to make as few changes as possible. They may try to negotiate with the NC$$ to eliminate some of the "required" changes. And they won't want to pay for it. That will have to come from UND.

That is a good question. The only reason I can come up with is that there is no tie between that imagery and any of the schools. At UND there will always be a tie between the school and the nickname and logo even if the tie is historical. But that is good information for REA to have if they can renegotiate the terms of the settlement since REA was not a party to the settlement. From doing a little quick research it looks like the United Center has hosted the NC$$ Basketball Tournament 7 times, the last being in 2007.

Don't forget that the Gophers of UMTC were a football powerhouse at one time. Does anyone on this board remember the last time they went to the Rose Bowl?

Which is why I said this: I think they would have a hard time restricting that advertising.

I don't blame the SBoHE for not getting an agreement. I believe that it was a long shot from the start. I do blame them for the lack of effort. It would have been easier for many people to accept if they had made a strong effort to get the job done.

I am not an attorney either, but I think it comes down to how much things can be controlled. The imagery on the building, or using a building that already has such imagery can be controlled by the University and/or the landlord. The University could ask that the imagery is removed (probably having to pay for it) or they could decide not to use the building. The landlord has the choice to remove it or not rent the building. I do know that the NC$$ can control which buildings they use based on imagery or any other criteria they choose. Whether they could control what member schools use for regular season games or practices is an interesting question. The subject for REA came up for hosting NC$$ tournament games. Advertising I think is a little more questionable. Could there be restraint of trade issues or something similar if a legal product using legal imagery is not allowed in? And the NC$$ undermines itself on that issue by using Pontiac as a major sponsor. With the changes in the auto industry that may go away. Sweatshirts and other personal items would be much harder to control because of personal freedoms. I think that the NC$$ would have a very difficult time trying to limit clothing worn by fans. The only time I have heard of being able to limit clothing is in the case of obscenity laws, and not always in those cases.

I like them, especially the white. What would they look like if you add a narrow black stripe between the white and green on both? It would be kind of an accent color.

And what is your point? NDSU fans can't have it both ways. Either DII was important or it wasn't. NDSU did very well in DII sports, but not as well in the last decade they played in DII. NDSU won more DII National Titles than UND. But many NDSU fans claim that DII isn't important now that they aren't there. UND has won more DI National Titles than NDSU. Which is more important? UND had a lot of success at DII. NDSU has had good success for its brief time in DI. They both have had a lot of success in athletics over the past 100 years. So what is your point?

This is a very difficult question and the answer is very long. If you want the short version skip to the last paragraph for the summary. I wish that UND could be the Fighting Sioux forever. If you knew me you would know that I have been a huge supporter. I have lots of Fighting Sioux stuff and wear it proudly all over the country. The name and logo represent everything I like in a sports nickname and logo. It is unique, the logo is beautiful and represents attributes like strength and honor. And all of that is in addition to close to 80 years of tradition. I grew up near Grand Forks and have been a Sioux fan since I was a child, which is a long time (I started watching UND football several years before they played in the Camellia Bowl, most people will have to look that up). There have been times that the name wasn't treated with the proper respect, but I believe that UND has done a very good job for many years and that use of the name has been a positive for the University and the tribes. One story that shows a reason why I like the name and logo would be a trip I took to Boston during the summer a couple of years ago. I was at one of the tourist attractions talking to a US Park Ranger. He asked where I was from. When I said Grand Forks he automatically said, "University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux. The college kids around here love that logo." People remember UND in part because of the name and logo. But I am a realist. I now realize that the fight was over when the NC$$ made their edict and then was allowed to change their own rules. The court case was a long shot. When the NC$$ found another way to change rules after the fact, the case was lost. The settlement just bought UND a few more years. And the decision by the SBoHE last week cut that settlement time by less than a year. The key part of the settlement, as I see it, was the fact that even if the tribes gave permission they could change their mind at any time. This is basically the same situation as Florida State and the others that have NA names. The difference is the active core group that has been fighting the Sioux nickname for 40 years. I don't think that the other schools have a group that active or large fighting against them. Even if the tribes gave permission (which is a big if) the opposition group would keep working against it. And anyone that has watched tribal politics at all over the years knows that tribal governments can change their minds on a dime. So UND was not going to be safe without some form of long term agreement in place with both tribes. And even that may not be safe since later governments may not feel the need to follow that agreement. They are separate governments so they can do things the way they want. The election at Spirit Lake showed that there is really support on the reservation. It fit within the results of polls done in the past. But it was not binding on anyone. It did not fit within the settlement's definition of the tribe giving support. Only a minority of the population took part in the election. That means that the nickname opposition would only need to get about 400 more people (out of 6,000 tribal members) out to the polls next time to defeat the name. And you know that the opposition would get another election going if that's all they needed to do to get rid of the name. They were not ready to give up. So I have almost no faith in the ability to find a long term solution at this stage in the game. The potential opportunity to get into the Summit is very important to a majority of the UND Athletic Department. Being in a conference is very important in collegiate athletics. It helps stabilize costs, especially travel and helps a great deal with scheduling. It also helps build an audience for games as the fans become familiar with opposing teams. At this stage of transition to Division 1 and where UND is located will limit the potential conferences that would even consider accepting them. The only 2 that anyone has recognized as possible are the Summit and the Big Sky. The Big Sky has shown no interest in coming this far east and isn't actively seeking new members. So the Summit is a good fit. They are looking for another member, several former rivals are members, UND could step in and be a quality league member, and many other reasons make it seem like a good idea. It isn't the highest rated conference in Division 1, but those conferences are not going to be interested in adding a transitional school of any kind, especially one outside their footprint. So any idea of joining the Big Ten, Big 12 or even a lower level like the Mountain West conference does not make any sense at all. The Summit may be the only chance of conference membership in the near future. And life in Division 1 without that membership would be very hard. It may end up causing the failure of the move to D1. Unfortunately for UND, they are not the only school close to the Summit that is looking for a conference. It sounds like there are 5 other schools trying for that single spot. Several of those probably don't have much of a chance, it sounds like the Summit would rather not have them. But we don't know who all of the schools are so it is impossible to determine how they stack up for conference membership against UND. And the conference gets to decide the details like who they consider, what they want and when they want it. If UND wants to get into the conference they have to follow any rules that the Summit would put in place. If UND doesn't follow the rules it would be up to the conference to decide whether they would still want to take UND or would rather take one of the other schools. I will try to sum up this long winded answer. I think that the chances of keeping the name became very slim when UND was forced to settle the case with the NC$$. It is almost impossible to make that work long term under present conditions. Long term is the key part of that statement. I think that the chance to get into a conference has changed the timeline. The choice became move up the timeline and probably lose the name starting this fall but greatly increase the chance of becoming a conference member or wait until next year when you risk the conference choosing someone else and you still probably have to change the name. If I thought that UND had any real chance of getting a long term agreement to keep the name the whole situation would probably be different. I don't see that happening. So I am like Shawn-O and have accepted the probable change as a necessary evil. And I have accepted the decision to make the change early in order to apply for admission to a conference for most of the UND Athletic Department. I believe that is the best that can come out of a bad situation that has developed over many years. I don't like having to do it, but it is time to bite the bullet and make this hard decision. Dragging it out longer risks doing more damage.

You may never buy anything with a new logo. Or you could possibly change your mind, never is a long time. You might even like the new logo, depending on what it is. That is definitely your decision. And there are probably a significant number of people that feel like you do. But not everyone will feel that way. Some will buy the new stuff to support the school. Some will buy it to add to a collection. Some will buy it if it looks good. And as time goes by, more and more people will buy it because it may be the only name that they associate with the school. It will be kind of like current students at Central High School in Grand Forks. Their nickname is the Knights and I would bet that most of them don't associate Central with the the name Redskins, even though the school used that name for years. That is why I believe that UND will continue to sell plenty of merchandise. Personally I know that I will buy new stuff. Mine wears out. It is just a matter of how slowly I work my way into it. But I doubt that I will change my screen name.

They've got to make a buck some how. They obviously know what sells. Actually I got a couple of great deals at the Sioux Shop sale a few weeks ago. They had great sweatshirts for $15 and caps for $5.