82SiouxGuy

I have been told by someone on staff at UND during time that it was not meant to be an official pipe ceremony. They say that it was a group from Standing Rock coming to UND to get some help on a project. The event was more of a photo op then a ceremony. They also say that President Starcher was very fond of wearing a headdress, and that there are many pictures in UND archives of President Starcher in a headdress. The NCAA discounted the pipe ceremony because there are so many disagreements about who, what and why. That is why they asked the tribes to provide written confirmation of any approval that had been given. Standing Rock refused to give the written confirmation. It was a group from Standing Rock that was supposed to have performed the ceremony, so it would make sense to most people that they would be the ones to decide if it was an official ceremony or not. That isn't up to the NCAA to decide. And they didn't have a legal obligation to do that. It is going to be hard for any court to make the NCAA look bad because they chose to believe the current government of Standing Rock over the variety of stories that are told about the ceremony.

Spirit Lake seems to be putting most of their eggs in one basket with the response to the NCAA request for dismissal of the lawsuit. According to the story they are using the pipe ceremony as the main basis of their case. They found a picture which includes one elder from Spirit Lake, which they claim makes Spirit Lake a party to the pipe ceremony. Maybe some of the legal minds on the board can provide some input. To me the pipe ceremony is difficult to prove because there are so many different versions of what did or did not happen, who was actually part of the group, and what was involved in the ceremony. The Tribal Council at Standing Rock claiming that it wasn't an official pipe ceremony will probably also be considered. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/232753/

I'm surprised, but that is great news for people all over the country.

Is that all it takes to distract you?

You can't negotiate with someone if they won't talk with you, or communicate with you in any way. Spirit Lake refused to talk with Kupchella in the days and months after the NCAA policy was announced. Standing Rock hasn't been willing to discuss the issue since 1992. They wouldn't return phone calls, e-mails or even attempts to set up meetings. Many attempts were made. Negotiations take back and forth communications and can't be done by one side. You also have a very difficult time negotiating when one side has everything they want. The NCAA has what they want out of the situation. UND has nothing to give back in the negotiations. You can't make a deal if you can't give something of value. The NCAA got what they wanted out of the settlement negotiations. They have repeatedly said that they don't plan to negotiate any further on this issue. Again, if one side doesn't want to negotiate, then you don't have the opportunity to hold a negotiation.

Fetch is very aware of this rule. He has been part of discussion about home games in the past. He doesn't feel that they are important, at least not as important as keeping the name. If you have been paying attention you would know that he posts off the wall things to agitate. I was just calling him on it. From his response you can tell that he didn't take it personally, and I didn't mean it personally.

The Spirit Lake lawsuit is very weak. And even if they have a chance to win parts of it, it will take several years at a minimum to win. A great deal of damage will happen to the UND athletic department during that time. UND doesn't have the time it would take to work the angles you are talking about. Especially since there isn't a high probability of success. This issue isn't because of 6 activists. The problem isn't just a UND issue. This is an NCAA edict that affected 18 schools. Plus a number of other schools changed their nicknames shortly before the NCAA got involved because of building pressure. The NCAA isn't going to change their policy just for UND. That would cause a great deal of anger and backlash from many of the other schools that have been affected. It would create a bad precedent for the NCAA. They aren't going to allow that. Anyone that believes they can negotiate with the NCAA on this issue hasn't paid attention to the NCAA in years past.

You and several others on this site, like Dave and Fetch, have said that you would rather allow the UND athletic department be completely destroyed rather than lose the nickname. That is the very definition of nickname-at-all-costs. The Big Sky conference has the right to get rid of UND if they want, and the ability to do that. None of us can predict whether it will happen or not. But it is a real possibility and UND needs to take that into consideration. It is a big risk to not consider it and would be irresponsible not to factor that risk into the equation. It would be bad business not to consider that when making decisions. We know that the NCAA won't change their position based on how they have handled this issue in the past and based on how they have handled a similar situation. We have a 7 year history of how they are approaching the Native American policy, and the only time they moved at all was to create the appeal process. Plus they have the law and the legal system on their side, although I know that you don't understand the legal system at all. The similar situation is the Confederate flag policy in South Carolina and Mississippi. Again they haven't moved off their position in over a decade in spite of the fact that the states have put their position into their state law. Does that sound familiar at all? The NCAA position is not hypothetical. The Minnesota and Wisconsin issue is not hypothetical either. The only way they have changed their policy in years is to adjust to fit with the NCAA policy. It makes it easier for everyone if they have a uniform policy. They are not going to change their policy back to allow them to play UND as long as UND is under sanctions. My question has always been, what would make anyone think that the NCAA and the schools like Minnesota will change their policies? There is nothing in history to give that impression. As a matter of fact, history indicates that the policy will probably expand to more schools and that eventually the NCAA will expand their policy to include more cultural names. It is a pipe dream for people to believe that the NCAA will back down.

Has Alcorn State been able to recruit athletes like that since the sanctions were put in place? Has that conference been relevant in the past decade? Sorry to hear that you have such low aspirations for UND football, oh wait, you don't really care about UND football.

If UND doesn't complete the transition, or if UND can't be a competitive program (like maybe because they can't host playoff games), then the Big Sky can and will kick UND out of the conference. If UND gets kicked out of the Big Sky Conference the football team will be eliminated within 3 to 5 years. Without a conference there aren't enough teams to play, there wouldn't be enough fans attending games and there wouldn't be enough money coming in to support the program. It will be just like Nebraska Omaha. It's too bad that you and the other nickname-at-all-cost people don't have the ability to understand the reality of the situation, or in the case of people like you, don't care enough about the program itself. You would rather destroy the program than lose the nickname.

Have you been sleeping or are you really stupid? One of the sanctions is not being able to host NCAA playoff games. The most obvious teams this can affect are the football team and the women's hockey team. UND could have the Number 1 ranked team in FCS football going into the playoffs and they would have to play the games on the road. UND will never host a playoff game in football as long as they are under sanctions. Of course if they are under sanctions very long they may not have a football team.

He's not the one asking the UND student athletes to give up advantages they may have earned, like a home field for the playoffs in football. You want the student athletes to give up something they have earned so that you don't have to give up a nickname and logo that you like.

Saturday morning is kind of a black hole in television. Very few people are watching so they fill the space with more niche stories. Not many big stories come out of Saturday mornings.

They can get lucky sometimes. Actually, some of them have had a much clearer picture of the entire issue than a lot of Fighting Sioux fans.

Why would she tarnish her reputation by getting involved in that fiasco. Everyone involved is getting muddy.

He also spends a lot of time in the name thread. Is that a pattern?

FSU has the approval to use the Seminole name and logo. It isn't a generic approval for everyone. UND doesn't have approval. UND doesn't have official approval to wear any Native American name or imagery in a NCAA tournament. Throwing away any chance to win a National Title to try to prove a point is beyond wrong. You want to ask the student athletes to throw away everything they have worked for pretty much all of their lives, and definitely everything they have worked for this season. Why don't you go over to Engelstad Arena and ask them yourselves if that is worth it.

Actually, homer has been saying that it is time to move on. He was trying to make a point replying to Chewey. Chewey said that the team should wear Florida State t-shirts under their jerseys to see if the NCAA would do anything. homer said that if you really want to make a point you might just as well wear the regular jersey and force the NCAA to do something. But he wasn't really advocating that the team should do that.

Exactly. But the end result, and the message, will be clear.

Probably either the 3rd or 4th wave of the process.

The NCAA can change the sanctions as long as they are consistent for all schools under sanctions. I'm pretty sure that sanctions are not spelled out in the settlement agreement, although I would have to go back and check to be absolutely positive. So the NCAA can create or change the sanctions associated with not following the Native American policy. That being said, I would be surprised if the NCAA made that change to be associated with the transition process. But as I said earlier, the NCAA could very well give extra special attention to all of the paperwork and procedures needed to finish the transition and could hold up the transition because something isn't done properly. We don't know if UND or Big Sky officials are concerned about this or not. NDSU officials expressed concerns about getting it right when they were finishing transition, so it probably isn't easy. That could easily tie into the Big Sky concerns that have been expressed in the past about UND being a quality member of the Big Sky. UND can't become a full member of the Big Sky until they become a full member of Division I, it says so right in the Big Sky bylaws.

UND has to complete a number of steps to finish the transition to Division I. It isn't just given to them. My guess is that the NCAA will go through the documents with a fine tooth comb. If they find anything that isn't right they can keep UND in transition. It doesn't mean that they will, but they could if they wanted to do that. And if UND is still in transition they can't be a full member of the Big Sky, which would give the conference a good excuse to vote UND out. Again, the Big Sky wouldn't have to do that, but they could. The transition will be done when the NCAA says it's done. Hopefully that's only about 100 days away.

If the team did that the television coverage would quickly transfer to Bristol, CT to the ESPN headquarters. The NCAA staff would probably not do anything on location. They would go back to Indianapolis and release a press release saying that UND had forfeited the title game. UND would have to pay back all travel expenses. Some people would get upset and there would probably be some newspaper articles and TV stories. Most of the country would ignore the story because it involves an unknown school and a sport that most people don't care about. The short uproar would die down. UND would go in the record books as losing the game. Recruits would think twice before attending UND because they were willing to give up a title. The NCAA would continue to do their thing and UND would continue on sanctions. Plus, the documents related to the conversion to Division I would probably get looked at extra carefully. UND is trying to finish the transition this summer and the NCAA would make sure that every i was dotted and t was crossed before giving final approval. If UND did not get that approval they would be thrown out of the Big Sky. That all sounds worth showing a logo for a couple of minutes after the game.

UND was only required to get approval from 1 tribe during the original appeal process. That was from 2005-2006. No tribes stepped up to give the approval. UND sued the NCAA. The NCAA required 2 tribes in the settlement, and in return gave UND an extra 3 years to get approval (actually 4 because of the time of the lawsuit) and the NCAA issued a statement that UND wasn't hostile and abusive. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the NCAA would give UND several extra years to get approval without getting something in return.

Fox North was the original owner of the rights to broadcast the Final Five. They purchased the rights from the WCHA. They could do what they wanted with the broadcast, depending of course on what was in the contract with the WCHA. The WCHA was probably happy to get all of the exposure it could get. This is a different situation because ESPN controls the national rights for the NCAA tournament. Fox North probably just purchased the rights to broadcast on their normal outlets, not on the expanded Fox College Sports networks. That being said, it is possible that Fox could have gotten the rights to include it on Fox College Sports (although I doubt it). And the agreement was just done today so it would not show up on television guides this early.