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If the NCAA eventually rests its exemptions only on endorsement by ALL tribal councils of the namesake tribe, then I want it to retract the "hostile and abusive" declaration and instead refer to the condemned usage as "unapproved" or "disapproved" or "unauthorized" or "unendorsed" or "nonconsensual." That's much more intellectually honest since, as I have previously argued, no "victim" of hostility and abuse can ever effectively consent to that kind of mistreatment.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the plan was for Chief Osceola to hand off the flaming spear to a "real Indian" who would then plant it midfield.

Scott-- We were having storm warnings here that interrupted the game. I wanted to see what changes, if any, were made to Chief Osceola's ritual but it was more important to keep the region informed about the weather. Can you describe the "Chief's" pre-game performance?

"The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree." As with the FSU exemption, this is key. While I would never accuse the NCAA of being slave to consistency, if the decision of the namesake tribe must be respected when it has chosen to endorse a school's use, then the converse--the decision must be respected when the namesake does not endorse use--must also obtain. I suspect this will be the ground the NCAA backpedalers cite when denying UND's appeal because we cannot put forward the same justification as did FSU, CMU and Utah. For me the whole exemption-based-upon-endorsement road is anathema to the NCAA's oft-repeated position that it believes usage of Indian imagery is hostile and abusive. If true, then no tribe could ever effectively consent to being subjected to hostility and abuse. And, yet, three tribes have chosen to endorse their abuse by the corresponding school and the NCAA has said, "That's good enough for us." Which is it, NCAA? It's always wrong or it's only sometimes wrong? It will be interesting to see what linguistic gymnastics the NCAA will use to deal with the instances when there is no existing, identifiable namesake tribe (e.g., Indians, Illini, Braves) to either grant or withhold approval.

Sioux-cia: St. Petersburg Times, for one, reports that Clough abstained because he didn't like the fact that the schools that were affected weren't represented at the meeting on Aug. 4 and could not make their case for non-inclusion on the hostile and abusive list. Since the FSU exemption, he has said he is pleased that the appeals process is available and appears to work.

Here's the link to Tim's bio: http://www.fightingsioux.com/sports/mhocke...?PLAYER_ID=3311

Every time I hear someone say that the word "Fighting" in our name or Illinois' is the problem, I want to hand them a dictionary and tell them "Look it up." Is the ONLY possible denotation for the word "using blows or weapons to achieve an advantage"? Being "warlike"? Punching someone? No. In our case, it means to struggle, to keep moving forward, to be tenacious, to keep trying, be determined. This part of the argument reminds me of the reaction a couple of years ago when somebody used the word "niggardly" in reference to the education budget and people decided they'd heard a racial slur uttered and went off the deep end. "My opponent is a well-known homo sapien and his wife is a thespian in the arts community." Sheesh! A newspaper's lifeblood is words. You'd think the Trib wouldn't be prone to so literal--and wrong-- an interpretation of this particular word.

FSU's president, T.K. Wetherell, faxed a lettter of appeal dated Aug. 12, 2005, to Myles Brand. This was about the same time Kupchella sent his letter requesting answers to his questions and asking to be sent the forms necessary to mount an appeal. You can read FSU's winning appeal letter at http://seminoles.collegesports.com/genrel/...scotletter.html And as long as you're there, click on the "Traditions" link on the left to see what other elements of FSU pageantry are given tacit NCAA approval. Please be sure to read about the mystical power of "The War Chant" (a.k.a. tomahawk chop with chant) and the pregame ritual of Chief Osceola and his appaloosa, Renegade.

PCM: Fix the link. That one takes the reader to your well-written, oft-cited opinion piece on USCHO. Way to increase readership!

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/trads/f...ds-osceola.html above link is the story of FSU mascot, Chief Osceola below link is to Illinois' story about its mascot, Chief Illiniwek: http://fightingillini.collegesports.com/tr...s-thechief.html Compare and contrast. How are they alike; how are they different? Discuss.

The tribal resolutions against the name definitely hurt UND's appeal. I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But, you go to war with the ammunition that you have. PCM wrote an opinion piece on USCHO detailing the case for walking the walk, comparing the opportunities for Native Americans at "hostile and abusive" UND vis a vis those at showcase schools like Iowa and Wisconsin ("we don't play teams with Indian names unless they're a member of the conference"). Actions, not words. Opportunities, not lipservice. That's what separates UND from other institutions, on the list or not.

I thought they touted the fact that the "study" preceding the ruling began 4 years ago. Who are they that it should take them so long to make a ruling dictated, they'd like us to think, by their respect for humanity?? I don't see how they can save face. Now, it's all about the damage control.

Nope, I don't see it. So, I used the X as in "delete" button on the bottom right side of my message. Oh....there it is! I didn't have my window set wide enough. Wider is better.

PCM: Well, wouldn't that "we-take-it-all-back" ruling require the NCAA to CHANGE its position on names/logos/mascots which, the release says, they HAVEN'T done (ROTFL), despite letting FSU off the hook? Instead, they could allow the original ruling to suffer death by 1,000 cuts (or more like, 18 exemptions) and then congratulate themselves on having forced all the hostile/abusive institutions to prove that each one is uniquely situated and worthy of an exemption. Sorry for correcting my post this way but I still cannot find the edit button.

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/genrel/...scotletter.html Above is a link to the letter of appeal FSU submitted to the NCAA.

NCAA's exemption for FSU, as justified in the press release, is as unprincipled as its abusive/hostile rule. The mind reels at the internal inconsistencies! If the use of nicknames/logos/mascots is dehumanizing, marginalizing and all other kinds of bad-izing, then no "victim" could ever effectively "consent" to their usage. I always thought this name game would come down to money+power. FSU and Illinois have it; UND probably doesn't have enough of it and lowly Southeastern Oklahoma (the Savages) for sure doesn't have it. The exceptions always swallow the rule. It remains to be seen how the remaining schools will manage to qualify for their exemption.

Advocating a scorched earth policy, out go Britons, Celtics (and Celts), Dutch and Dutchmen (Flying or otherwise), Gaels, Highlanders & Tartans, Hoosiers, Quakers (Hustlin' and otherwise), Fighting Irish, Ragin' Cajuns, Saxons, Scots (and Scotties), Sooners, Spartans, Swedes, Texans, Trojans, Vandals and Vikings. I'm sure there are some other hostile and offensive names I forgot.

http://starbulletin.com/2000/07/27/sports/story1.html Newspaper article from 5 years ago about the University of Hawaii's name and logo change. UH went from being the Rainbows to the Warriors for men's teams. Interesting read from the you can't please 'em all department. BTW, UH's use of the name Warriors and their native Hawaiian-themed logo deemed not hostile and abusive by NCAA but, as article shows, not everyone is so forgiving.

Yes, I am. I'm so old I was invited to PCM's mother's baby shower.

Add me to the list of card-carrying liberals (I cast my first vote for George McGovern in 1972), who are in favor of keeping the name. While I may not agree with most of the more conservative Siouxsports posters on other political issues--none of which, may I say, would be on-topic in this forum-- I am firmly in your camp on this one. PCM is right: the more the merrier.

How's this for irony? Based upon the pass the NCAA has given to San Diego State and to a dozen or so colleges still known as "Warriors" or "Braves," the Fighting Sioux could escape application of the ruling by calling themselves the "University of North Dakota Brave Warriors" and substituing an Aztec-styled logo for the one designed by Brien. Extinct Indian tribes merit no protection, according to NCAA logic, and the names "Braves" and "Warriors" are okey-dokey.

Sorry. The new name is University of West Georgia but the name is still "Braves."

The NCAA would like everyone to believe that, to avoid the type of NCAA ruling with which UND and other shcools are now faced, there was a stampede among colleges to change their Indian names/logo. Hardly. The ESPN.com story on the NCAA ruling lists 14 schols as having removed all referfences to Native American culture or being deemed not to refer to NA culture. The list includes UNC-Pembroke and 13 others. Only two have changed names: Stonehill (to Skyhawks) and SE Mo. State (to Redhawks). Two on the list are still known as "Braves" and the rest as "Warriors." If so inclined, you can google the schools, locate their current logos and judge for yourself how "Indian" they are or aren't. Warriors: Cal State Stanislaus, Lycoming, Winona State, Hawaii-Manoa, Wisconsin Lutheran (logo looks like a knight); E. Connecticut (logo is a mountain lion, maybe?), Merrimack, E. Stroudsburg. Braves: Husson, U. of Western Georgia (changed its institution's name but not that of its athletic teams).

To those of us engaging in and reading this lengthy debate, it should be obvious by now that the argument that the nickname "Fighting Sioux" and the logo are meant to bring honor to the Sioux people just ain't working. Proponents of the name: It's an honor. Opponents of the Name: Well, we don't feel honored. So, this is my argument, one I've used for many years now: Whatever had been UND's intent in the 1930s when it adopted the name "Fighting Sioux," whatever meaning and connotations we intended it have then, there is only one meaning now for the name "Fighting Sioux" and that is the athletic teams that compete for UND. It is the efforts, the achievements, the grit and determination of those individuals that have brought honor to the name they wear across their chests. They have instilled that name with value and meaning by fighting valiantly on their respective fields of play sometimes against great odds. When we fans emulate their style of dress by donning a jersey with the Fighting Sioux name and logo, we are honoring those athletes, past, present and future. Through a course of usage in the world of college sports, there's only one meaning for the name "Fighting Sioux" and thanks to the men and women who have competed under that name, it's a name of honor and respect, hard-earned and well-deserved.

Plain white, no trim, no nothin' except players' name and number (a la Beatles "White Album"). Or "black ice" version: Black, just black, all black except name & number (like Spinal Tap's "Smell the Glove" album).