UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 I agree the talent level is declining in DII but there are still some good teams. I will give you Mesa State as an average opponent. The other two are bottom feeders though. If UND would get a descent 11th game, I think this would really help out their playoff possibilities. Quality of opponents might mean a trip to the playoffs. Look at St. Cloud last year. They finished 9-2 and second in the NCC and didn't get invited. They played three under .500 non-conference teams last year. This year, St. Cloud is playing Pitt. State because of this. With Northern Colorado out of the conference, I think St. Cloud has to be considered the front runner to begin the season with Neb-Omaha, UND, and NDSU picked after (in no particular order). On paper, Newberry College would seem to be a weak opponent. But the ironic thing is, if you are judging the caliber of an opponent strictly by what their 2002 record was, wouldn't that mean NDSU's 2003 non-conference opponents should view 2-8 NDSU as a weak opponent this year, too? Central Washington was a good example of a team that appeared on paper to have been weak, but obviously was not. I'm not saying that Newberry or Mesa St. are going to be some kind of juggernaut, but on the other hand, we can't possibly know how good or bad they actually will be this year, either. I think that the relative strength or weakness of a non-conference schedule with regard to playoff positioning is overrated. If you play division II opponents and beat them, that's probably enough if, and this is a big "if," you take care of business in the conference. Unfortunately, now that the NSIC is apparently going to get a playoff team every year, you almost have to win the NCC and/or have only one loss in the regular season in order to make the playoffs. It's sad, but that's the way things are today. I must disagree with you about why St. Cloud didn't make the playoffs last year. Check out playoff team Central Missouri's non-conference schedule last season: Lincoln and Sterling (KS)! That's way worse than St. Cloud's was! The key is not losing more than once. That doesn't exactly provide much incentive for playing a brutal non-conference schedule, in my opinion. I would be satisfied with a happy medium of good-but-not-great opponents like Winona, New Haven, or perhaps a Great Lakes team (other than Grand Valley). Playing Montana and Cal-Davis is admirable, but unless NDSU goes at least 2-1 in its non-conference games, which is a tall order, they would probably have to win the NCC to get in. I don't claim that it's fair, but it's reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxrock Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 the bison are juts mad becuz they thought we would follow them but when tehy start to post 0-11 seasons and have 500 fans they come cryin back to the NCC and it owuld be funny if ncc dont let them in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverman Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Should I tell everyone what Newberry's nickname is? I wonder what "Lucy Gagme" will be doing this day? Maybe "Bad Eagle" would like to come for this game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Yes, NDSU would be viewed as a weak opponent until they can prove otherwise. This all you can base an opponent on is how they finished last year. I am not saying NDSU will be 2-8 this year but until proven otherwise I think NDSU is a weak opponent. A head coaching change, a new quarterback, and new wide receiver that have had much experience might prove otherwise but until they show it on the field, yes, NDSU would have to be classified as a weak opponent. The same can be said of UND, finishing 5-6. Until there are wins to prove it on the field, every team that finished below .500 has to be classified as weak opponent. Now, back to scheduling. Are you saying that since St. Cloud is playing a better Division II team, like Pitt. St. won't be good towards their playoff hopes? If St. Cloud would win that game, it would prove that the NCC should deserve two teams and the MAIC should get just one. By scheduling a team that has playoff history and winning, it will give you the edge should you finish in second place. Last year, both St. Cloud and C. Missouri scheduled poor out-of-conference opponents. It was hard to decide between two second place teams that schedule this way so the playoff committee had to go by total wins and losses. There just weren't any quality non-conference wins or close road losses that made the decsion easier. Had St. Cloud scheduled Pitt. St. last year, I think they would have made it if they played close or won. One more thing on the Sioux. Why wouldn't you schedule a top NSIC team instead of a bottom feeder like MN-Crookston? Last year, NDSU scheduled Winona, the winner of the league the year before. If UND had scheduled MN-Duluth or Winona St., I wouldn't have an complaints on the out-of-conference schedule if one of the top NSIC teams or one of the top MAIC teams was picked. It would also look good at the end of the year. I think the entire NCC (excluding NDSU and St. Cloud-this year) needs stronger out of conference scheduling. What looks good is winning against another good regional team or even out-of-region top team. It gives the playoff committee a reason to take a team with maybe an extra in-conference loss if teams from that conference won more games in the region then the other conference. It might back fire if the NCC would lose more then they win but there wouldn't be any complaints as to why the other conference received two teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Isn't this the first year of the six team per region playoff format? If so, the NCAA will probably just hand the first two teams in the NCC,NSIC, and MIAA a playoff spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Certainly I'm not saying that a win by St. Cloud over Pitt wouldn't bolster their playoff hopes. But by the same token, if they lose at Pitt, which is quite possible, I think it will hurt them far more than would two or three wins over the likes of Northern State or the other less-than-stellar teams St. Cloud played last year. As fans, we can talk all we want about how great it is to play a strong non-conference schedule. But if you happen to lose one or two of them and then ultimately lose a playoff spot to a team like Central Missouri who scheduled and beat two patsies, then what good was it to have that tough non-conference schedule? Yes, you will potentially be rewarded by beating an out-of-conference power. But if you lose, you will be equally punished. Whether it's worth the risk or not is up to each individual school. With regard to UND playing Crookston, I am not happy about it, either. I'm not going to try to defend it, but I don't know what difference it should make to a fan of another school who UND plays. No matter how bad you may think UND's non-conference schedule is, your team will have the opportunity to play the Sioux head-to-head and decide on the field who is more deserving potentially of a playoff spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 As a fan of a NCC team, I want the other teams in the conference to make the conference look good. NDSU has made the NCC look good across the country in past season by scheduling such top Division II teams as Pitt St., Texas A & M-Kingsville, Grand Valley St., Indiana of Pennsylvania, Delta St. of Mississippi, and Cal-Davis for its non-conference schedule over the past 10-12 years and winning most of these contests. I want the other teams in the conference to receive some more national creditability. St. Cloud has steped to the plate, in my opinion, in scheduling Pitt. St. this year. Yes, there are risks in scheduling such top notch opponents if you lose. But the benifits of the conference as a whole much outway the risks, in my opinion. But even if you lose, it gets you ready to play your best right away and gets you ready for top notch play in the conference. And if you win it makes you and your conference look good in the eyes of the national media. I am glad this is NDSU's last year of DII. We will have a similar schedule, I am sure next year and years beyond. What ever conference we get in will have quality non-conference schedules for playoff reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 As a fan of a NCC team, I want the other teams in the conference to make the conference look good. NDSU has made the NCC look good across the country in past season by scheduling such top Division II teams as Pitt St., Texas A & M-Kingsville, Grand Valley St., Indiana of Pennsylvania, Delta St. of Mississippi, and Cal-Davis for its non-conference schedule over the past 10-12 years and winning most of these contests. So are you saying that UND hasn't made the NCC look good over the years? I seem to vaguely remember a rather nice run by the Sioux just two years ago which made the NCC look pretty good. Quite frankly, if you make the playoffs you have ample opportunity to see how you stack up against teams from other conferences and/or regions. Getting there is the most important thing, and UND has done that as well or better than any NCC team over the past decade. I would prefer to play Pitt St. and Cal-Davis in November rather than September. I will stand by my opinion that while it's all well and good to play a very tough non-conference schedule, the margin for error for making the post season is so small that it may not be the wisest move if you have serious playoff aspirations. Unlike in basketball or most other sports, each loss in football is crucial and very difficult to make up for with such a limited number of games. St. Cloud just needed to beat Mankato last year in order to make the playoffs. Their non-conference schedule did not keep them out--the second loss did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 I am not saying UND didn't make the conference look good in the post season a couple of years ago or N. Colorado a couple of years before that or NDSU of the entire 1980s and 1990 but it doesn't help for this 2003 season for UND or any of the other teams in the conference to schedule pansies. It doesn't show that what the kind of conference it nationally this year if you don't play teams on the top side this year before the playoffs. There is no measuring stick for the conference against another conference if you don't play and the playoff committee will have decide just on record alone. By scheduling tougher teams, the committee is going to reward you as long as you perform well against those teams and have a strong conference showing. I am not saying that you should have all tough games. If you have one tough non-conference game against a tradional national power, the other game(s) could be an easier team(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 B.K.: I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. No offense intended, but if the Bison start out 1-2, I'd be interested to hear whether you still think it was a good idea to play a brutal non-conference schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMav Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 If UND and NDSU finish with identical records in the conference, who do you think the playoff committee is going to pick? A lot of red tape to get thru before Head-to-Head comes into play. 1. Strength of Schedule SSI. Division II only 2. W-L record Overall W-L Division II W-L overall Division II W-L Region Division II W-L Region Road Division II W-L Non-Conference 3. Record vs Ranked Teams last Regional Ranking 4. Results vs Non-Division II 5. Head to Head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if we do start 1-2. We are a Division II team playing two I-AA teams in Montana and Cal-Davis (first year in I-AA). Just as in I-AA play playing I-A , playing I-AA talent can only help you as far as playoffs are concerned, if I am not mistaken. But even if we lose these two games, it will tell what type of team we have and will ready us for the NCC play and for us, NDSU, tell us what we need to do to compete in I-AA. Northern Colorado would have went undefeated last year had they not played Montana but it will help them in the type of recruiting needed and in game stragies to compete at the I-AA level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 A lot of red tape to get thru before Head-to-Head comes into play. 1. Strength of Schedule SSI. Division II only 2. W-L record Overall W-L Division II W-L overall Division II W-L Region Division II W-L Region Road Division II W-L Non-Conference 3. Record vs Ranked Teams last Regional Ranking 4. Results vs Non-Division II 5. Head to Head. And we all know how committees love to follow these criteria. (See the thread discussing how NDSU was seeded ahead of UND in the womens basketball regional despite UND having an advantage in 4 of the 6 criteria while NDSU had the advantage in just 1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxrock Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 lets jsut hope the sioux and the bison both havew good seasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BisonMav Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 UND92,96 Posted on Mar 29 2003, 05:34 PM And we all know how committees love to follow these criteria. (See the thread discussing how NDSU was seeded ahead of UND in the womens basketball regional despite UND having an advantage in 4 of the 6 criteria while NDSU had the advantage in just 1). The point of the post was if NDSU and UND finish 8-3, and head-to-head UND wins. Would the committee pick UND 8-3 vs Division II or NDSU 8-1 vs Division II teams? It is not clear cut (head-to-head), who they would select for the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxrock Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 but lets face it, there is only one university that has the best in all sports in north dakota and that is UND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 It looks like to me that the strength of schedule is the #1 criteria along with the records are ahead of head to head. I agree with having this as the criteria. In college football, home field advantage plays a big role and since you only play once per year it takes this criteria to a lower extent. This takes the home field advantage out of play. You have to play well both away and at home the whole season but if two teams are tied, the strength of schedule would be a better tie breaker then the winner of the game if the winner was at home. In basketball, you get a home and a road game against an opponent. In football, you get just one game so in my opinion it is better to take an overall schedule strength especially between two conference teams that played the same conference teams with the win-loss record second before using the head to head tie-break. This also supports my position of playing a tough schedule instead of playing pansies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxrock Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 why play a tough schedule and go 0-3 when u can play pansies and go 3-0? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 lets jsut hope the sioux and the bison both havew good seasons That would be great. Siouxrock Posted on Mar 29 2003, 08:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but lets face it, there is only one university that has the best in all sports in north dakota and that is UND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Ultimately, strength of schedule is going to be determined primarily by how you do in the league. Central Missouri and Pitt St. have both made the playoffs in recent years with non-conference schedules that included NAIA opponents. But they did well in their league, so they made the playoffs anyway. So long as UND wins their three non-conference games, they will not be penalized at all by the fact that the opponents are probably going to have poor records. It's still going to come down to how they finish in the NCC that will determine whether they go to the playoffs or not. Keep in mind that with regard to strength of schedule, a win over UMC counts for more than a loss to Davis or Montana or any other high quality opponent. That's why it's such a risk to play these types of teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Actually, playing I-AA teams has no risks from what I understand. It will only help your cause. Just as many I-AA teams play I-A teams. I know is also a big payday for the lower division team but has not hurt their playoff chances. Look at McNeese State, a I-AA team of power, playing Nebraska last year. McNeese still was ranked as the top team in I-AA. With no risk, why not play a team of a higher division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Actually, playing I-AA teams has no risks from what I understand. It will only help your cause. Just as many I-AA teams play I-A teams. I know is also a big payday for the lower division team but has not hurt their playoff chances. Look at McNeese State, a I-AA team of power, playing Nebraska last year. McNeese still was ranked as the top team in I-AA. With no risk, why not play a team of a higher division. I'm afraid I can't agree that there's no risk. Power points (strength of schedule) are gathered by winning games. You still get points for losses, but only a relatively small number comparitively speaking. Therefore, unless you happen to win one of the higher division games, you are essentially giving away those power points that most other teams you are competing against for a playoff spot are accumulating. Again, this can be made up for against teams in your own conference by subsequently winning the league, but you can't really make up those points against a team from another league like the MIAA if they did not lose in their non-conference schedule. That's my point. If you win the league, then your non-conference losses probably won't hurt you much. But if you were to finish second in the league, then that second or third loss can be a big problem. That's why I feel it's a risk to "play up" when you're division II. I agree that it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem in I-AA because so many teams do it. Look at the records in a late season Top 20 poll and there's a lot of losses there. But in division II, and in particular in the Midwest Region, anything more than one loss puts your playoff hopes in serious jeopardy. I figure that the league schedule is tough enough without putting yourself at serious risk of losing one or more times during the non-conference schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison_Kent Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I will agree due to past selection committee playoff selections. They seem to not follow the rules of picking the four best teams in the region as set by the NCAA. By NCC middle teams beating the NSIC top teams, I don't see how the committee could ever pick a NSIC team even if they go undefeated in the conference. It seems UND92,96 you are correct that record alone is the standard set by the committee and the supposedly top catagory gets thrown out in the strength of schedule. I can't argue that point since it has happened in the past but it is not the criteria that the committee has set forth. But to add another topic. Lets get back to have the top 16 teams in the NCAA playoffs like it used to be instead of this stupid regional system. Keep the top seeds in their respective region, if possible (there might be two top teams in the same region and one would have to move) and keep first round match-ups as close as possible, like the NCAA Division I tournament where it might be seed 1 against 15 and 2 against 16 if the traveling made better sense. People would say that travel would be so much more because this but most teams have to fly anyway. Is it that much more to fly to Kansas or Missouri then it would be to go to Texas or Mississippi or Pennslyvania? The fan support of the road team would be the same reqardless. This way, the NCC would have two team minimum every year in the playoffs and most times three. Also, the number 1 and number 2 ranked teams would meet in the championship game and not the quarterfinals as has happened in the past. Look back to 1992 when NDSU and Pitt. St played an epic battle when they were ranked 1-2. If this would have been the championship game instead of the quarterfinals, it would be talked about as one of the top championship games of all time and not forgotten about by non-NDSU and non-Pitt loyalists as it was just aquarterfinal match-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxrock Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 That would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 But to add another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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