Outside the Lines

[ESPNInsider]

Coming up in a couple minutes. They just showed the Logo and the arena. Going to talk about the issue at length. Everyones probably sleeping already though. I'm still up. Check it out if you are too.

[Blackheart]

Coming up in a couple minutes.  They just showed the Logo and the arena.  Going to talk about the issue at length.  Everyones probably sleeping already though.  I'm still up.  Check it out if you are too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

christ...I caught the last two minutes of it and all they could talk about is how a Division 3 school did not have a chance to get an exception from the NCAA...Sounds like they did their typical due diligence and research on UND...no clue whatsoever...

[PCM]

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I saw most of the report, but not all of it. Overall, I thought it was fairly well done. Based on the statement they showed from the NCAA, I'd say that UND's appeal doesn't have much of a chance.

The one problem I have with this show and others like it is that people are quoted as saying, "Many Native Americans are offended by this." As was the case tonight, the people making the statements aren't Native Americans. The question is never asked: How many is "many"? The polls showing that a large majority of Native Americans aren't offended are seldom mentioned.

I think this tends to give people who aren't familiar with the issue a skewed view because they assume that "many" means "most."

[Uncle_Rico]

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I saw most of the report, but not all of it. Overall, I thought it was fairly well done. Based on the statement they showed from the NCAA, I'd say that UND's appeal doesn't have much of a chance.

The one problem I have with this show and others like it is that people are quoted as saying, "Many Native Americans are offended by this." As was the case tonight, the people making the statements aren't Native Americans. The question is never asked: How many is "many"? The polls showing that a large majority of Native Americans aren't offended are seldom mentioned.

I think this tends to give people who aren't familiar with the issue a skewed view because they assume that "many" means "most."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

About 5 minutes into the program they had an interview with a member of the Seminole Tribal Council saying he was tired of None-American Indians telling them what is offensive.

[PCM]

About 5 minutes into the program they had an interview with a member of the Seminole Tribal Council saying he was tired of None-American Indians telling them what is offensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's about where I started watching. Did they say much about UND other than showing the Ralph and a short clip of the hockey team?

[Uncle_Rico]

That's about where I started watching. Did they say much about UND other than showing the Ralph and a short clip of the hockey team?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, they just said UND was on the list.

[GrahamKracker]

Thanks for the heads-up. I think I saw most of the report, but not all of it. Overall, I thought it was fairly well done. Based on the statement they showed from the NCAA, I'd say that UND's appeal doesn't have much of a chance.

The one problem I have with this show and others like it is that people are quoted as saying, "Many Native Americans are offended by this." As was the case tonight, the people making the statements aren't Native Americans. The question is never asked: How many is "many"? The polls showing that a large majority of Native Americans aren't offended are seldom mentioned.

I think this tends to give people who aren't familiar with the issue a skewed view because they assume that "many" means "most."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

www.ncai.org Check it out. These are the leaders of the Indian communities all across this country, all 500+ Federally Recognized Tribes, and they are not controlled by extreme Leftist liberals, AIM, or some conspiracy. This group is made up of people elected by their own. So say what you will. We know better.

[PCM]

www.ncai.org  Check it out.  These are the leaders of the Indian communities all across this country, all 500+ Federally Recognized Tribes, and they are not controlled by extreme Leftist liberals, AIM, or some conspiracy.  This group is made up of people elected by their own.  So say what you will.  We know better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That has nothing to do with my point. Try again.

[GrahamKracker]

[PCM]

I don't see your "point" then, because the National Congress of American Indians has spoken.  What more do you want?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just as you are not all Sioux, that organization is not all American Indians. The National Congress of American Indians obviously doesn't represent the views of the Seminole tribes in Florida and Oklahoma or the Chippewa tribes of Michigan and North Dakota or the Ute tribe of Utah. Apparently they haven't spoken for the American Indians in North Carolina who support UNC-Pembroke. And we have yet to learn if they speak for the Spirit Lake Sioux.

Therefore, my point is that while "many" American Indians may indeed oppose the use of tribal names and imagery by sports teams, the question of "relative to what?" is rarely asked. Certainly not all American Indians feel this way and the best available evidence indicates that most don't.

[mksioux]

Based on the statement they showed from the NCAA, I'd say that UND's appeal doesn't have much of a chance.

Please elaborate.

[PCM]

Please elaborate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NCAA refused to allow anyone from their organization to be interviewed for the show, which I thought was interesting because they were a sponsor. The NCAA did release a written statement which, to me, appeared to be more strongly worded than what they've said recently.

I could be wrong, but to me, the statement indicated that ALL namesake tribes must to agree to the use of their name. In other words, it doesn't matter whether or not Spirit Lake approves of UND's use of Fighting Sioux. As long as any Sioux tribe opposes it, the NCAA will oppose it.

Perhaps someone who recorded the show could provide the NCAA statement or confirm my impression of what it said. I just remember reading it and thinking, "Uh oh. That's not good."

[ESPNInsider]

The piece didn't talk much about UND, but what I did get out of it is along the lines of what PCM said. It didn't sound good for those who either, don't have the full vocal support of tribes or aren't a highly powerful D-I school.

Doesn't look good.

As for the talk about a DIII school, they were not referring to UND so don't get upset about that. The question was just being asked if a DIII school would have much of a chance. The columnist from D.C. said probably not.

[HockeyMom]

Based on the statement they showed from the NCAA, I'd say that UND's appeal doesn't have much of a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bring on the lawsuit then!!!!!!!

[PCM]

As for the talk about a DIII school, they were not referring to UND so don't get upset about that.  The question was just being asked if a DIII school would have much of a chance.  The columnist from D.C. said probably not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was Juan Williams, and I actually liked what he said. To paraphrase, he said that the big-name, big-money schools have already gotten exemptions because of the money and political pressure they can bring to bear. The smaller, non-DI schools will be stuck because they don't have the resources or political muscle of the big schools.

This makes the NCAA look like a hypocritical bully, which is exactly what I'd hoped people would see. Considering that Williams usually espouses the liberal viewpoint, the fact that he sees it and says it works to UND's advantage.

[Brent_Bobyck]

Coming up in a couple minutes.

[ESPNInsider]

They did talk about something that I have agreed with, but have not posted yet though. If it does come down to UND fighting for the name saying, as some on here have posted, that the tribes don't own the name so we should be free to use it, that is just wrong. I believe it was still Mr. Williams that was talking about it, saying that people on message boards and fans of these teams are claiming that no one has ownership of these names so they are free to use. I thought maybe Mr. Williams had popped into ss.com. (Hopefully he is not SiouxFootballField ) UND can appeal the ruling, but if that meeting does not go well today and the tribes are against it then I would want UND to stop the fight.

The reason I have been against the change in the past is that there has been no "clear" tribal objection to the name. Maybe that is because the media has kept that out of the papers and off the news, or maybe it's that they don't have one and the stuff that does come out is drummed up by only a few vocal minority.

Hopefully today's meetings can clear some things up and maybe even start to solidify a strong relationship with the Sioux tribes. Watching last night, you could see the pride that the Seminole tribe has for the use of the name at FSU. They are involved in the decision for Osceola's clothing and many other aspects of the use of the name. Maybe UND and the Sioux tribes can start to build a relationship that someday would resemble that of FSU's. Now that would be progress!

[ESPNInsider]

[PCM]

Bring on the lawsuit then!!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd take a win in court over an NCAA exemption any day of the week.

[PCM]

The reason I have been against the change in the past is that there has been no "clear" tribal objection to the name.

That's news to me.

[ESPNInsider]

That's news to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, what I mean is there has been no publicized vote or poll saying that the tribes have a majority against the use of the name. I know there have been letters written by some tribal leaders, but you saw what happened with the letter written by the tribal leader from Oklahoma. In the words of Sir Mix A Lot... Giddy up U-turn

[HockeyMom]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd take a win in court over an NCAA exemption any day of the week.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with you on that one.

[HockeyMom]

Sorry, what I mean is there has been no publicized vote or poll saying that the tribes have a majority against the use of the name.  I know there have been letters written by some tribal leaders, but you saw what happened with the letter written by the tribal leader from Oklahoma.  In the words of Sir Mix A Lot... Giddy up U-turn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Seminole Tribe in Oklahoma was in favor of Florida State using the Seminole name. They voted 18-2 to shoot down a measure calling for FSU to not use the name. (When was that June of 2005, 2004? I can't remember) The NCAA was wrong in saying that the tribe in Oklahoma opposed the nickname.

[ESPNInsider]

[jimdahl]

That was Juan Williams, and I actually liked what he said. To paraphrase, he said that the big-name, big-money schools have already gotten exemptions because of the money and political pressure they can bring to bear. The smaller, non-DI schools will be stuck because they don't have the resources or political muscle of the big schools.