specifics Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 Your entire post contradicted itself. You tell people to quit putting their hometown teams first and have an unbiased opinion, then you go and put four Grafton players on the list. Kringstad isn't one of the top three goalies in the state, let alone the best. My mistake. I forgot about Michael Hillman from Bismarck. He stood on his head against South and from what I've heard he's done that a few times this season. Soohockey15 I'm not from Grafton. The only mistake on that list was Kringstad. You can't honestly believe that either of the Campells are not good enough to be on that list. Peterson does not get enough credit as it is. He is one of the elite defenders in the state and there is no denying that. Someone has to be from Grafton to think 3 of the best players in the state can come from there and not Grand Forks? Come on. Quote
QB Eagles #7 Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 If you want to put up the stats for only the "big" games for goalies, then maybe we should do it for position players as well. So do you all think the Campbell's deserve no consideration because they have 0 points against FSH and RR? All-state and Mr Hockey are season long awards and the one stat that we can compare goalies stats with is save percentage, you can say it hurts to have bad defenseman but in when you only see 15-20 shots a game such as Deichert or Rosendahl it makes it that much more impressive to see there %'s at the top of the state. There is no room for error when you see that few of shots, so you can fight for guys like Kringstad as much as you want but right now Rosendahl and Deichert are head and shoulders above the competition, including Hillman. Even though Hillman has been impressive in a few games, SO FAR overall there is no comparison because they have the top 2 GAAs, top 2 save %'s, and they are on the undoubtedly top 2 teams in the state. Quote
crosby_87 Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 If you want to put up the stats for only the "big" games for goalies, then maybe we should do it for position players as well. So do you all think the Campbell's deserve no consideration because they have 0 points against FSH and RR? All-state and Mr Hockey are season long awards and the one stat that we can compare goalies stats with is save percentage, you can say it hurts to have bad defenseman but in when you only see 15-20 shots a game such as Deichert or Rosendahl it makes it that much more impressive to see there %'s at the top of the state. There is no room for error when you see that few of shots, so you can fight for guys like Kringstad as much as you want but right now Rosendahl and Deichert are head and shoulders above the competition, including Hillman. Even though Hillman has been impressive in a few games, SO FAR overall there is no comparison because they have the top 2 GAAs, top 2 save %'s, and they are on the undoubtedly top 2 teams in the state. Just giving you an idea, but did you consider the "type" of shots that goalies like Deichert face every game. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that even though he sees 15-20 shots a game, i bet 75% of those shots are harmless shots from the perimeter. I shouldn't say harmless, maybe "not as dangerous". I would bet that Deichert and Rosendahl see only 5 or so point blank chances per game. That is not a knock on those two at all, it is a tribute to how good their defense in front of them is. You can't just go on stats alone and who's on the best team. Take, for example, Marty Brodeur. He is on a below average team, and his stats aren't the best. But don't kid yourselves and say he can't steal a game for his team, because every time he plays, there's a chance he can. I don't know if that was the best example though . Anyways, from the 5 or so games i've seen Hillman play this year, I don't really understand how incredibly good Rosendahl and Deichert must be to be considered "Head and shoulders" above him. Quote
dumndummer Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 I would say there is no question that Deichert, Rosendahl, Kringstad and Hillman all should be considered in the discussion of best goalies. But how do you determine the best? If you look at statistics to compare the best forwards ie, Weisgarber and Campbells then why not look at statistics for the goalies? Right now that means Deichert and Rosendahl have the edge. Quote
ND Hockey Guy Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 I think people are overlooking Minot's goalie David Bown. (not Brown) He's currently 3rd in G.A.A. (down to 1.44 after the Bismarck High game), ... better than Michael Hillman's 2.33 and Tony Kringstad's 2.45. Bown has 4 shutouts, including back-to-back against Bismarck Century and Bismarck High. Hillman is a great goalie no doubt ... but the best goalie on the ice the other night between Minot and Bismarck was David Bown. Congrats also, on a nice season, to Danny Groves from Devils Lake. The kid is only a sophomore. If you've seen him play you know what I'm talking about ... plays the angles well, not afraid to play the puck out of the net, and very quick. Fun to watch. Devils Lake could play spoiler in the first round at the State Tournament if Groves is on his game. And yes, before the East fans chime in ... Deichert and Rosendahl are # 1 and # 2. Quote
hockeyman25 Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 I think people are overlooking Minot's goalie David Bown. (not Brown) He's currently 3rd in G.A.A. (down to 1.44 after the Bismarck High game), ... better than Michael Hillman's 2.33 and Tony Kringstad's 2.45. Bown has 4 shutouts, including back-to-back against Bismarck Century and Bismarck High. Hillman is a great goalie no doubt ... but the best goalie on the ice the other night between Minot and Bismarck was David Bown. Congrats also, on a nice season, to Danny Groves from Devils Lake. The kid is only a sophomore. If you've seen him play you know what I'm talking about ... plays the angles well, not afraid to play the puck out of the net, and very quick. Fun to watch. Devils Lake could play spoiler in the first round at the State Tournament if Groves is on his game. And yes, before the East fans chime in ... Deichert and Rosendahl are # 1 and # 2. No west team has a chance at winning their first game. Quote
crosby_87 Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 Why does every good debate, regardless of the topic, end in "West hockey sucks, and east will win all 4 opening round games this year". Regardless if it's true or not, for god's sakes people don't chime in if all you're going to say is something stupid like that. Yes we all know the east is way better then the west, but i DO NOT care about that right now. Quote
ND Pride Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 If you want to put up the stats for only the "big" games for goalies, then maybe we should do it for position players as well. So do you all think the Campbell's deserve no consideration because they have 0 points against FSH and RR? All-state and Mr Hockey are season long awards and the one stat that we can compare goalies stats with is save percentage, you can say it hurts to have bad defenseman but in when you only see 15-20 shots a game such as Deichert or Rosendahl it makes it that much more impressive to see there %'s at the top of the state. There is no room for error when you see that few of shots, so you can fight for guys like Kringstad as much as you want but right now Rosendahl and Deichert are head and shoulders above the competition, including Hillman. Even though Hillman has been impressive in a few games, SO FAR overall there is no comparison because they have the top 2 GAAs, top 2 save %'s, and they are on the undoubtedly top 2 teams in the state. The calculation of stats for big games was purely an exercise designed to provide some insight into the performance of the goalies. To make conclusions you need a lot of information and the "big" game stat was simply an exercise. As I said, if you combine stats for 4 to 6 "big" games then that can help in making conclusions as well - as long as some meaningful differences emerge. You could run a similar analysis for players, as you suggest, but you would need a stack of game sheets to do that - or all of the newspaper box scores and that would be a lot of work. I have no vested interest in who is the best goalie in the state - I don't really care - it is interesting, however, to make sure each player gets a fair review. Sometimes stats can help with that, and other times the do not help as the differences are not meaningful enough. Honestly, from what I have seen in terms of stats and seeing Deichert and Rosendahl play many times this season and Hilllman once - I can't see how one can be singled out at this time. They are all good. Wait until the pressure of the region tournaments develops and ultimately state - it will take that long to really determine who is the best. One final note on Hillman - I think there is a good comparison to Deichert and Rosendahl. Hillman has a 92% save percentage on a team that is not that strong. I think it is up for honest debate that he might be the best goalie in the state and would have stats as good as the other two if he were on teams with that quality. It is still too early to tell - but interesting to discuss with an open mind. Quote
ND Pride Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Just giving you an idea, but did you consider the "type" of shots that goalies like Deichert face every game. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that even though he sees 15-20 shots a game, i bet 75% of those shots are harmless shots from the perimeter. I shouldn't say harmless, maybe "not as dangerous". I would bet that Deichert and Rosendahl see only 5 or so point blank chances per game. That is not a knock on those two at all, it is a tribute to how good their defense in front of them is. You can't just go on stats alone and who's on the best team. Take, for example, Marty Brodeur. He is on a below average team, and his stats aren't the best. But don't kid yourselves and say he can't steal a game for his team, because every time he plays, there's a chance he can. I don't know if that was the best example though . Anyways, from the 5 or so games i've seen Hillman play this year, I don't really understand how incredibly good Rosendahl and Deichert must be to be considered "Head and shoulders" above him. Crosby 87 you really hit the nail on the head. QB Eagles#7 makes a good point about the margin of error being lower when there are fewer shots but as you point out - with forwards who play well on the defensive end and excellent defensemen the quality of shot is typically going to go down thus the saves that goalies on those teams make can be more routine and less challenging. That is why Hillman's performance stands out against all other goalies this season. He turned away a lot of shots as well as a lot of quality shots. I agree with Crosby87 that you cannot go by stats alone and in fact, that is why I analyze stats more thoroughly - often the surface statistics give the wrong impression. It would be great to see Rosendahl and Deichert in games where they get peppered like Hillman did so we can see how well they would do. Deichert played against Moorhead and stopped 20 of 24 shots for a save percentage of 83.3%. Rosendahl helped keep Red River in a 2-1 game with South but only faced 26 shots. I doubt that Rosendahl will be seriously challenged until they play South again. If Rosendahl is going to be labeled as the best goalie when the season is over I think it will come down to how well he does against South and they may play four times this season. The Grafton and Central games might factor in too. Quote
ND Pride Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I think people are overlooking Minot's goalie David Bown. (not Brown) He's currently 3rd in G.A.A. (down to 1.44 after the Bismarck High game), ... better than Michael Hillman's 2.33 and Tony Kringstad's 2.45. Bown has 4 shutouts, including back-to-back against Bismarck Century and Bismarck High. Hillman is a great goalie no doubt ... but the best goalie on the ice the other night between Minot and Bismarck was David Bown. Congrats also, on a nice season, to Danny Groves from Devils Lake. The kid is only a sophomore. If you've seen him play you know what I'm talking about ... plays the angles well, not afraid to play the puck out of the net, and very quick. Fun to watch. Devils Lake could play spoiler in the first round at the State Tournament if Groves is on his game. And yes, before the East fans chime in ... Deichert and Rosendahl are # 1 and # 2. It is good to direct some attention to other goalies who are doing well. Bown has been overlooked. Hard to compare goalies, however, when you don't get a change to see all of them play. The way to answer the question would be to have a panel of 3 professional goalie coaches watch the top candidates play and make a decision based on that review. It is impractical and will never happen but that could resolve the issue of who is best. Quote
specifics Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 The calculation of stats for big games was purely an exercise designed to provide some insight into the performance of the goalies. To make conclusions you need a lot of information and the "big" game stat was simply an exercise. As I said, if you combine stats for 4 to 6 "big" games then that can help in making conclusions as well - as long as some meaningful differences emerge. You could run a similar analysis for players, as you suggest, but you would need a stack of game sheets to do that - or all of the newspaper box scores and that would be a lot of work. I have no vested interest in who is the best goalie in the state - I don't really care - it is interesting, however, to make sure each player gets a fair review. Sometimes stats can help with that, and other times the do not help as the differences are not meaningful enough. Honestly, from what I have seen in terms of stats and seeing Deichert and Rosendahl play many times this season and Hilllman once - I can't see how one can be singled out at this time. They are all good. Wait until the pressure of the region tournaments develops and ultimately state - it will take that long to really determine who is the best. One final note on Hillman - I think there is a good comparison to Deichert and Rosendahl. Hillman has a 92% save percentage on a team that is not that strong. I think it is up for honest debate that he might be the best goalie in the state and would have stats as good as the other two if he were on teams with that quality. It is still too early to tell - but interesting to discuss with an open mind. Goalie stats, forward stats, defenseman stats, etc. are only an arrow in the direction of how someone plays. It's the team that gets players 70 points or a goalie a 1.87 GAA. Nothing against any of those goalies that are on top ranked teams but, put them on Wahpeton's roster or Devil's Lake even. I doubt we would be singing such praises for them if they werent on a top 2-3 team. Obviously these are extreme case examples. Let's say Tom Campell plays for North. Great player, but I doubt he hits 25 point this early in the season with that team. At this point in time I can't say I've seen or heard of Diechert or Rosendahl winning a game for their team that they should not have. Maybe I'm wrong. But Hillman has kept his team in games that Bismarck should never have been in. Quote
X2theZ Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Goalie stats, forward stats, defenseman stats, etc. are only an arrow in the direction of how someone plays. It's the team that gets players 70 points or a goalie a 1.87 GAA. Nothing against any of those goalies that are on top ranked teams but, put them on Wahpeton's roster or Devil's Lake even. I doubt we would be singing such praises for them if they werent on a top 2-3 team. Obviously these are extreme case examples. Let's say Tom Campell plays for North. Great player, but I doubt he hits 25 point this early in the season with that team. At this point in time I can't say I've seen or heard of Diechert or Rosendahl winning a game for their team that they should not have. Maybe I'm wrong. But Hillman has kept his team in games that Bismarck should never have been in. Here's two Great Questions you need to ask when talking about Mr. Hockey..... What was his work ethic like this summer? Was he surpassed by a forward with more drive to get the next level? Maybe. Maybe not. Quote
ND Pride Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 It is a great question but I don't think all of the evaluators who vote on those awards are all aware of work ethic in the summer for every player nominated. Besides, as much as I respect what you have said about work ethic - and I do believe that a summer work ethic is critical - the awards are given based on performance on the ice during the hockey season. I don't think we are necessarily talking about Mr. Hockey - just about who the best players are at their position. That might lead to a Mr. Hockey nomination. Quote
STARS9 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Anybody hear anything from the Grafton/Devils Lake game? Quote
STARS9 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Grafton tied Devils Lake 2-2. Wow that kind of surprises me. Was the game as close as the score indicated or did DL's goalie stand on his head? Quote
Skate_For_State Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I wasnt at the game, but my friend called and told me that DL played well and seemed to keep up with grafton. Quote
He Who Shoots Top Shelf Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 North Dakota vs. Minnesota Part Deux I'm claiming this as the second big non-tournament meeting between a quality ND team and a quality MN team. So far us NoDakers have a 1-0 advantage thanks to Fargo South. Roseau and Red River get to battle it out tomorrow night any predictions. Plus Thursday big night in the EDC with GPR and WF squaring off in their first meeting of the year. Probably a must win for either team if they want the 3 seed heading into tournament time. Quote
hockeyman25 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I know im kind of getting ahead on this, but lets start the predictions for FS vs. RR on Saturday Quote
WWPKD Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I know im kind of getting ahead on this, but lets start the predictions for FS vs. RR on Saturday I see a low scoring, hard hitting game with the team that has the best special teams coming out on top. Quote
He Who Shoots Top Shelf Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 Maybe we should just flip a coin instead? This one can go either way look for it to be a 2-1, or 1-0 game. The most goals Red River has allowed this year in a game is 3, the most South has surrendered is 4 and that was to mighty Moorhead. Also this game will display two of the best powerplay's I've seen in a long time. Should be a great game to watch. Quote
STARS9 Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I see a low scoring, hard hitting game with the team that has the best special teams coming out on top. I agree, but from my sources, South has given up only two pp goals this year and both coming against good MN teams. This will be a very good game but I think RR will have a tough time scoring. South wins 2 - 0. Quote
He Who Shoots Top Shelf Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 I agree, but from my sources, South has given up only two pp goals this year and both coming against good MN teams. This will be a very good game but I think RR will have a tough time scoring. South wins 2 - 0. I'm gonna have to disagree, Deichert fights the puck enough to where I think Red River will slip 2 by him and get the hard fought W. Quote
dumndummer Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 As the season progresses and gets closer to postseason, one thing that can change the outlook is injuries. Since The Forum only prints out daily injury reports for Moorhead, does any team have a major injury that might change things. I heard that Doeden from South got hurt and is out for awhile, might miss red river game. Quote
specifics Posted January 17, 2006 Posted January 17, 2006 As the season progresses and gets closer to postseason, one thing that can change the outlook is injuries. Since The Forum only prints out daily injury reports for Moorhead, does any team have a major injury that might change things. I heard that Doeden from South got hurt and is out for awhile, might miss red river game. I can't say I know of any injuries for either team. I do know that if Red River wants to win this game they have to get their rebounds. Go to the net hard after every shot and the odds they win this game increases greatly. Even though South is superb on the PK, they need to stay out of the box. Likewise for Red River, South is too good 5 on 4. If Red River lets South play a man up it will kill any momentum Red River has. Does Red River still put Mihulka in the slot for a one timer on the PP? If so, South is going to have to pick up on that fast or they might find themselves down a goal early. I'm going to give South the edge on this one. 3-1. Quote
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