Sioux Falls Argus-Leader Editorial

[jimdahl]

Another timely Argus Leader editorial. Once again, I'll break my own copyright rules and repost it because they remove them pretty quickly. Original source: http://www.argusleader.com/sports/Wednesda...yarticle2.shtml

Finding a conference the next hurdle for SDSU

Stu Whitney

Argus Leader

published: 10/23/2002

Public forum offers little resistance to Division I move

South Dakota State athletic director Fred Oien did not enter Tuesday night's public forum on Division I athletics with a backup of burly bodyguards.

That was the first surprise.

Given Oien's recent dismissal of the University of South Dakota and Augustana as reliable rivals, it wouldn't have been outrageous to see him seeking shelter in the Holiday Inn City Centre lobby, dodging a barrage of rotten fruit.

As SDSU draws closer to announcing its plan to elevate its sports teams to Division I status -

[The Sicatoka]

"We'd like to maintain our I-90 rivalry with North Dakota State," said Oien.

I-90? I believe someone needs a new road map.

[star2city]

The following story by Hod Nielsen from the Yankton Press and Dakotan was published shortly after NDSU's Division I announcement.

Defection Of NDSU From D-II To D-I No Surprise To NCC Followers

The following quotes were especially inciteful.

There are two words that describe the two schools' (UNC and NDSU) defection -- ego and money -- and there are a couple of other words that loom large in slowing their ambitions -- geography and population.

Whether the folks and NDSU and the North Dakota Chambers of Commerce will admit it or not, North Dakota State is no prize to add to anyone's football or basketball schedule.

If it had stated the 'Fargo' rather than 'North Dakota' Chamber of Commerce, Nielsen would have hit a bullseye.

However, Mr. Nielsen does not mention how UND's Engelstad Arena, its hockey program, and its recent football (a sport which was supposed to be owned by NDSU) and overall athletic success have forced the NDSU athletic program to attempt to significantly differentiate itself from UND's from a marketing standpoint. UND has been too successful and too blessed. NDSU had to move out of the 'NCC neighborhood', as NDSU leadership was being overwhelmed with envy toward it northen neighbor. Knowing that UND President Kupchella would maintain his word and not follow NDSU only emboldened NDSU to make the break. Even with a high known risk that no Division I conference would offer an invitation, NDSU leadership made the change so they would be at a 'higher' level and avoid the comparisons to UND. Isn't there a Proverbs that goes something like "Pride goeth before destruction"?

I'm certain that some NDSU supporters would describe the above as 'cynical', but these views have been expressed by NDSU graduates. If a conference agreement is not reached by next September for the 2004-5 season, the cynics will need to be given another name. I do wish NDSU well, both in its athletic department and in key research areas such as its nanotechnology initiatives, and that concern is why these issues need to be exposed.

[tony]

I get tired of people wishing NDSU well and then in the next breath saying how our motivations are unworthy. Rather than having to rely on anecdotal evidence, I'll tell you exactly what I think about the issue with no spin and with complete honesty.

First, it wasn't UND the spelled the end of NDSU in the DII, it was the NSIC. Since the NSIC has moved up to DII, we've now got about 20 DII schools in the tri-state. If you view the NCAA classification as a market segment, then DII is a lot more crowded, and the new schools aren't much like NCC schools - definitely not state flagships. By going DI, NDSU suddenly finds itself as one of only three DI football-playing schools in MN, ND, WI, and SD. It seemed like a good way to differentiate NDSU from the pack.

Second, if the survey of likely financial supporters of NDSU's move had come back negatively, I wouldn't have supported the move. It's going to be tough to make it in DI and I was glad that the survey asked if our continued financial support was dependent on winning seasons. The survey gave me a chance to answer without considering whether there were enough other people supporting the move.

Third, it was time to decide one way or another whether NDSU was going to go DI. Ever since DI-AA was formed, NDSU has been talking about going DI. 25 years of talking is too much.

Fourth, NDSU's football team is the engine that drives NDSU sports and NDSU isn't doing well in DII football (even before this year's season). They're winning about 75-80% of their games and they've made it to the playoffs a couple times in the last few years. There are very few programs that are having that kind of success and most of them don't have NDSU's competition. NDSU, the media, and the fans are holding the FB team to a nearly impossible standard - a standard that no team with NDSU's competition can possibly maintain. I wanted NDSU to be the underdog again and to scratch their way back to the top because it's a lot more motivating to be the underdog than being the prohibitive favorite all the time. I've never believed that DI-AA football is much better than DII football at all in the first place so I figured that most good Bison teams could match up with most DI-AA teams already. It follows that adding 27 scholarships might just push NDSU over the top.

Fifth, there's the NCAA. I thought that NDSU would benefit from the higher standards that DI demands from recruits, even though they'll have to bypass recruits that they could have gone after before. I also knew that the NCAA was talking about reorganization and thought that being in DI would give NDSU the most options in the event of significant changes. I hate DII's regionalized format, I thought NDSU got screwed when they got sent down to Mississippi in 2000 (and that wasn't the first time), and I figured that the NSIC was going to start getting into the playoffs every year. What's a recruit supposed to think when Winona makes the playoffs and NDSU doesn't? DII had yet to show that they had a long-term plan. To me it seemed likely that we'd have four or more new-from-NAIA conferences join DII by 2005 and that they'd all demand to get into the playoffs in all sports - with the same tactic that's been used before, "either get us into the playoffs or we'll level the playing field (ie reduce scholarships). Maybe DII can navigate those waters, but they've yet to show they have what it takes.

Sixth, there's the little perks that make recruiting easier. NDSU would finally appear in the web drop-down lists of NCAA teams. Right now, it's like we don't even exist. NDSU will show up on scoreboards. The national recruiting web sites will show NDSU's FB recruits. Sure, it's not that big of a deal but at least we'll exist in the DI world.

Seventh, there is the possibility of more with basketball. Nobody really talked about it, but basketball is a huge draw in ND. At NDSU, BB fans aren't really a big part of Team Makers. I was kind of hoping that BB fans would end up becoming just as big a part of Team Makers and FB fans are. Mock me if you will, but I really think that NDSU will get teams on the schedule that will generate substantially more interest in non-NDSU people than almost all NCC and NSIC teams.

Finally, I thought that the move was going to be tough and that failure was a distinct possibility. The consequences of failure just didn't seem as terrible as people were making out. The Board of Higher Ed and legislature aren't going to let NDSU's athletic department run large deficits. They'd just force NDSU to go back to DII and NDSU would be an independent. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

DISCLAIMER: I've edited this post. Yep, it's true - me not write so good. I mix tenses a lot, for example. Don't blame NDSU; I was (and am still) ultimately responsible for my own education.

[jimdahl]

Tony -- as always, you're a rational fellow and I agree with most of your points. That's why I want UND to move also (though perhaps with a bit more caution and honesty about the risks).

Two things I disagree with:

The opponents that UND and NDSU will draw in basketball are unlikely to increase the popularity of the sport in the state. Not until a North Dakota school wins a conference title and advances to March Madness will it gain any popularity. Even then, I suspect it will be short-lived. I could be wrong, just my prediction: watch for basketball attendance to drop as NDSU gets beat up on by unheard of D-I teams (there are about 300!)

I actually don't really think there's much possibility of "failure" (i.e. having to move back down because it's just not feasible). I just think the struggles could be much longer and deeper than a lot of people suspect.

BTW-- the story at the end was kind of weak, did JBB help you with it?

[tony]

Hey, I'm a lowly computer science guy. My writing only really takes flight when I'm ripping into somebody or coming up with ridiculous schemes - neither of which I'd do here.

I do try to be as honest as possible. If I missed some risks that seem obvious to you, please believe me that it wasn't because I was trying to sweep them under the rug - it's just that I either didn't think of them or that I don't view them in the same light as you.

[diggerdan]

You had me nodding along in agreement until the analogy, which was just plain dumb and struck me as a little condescending.

Just like football is the engine that drives NDSU athletics, NDSU has been the engine that drives the D-I decision in this region, and for good reason. From the institutional perspective, the move makes more sense for NDSU than UND, IMHO. However, NDSU going now raises the primary reason why UND should strongly consider it: That NDSU is doing it. Call it envy or jealousy or whatever, I don't care. I want the two schools to remain primary rivals.

[jimdahl]

You had me nodding along in agreement until the analogy, which was just plain dumb and struck me as a little condescending.  

That was kind of my point too when I said it was "weak". The post in general was logically discussing why NDSU should move. But it would be nice if a single Bison visitor could make it through an entire post without appending a littany of condescending digs at the other NCC schools.

Regarding my statement of risks -- I didn't say you were ignoring risks, Tony, I said NDSU was. I would have been more clear but I thought the risk to which I was referring was beat to death already in this thread: NDSU moving without a conference affiliation secured.

[The Sicatoka]

I must have missed something (analogy?) that was edited out.

Your point one I believe is the crux of the issue: The watering down of Division II.

But then I'm forced to ask how will the "power" DIs respond to the influx of comparatively smaller, underfunded teams into DI? Comparing MSU-Moorhead to NDSU is like comparing NDSU to Minnesota. In each case, everything at the larger is nearly an order of magnitude larger. They (the power DIs) won't stand idly by just as UNC and NDSU (and assumably SDSU) didn't.

I've said this before: I believe the NCAA is missing a level or needs to rework what they have. No scholarships in DIII is a problem. It may be the source of the whole problem. That's why many NAIAs are jumping right to DII. There's the "water down." (See above.)

There is a real difference between the Big Ten and the Big Sky. There is a real difference between the Big Sky and the NCC. There is a real difference between the NCC and the NSIC. There is a real difference between the NSIC and the Dak-10. Where do I believe the smallest gap in that list is? Big Sky to NCC.

Could the NCC compete against a lot of Big Sky schools in a lot of events? Yup. But could they against the SEC or Pac-10? Nope. Hey, a lot of the Big Sky would have trouble against the SEC or Pac-10 in most things. There's the missing level in my mind: A true, all-sports, mid-major level. It would be the small (DIAAs) and the power DIIs (the NCC).

Sure Moorhead and Crookston want to give scholarships. That's great. But they just don't belong at the same level of the majority of NCC schools.

Sure NDSU (and UND) are state flagship schools, but should they be at the same level in the "Olympic sports" as the Ohio State's (who spends $80 million annually on athletics)?

An all sports, mid-major level appears to be missing. It used to be Division II but that appears to be changing.

I believe the problem could also be characterized as the NCAA hasn't changed as quickly as the landscape of college athletics has changed. Many smaller, local to regional schools now have the resources to fund some, a few scholarships and DIII doesn't allow it, thus they move to DII. Thus begins the "watering down." (See above.)

NDSU is responding as they deem appropriate. Apparently UND thinks DII can be salvaged by the NCAA in 2004. Who's right? We'll find out sooner or later.

[tony]

Yeah, I edited out an analogy. It just portrayed the NCC members as guys sitting around having a drink when the NDSU guy announces he's going to date an out-of-town girl (DI) with UND playing the part of the guy who says that she's out of NDSU's league at the same time he's saying that she's not so special. I'm sorry that I distracted people from my points but, as a Bison fan, it's really hard to read some of the stuff you UND guys have been writing.

[The Sicatoka]

Analogy? How's this?

The NCC is a group of greenskeepers at a semi-private course, call it DeeTwo.

A couple of the greenskeepers, call them The Pucks, at DeeTwo also tend a couple of holes over at the larger, "more exclusive" DeeOne private course.

The guys that don't tend holes on the side over at "DeeOne" see a lot pretty course over the fence at "DeeOne" and imagine how wonderful life at the well-manicured "DeeOne" would be.

The Pucks, having walked a couple of fairways at DeeOne know first hand how tough and expensive keeping that entire course in competitive shape would be. And they know it's a much larger course with bigger obstacles to mow around.

The semi-private DeeTwo course is taking a beating from a lot more traffic from "nouveau riche" people coming onto the semi-private course.

All the NCC greenskeepers involved want to continue to be known as the best in the area, and especially better beyond compare than those over at the "North Sun" course.

The Pucks maintain that staying at the current course and fixing the problems in the turf from the additional traffic is better.

The non-Pucks say going over to DeeOne is the solution to keeping that top tier reputation even thought there are some powerhouse greenskeepers at DeeOne already and it'll be hard to outshine (out mow?) them.

What's the solution? Better turf management at DeeTwo? Tougher rules on joining the semi-private DeeTwo? Just going to DeeOne and being "on the staff" in small letters behind premier greenskeeper "Duke Stanford"? I don't know.

What's all this remind me?

I forgot to fertilize my yard this fall and now it's too cold and too late. :p

[The Sicatoka]

tony: I don't mean to flak you, but how well did the "Wood-Pups" draw at the FargoDome recently? 3323. That's well below what even I would have guessed. ( http://www.nba.com/games/20021008/MILMIN/boxscore.html )

Even compare Class B to Class A state tourney HS basketball turnouts (choose your location for comparison).

Basketball is number two in interest behind FB in Fargo (not 'SU but the town), but it is a very distant second, especially compared to the FB vs BB interest in the rest of the state.

Getting the level of interest up would be as big, if not a larger challenge, than the one that lies ahead in FB.

[PCM]

I forgot to fertilize my yard this fall and now it's too cold and too late.

That's amazing. I've never known the Sicatoka to miss an opportunity to spread some fertilizer.

[The Sicatoka]

Ba-dump-bump .... ting!

Nice, PCM, nice.

[star2city]

I'll tell you exactly what I think about the issue with no spin and with complete honesty.

Tony:

Your honesty is appreciated. I agree with Jim Dahl that 'failure' is very unlikely but the struggles Division I will be more difficult than people suspect.

The NCAA rules are a problem at every division level: especially the new rules for transitioning Division II to Division I. Although the rule has been discussed numerous time here, its impact on obtaining a conference affiliation has not.

Dozens of schools have made a successful transition to Division I over the last thirty years. But those schools did not have to deal with waiting 12 years in basketball and 4 years in other sports for postseason eligibility. In the past, lower level Division I conferences might accept a school with one year left before post-season eligibility. With the new rules, unless a conference is absolutely desperate for new members, why would a conference add a school that, for eleven years, has (a) no chance of adding to the its finances with NCAA men's postseason basketball $$$'s, (b) could not be included in the conference post-season tournament,

[JBB]

Every objection that has been raised to the D1 move by NDSU is contrived and argumentive. Certainly it deserves thought, but dont you think it has been thought out?

It is the Chicken Little situation: Chicken Little says the sky is falling even though it aint you know he still comes calling, again and again and again.

Nobody said this would be easy, but I think it will be easier than most of you here are willing to admit.

Tony,

Your post summed it up. Every one of your points is right.

[The Sicatoka]

JBB:

Yes, the four points of Carr and CSL are well thought out. Carr and CSL must have contrived those because those seem to parallel the concerns voiced by most.

But, why did NDSU act before they had Point Four (conference) of Carr and CSL in hand? Was that well thought out? (If that's "argumentative," so be it. This is an open forum for debate.)

[JBB]

You take the highly critical position that NDSU has moved without having point 4 worked out. I take the position that NDSU has a whole lot of insight into the solution regarding point 4. It is far more reasonable to discuss the conference possibilities than to speculate on how careless they have been.

But even from your critical point of view, you should be aware thats what the provisional year is for. Remember the report says NDSU shouldnt make the transition without a conference. If it should happen that they dont get one during the provisional year they dont have to move. That brings us back to the main converstation. Which conference?

Most eyes are on the Big Sky, Mid Contenent, and Gateway. There has been speculation that a new conference could be formed. It may only be 3 or four members, but it would be created with an eye toward the future.

[jimdahl]

Most eyes are on the Big Sky, Mid Contenent, and Gateway.  There has been speculation that a new conference could be formed.  It may only be 3 or four members, but it would be created with an eye toward the future.

I (selfishly) would love to see a new conference because that makes a distinct upgrade path obvious for UND.

Such a conference would likely need to be entirely composed of new D-IAA members, though, because the conference wouldn't get autobids until there were 6 tournament eligible teams. It could be tough to convince any existing D-IAA members to repay the reclassification penalty by joining a conference of newbies.

On a different note, I'd be highly surprised if NDSU actually stayed D-II no matter what difficulties it encountered in the provisional year; I think there's entirely too much pride involved. Everyone expects some difficulties, so I can't imagine what difficulties would change people's minds about the move.

[The Sicatoka]

You take the highly critical position that NDSU has moved without having point 4 worked out.

[JBB]

The decision to reclassify comes at the end of the provisional year. Thats why during that period you compete in your existing division. Of course you cant see that point becuase your whole purpose is to be critical of the goals and missions of NDSU.

A new conference may very well be formed and may provide future opportunity for you to join. Of course you would have to apply and be accepted. Its nice to see how your already lining up to get in!

It wouldnt have to be new D1AA schools. It could include independents that have no auto bid now, or schools that arent happy with their current situation. There are many possibilities. University of Wyoming has been mentioned as a possible member becasue of the reclasification problems. Who knows?

I think its going to be the BSC. I used to thinkg the Gateway, but they only play football. Im not sure about the situatio for other sports. Of course playing further south would enhance recruiting potential there. It would also expose us more in the Chicago and Milwakee areas. The Big SKy has many more traditional rivals though.

[The Sicatoka]

Of course you cant see that point becuase your whole purpose is to be critical of the goals and missions of NDSU.

Your defensiveness takes away from the opportunity you have here to put forth the definitive case as to why NDSU is correct and UND is wrong.

'tony' is doing a nice job explaining why NDSU made the decision it did.

And again, in the beginning I said this would make much more sense if a group of NCC schools all moved up together to cover the conference and costs parts of the equation. You've apparently moved somewhat into that realm with your "form a conference" idea.

Who would you envision in the newly evolving conference?

[star2city]

JBB:

You have a great sense of humor!! First you say the issues are contrived and argumentative about why NDSU will have difficulty in being accepted into an established conference. Now you say NDSU is looking at forming a new conference. Apparently the established conferences don't consider the issues contrived. Until the Mid-Continent Commissioner spoke, I believed that, at best, NDSU had a Mid-Continent commitment in hand. Now your information further confirms that even the lowest available conference, the Mid-Continent, is not interested until the basketball probation period is over. Why else would a mini-conference even be considered?

Would the following lineup be correct for your new mini-conference?

NDSU

Northern Colorado

Utah Valley State University (moving from a JC to Div I - no football)

SDSU (?)

Wyoming - only in your dreams! In the remote event that they are dropped from I-A football, the Big Sky commissioner would be on his knees at their doorstep.

Has NDSU talked with Indiana University-Purdue University-Fort Wayne (IUPUFW - not to be confused with IUPUI)? They are looking for a Div I Conference.

NDSU

[JBB]

I like the way you jump to conclusions. I only mentioned the new conference to illustrate the idea that anything is possible. Of course the most negative and abusive spin was applied by "you all".

We will see what NDSU does. But at least they are doing something. Personally I don't care if NDSU goes independent. It actually may be the best course of action. We already have Davis and Montana on the schedule. We are talking to several Gateway schools and Montana State. We have uendd, UNC and SDSU. We are talking with several schools from the South. Several years as an independent wouldn't be all that bad. Notre Dame has done well. We have many D1AA relationships that could be revived. Im sure we could set up several very interesting D1A games.

This conference thing is an example of the contrived argument. You don't want to move to D1 so any alternative other than the one you hold out as the ideal is no good and will bring your condemnation. Of course the ideal you hold out as best is the thing NDSU isn't doing.

Why don't you listen to your own advice and proclaim D2 forever? I think your a good fit. You have a conference, you are giving local athletes a chance, you are avoiding scandal (code word?), you can afford it, you have great success at the level your at, your playoff eligible, you can maintain all of your natural rivalries including Crookston, you think you can win, you think you can get good grades. Can you think of any more reasons for uendd to stay D2? if so add them to the list. D2 where you belong.

[star2city]

In I-AA football, I agree that NDSU can be successful as an independent. In four years you will be playoff eligible, and scheduling shouldn