NDSU: Why Low Status?

[star2city]

Seven schools are actively pursuing membership in the Mid-Continent conference. To objectively identify who would be the frontrunners for bids, a matrix of different criteria was developed. The two most important criteria to the MCC would be the strength of the men

[bisonguy]

star2city,

IFPW was rejected by the Mid-Con in favor of Centenary last year. Unless they have made a major change in their athletice program, I don't see a different result.

UTPA's program is supposedly a disaster.

TAMUCC has too many letters and received less votes thanNDSU on the ORU boards "Who should be the next Mid-Con member" thread .

How can NDSU and UND have the same score for travel/time?

Do hourly flights into Fargo compare to twice a day flights into Grand Forks?

How about Tournament sponsorship? Fargo wins on all three criteria you set out, but yet NDSU and UND receive the same score.

Baseball is only important to ORU. The rest of the Mid-Con is focused on BB.

[star2city]

IFPW was rejected by the Mid-Con in favor of Centenary last year. Unless they have made a major change in their athletice program, I don't see a different result.

Centenary was also rejected before they were accepted.

The following major change in IPFW athletics was posted on their website:

Coliseum, Globetrotters & Vitale

[star2city]

When are NDSU and SDSU getting site visits by Mid-Con brass? Utah Valley State College in Orem (27,000 students) is apparently getting an inspection visit later this month by the Mid-Con:

UVSC moves up to Div. I

I'm sure Southern Utah is doing everything possible to help UVSC out so travel costs get spread over two games rather than one.

[bisonguy]

Southern Utah desperately needs a travel partner if they want to remain in the Mid-Con. They had been rumored to be looking at the Big West.

star2city,

I stand corrected on the number of flights to Grand Forks. There are seven daily, all from Minneapolis. Three flights are Saab SF-340 Turboprops, that hold a maximum of 36 passengers. Three flights are DC9, which hold a maximum of 139 passengers(this is probably more than the ones in GF, as there are smaller configurations of the DC-9). One flight is an Avroliner RJ, with a maximum of 70 passengers. This means a whopping 595 people can fly into Grand Forks daily. It would take 5 days for 2,500 visiting fans to arrive.

Flights to Fargo There are thirteen daily flights to Fargo. You can also have a direct flight to Chicago or Denver(Two Mid-Con schools in Chicago) . The planes include one DC9-50, which holds 139. Two DC9-30, which hold 115. One DC9-10, which holds 90. Three Airbus A319, which hold 126. Five CRJ, which hold 70. One Avroliner RJ, which holds 70. This creates a grand total of 1257. Fargo could handle 2,500 fans in two days of flights.

What does all this mean? It's a helluva lot easier to get to Fargo than Grand Forks, and there are a lot more hotels/motels in Fargo. Two of the criteria for "Tournament Sponsor" were travel and accomodations, yet you give NDSU and UND the same score. NDSU should have at least one extra point for all the exta passenger capacity and extra accomodations available.

[h5322rsh]

STAR2CITY SAID THE BELOW:

When are NDSU and SDSU getting site visits by Mid-Con brass? Utah Valley State College in Orem (27,000 students) is apparently getting an inspection visit later this month by the Mid-Con:

Re-read the article. It says the Mid Continent commissioner starts his job July 14. It does not say that they have any planned trip to UVSC. Likewise much to your disappointment, it does not say that the Mid-Continent is not interested in NDSU or SDSU, nor does it say that Mid Continent Commissioner will not waste travel funds going to Brookings and Fargo. This is just wishful thinking on your part Star2City. Good luck in D2 UND.

[Bison_Kent]

. . . . . . . . . . . . IPFW . TAMUCC . UTPA . UNC . . NDSU . UND . . UVSC . SDSU

Div 1 Eligible? . . . . 5 . . . . 5 . . . . . 5 . . . . 2 . . . . 1 . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . 0

Travel Cost/Time . 10 . . . . 6 . . . . . 5 . . . . 5 . . . . 2 . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 1

MBB Prog . . . . . . . 7 . . . . 7 . . . . . . 4 . . . . 3 . . . . 7 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 9

WBB Prog . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . 3 . . . . 3 . . . . 2 . . . . 5 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 5

Tourna Sponsor? . . 5 . . . . 4 . . . . . 1 . . . . 2 . . . . 2 . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 1

Baseball . . . .. . . . 2 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 5 . . . . 5 . . . . 2 . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 1

Media . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . 4 . . . . . 2 . . . . 5 . . . . 2 . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 1

Recruiting . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 3 . . . . 4 . . . . 1 . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 1

Facilities . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 3 . . . . 2 . . . . 5 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 4

Revenue Sources . 3 . . . . . 3 . . . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . .4 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 2

Conference Spons .5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5

Total . . . . . . . . . . 49 . . . . 47 . . . . 33. . . . 33 . . . 31 . . . . 31 . . . . . 28 . . . . . 25

I have problems with some of the other numbers as well. NDSU and the Fargo media will be by far the best of all these schools with the Grand Forks media probably second. The Forum has an article on the Bison almost daily of some sort. I am not sure how you can rate the other schools higher. They are lucky to get a small blurb in their major newspaper about the game the night before. I am assuming you are using Denver as the media center for UNC. But with Colorado, Colorado State, and Air Force in the area, these schools are still going to get top billing. The same can be said for the Texas schools with Texas-Austin, Texas A & M, Texas Christian, Texas Tech, Baylor, Rice, SMU getting more press then either of the Texas schools. Utah Valley State is a brand new DI school as well and have never even had DII sports before so they are not real attractive to other then to be a travel partner for Southern Utah.

NDSU's AD Gene Taylor has said that meetings with the Mid-Con will be happening in the next few months. The Mid Con had been without a commissioner until about a month ago.

[star2city]

NDSU should have at least one extra point for all the exta passenger capacity and extra accomodations available.

So if you insist, bisonguy, award NDSU one more point. Most people that go to conference tournaments would prefer to drive (unless Southwest Airlines is available), and Fargo and GF are not easily drives from most MidCon locations.

The extra point brings NDSU up to fifth place, well behind IPFW and TAMUCC.

[star2city]

Re-read the article. It says the Mid Continent commissioner starts his job July 14. It does not say that they have any planned trip to UVSC.  Likewise much to your disappointment, it does not say that the Mid-Continent is not interested in NDSU or SDSU, nor does it say that Mid Continent Commissioner will not waste travel funds going to Brookings and Fargo.  This is just wishful thinking on your part Star2City. Good luck in D2 UND.

Apparently, our reading comprehension skills are different. The actual quote is:

A committee from the conference will make a trip to the Orem school some time after their new commissioner Ron Bertovich takes office on July 14.

So a Mid-Con committee is definitely visiting UVSC sometime after July 14th. That is a fact according to this article.

[star2city]

I have problems with some of the other numbers as well.  NDSU and the Fargo media will be by far the best of all these schools with the Grand Forks media probably second.  The Forum has an article on the Bison almost daily of some sort.  I am not sure how you can rate the other schools higher.  They are lucky to get a small blurb in their major newspaper about the game the night before.  I am assuming you are using Denver as the media center for UNC.  But with Colorado, Colorado State, and Air Force in the area, these schools are still going to get top billing.  The same can be said for the Texas schools with Texas-Austin, Texas A & M, Texas Christian, Texas Tech, Baylor, Rice, SMU getting more press then either of the Texas schools.  Utah Valley State is a brand new DI school as well and have never even had DII sports before so they are not real attractive to other then to be a travel partner for Southern Utah. 

Newspaper coverage is just a small part of 'media'. Every school listed would have extensive coverage in their city's paper, except maybe Provo-Orem, Utah. NDSU coverage in the Fargo Forum, however extensive, will not put more conference reimbursement money into the hands of the Valparaiso or IUPUI athletic departments. What is really wanted is enough households so that a Mid-Con game-of-the-week will be broadcast on ESPN, the College Sports Network, or a regional sports network. A television contract that pays $'s and helps recruiting is a bottom-line. UNC, UVSC, and TAMUCC would add the most households to the conference 'footprint', making a media contract more likely.

In addition, conferences want attention in major national or regional newspapers, even if it is just a one-time article. Was it any coincidence that Zach Parise was written up in the New York Times shortly after UND played at Princeton and Yale? No.

This quote from the Oral Roberts board sums up this issue:

Wild on...Fargo!

If we're going to be competitive in the North Dakota recruiting scene, we need exposure up there.

Also, this could mean big bucks from ESPN if we could get a substantial portion of North Dakota's 635,000 residents to watch games.

It takes consistent excellence (i.e. Gonzaga basketball) or a Div I tradition (i.e. UND Hockey) to break through this mindset.

[h5322rsh]

Yes Star2City.

It does say sometime after July 14th, but IS this trip to Orem the first point of business? I doubt it. It could be months before The Comish or his committee gets to Orem. So how do you conclude that SDSU and NDSU are left out? Why would they discuss other potential future members SDSU and NDSU in an article about UVSC? So the fact that they are not mentioned does not mean that visits to Brookings and Fargo are not on the agenda. So dont try to make this move to D1 a hopeless situation. It is not. Everyone moving up to D1 has problems finding a conference. So dont give SDSU and NDSU THAT "I told you so" attitude, its too early to throw in the cards.

Your criteria above is about as helpful as a f**t in a space suit.

Good Luck in D2, UND.

[bisonguy]

It takes consistent excellence (i.e. Gonzaga basketball) or a Div I tradition (i.e. UND Hockey) to break through this mindset.

star2city,

If a DI tradition in hockey meant anything, people on the other boards would bring it up. Something along the lines of "Didn't NDSU win seven DI titles in hockey?" or "Is NDSU in the same conference as UND, who won seven DI hockey titles?", but they don't! Instead, they ask "Is there a University of North Dakota?"

Here's a quote from the ORU board that sums it up:

After thinking about it and reviewing all of the posts in this thread, I hope that the Mid-Con accepts NDSU and SDSU with open arms...In the end, I would rather see ORU travel to Fargo and play in front of 8000 than seeing them play in front of 24 at CSU and 220 at IUPUI.

Here's one more:

All the talk about anybody not wanting to go to the Dakotas is just plain silly. If you want to pick conference teams based on who has the best spring break then maybe somebody should start the spring break conference. Realistically, ORU is a geographic outlier in the conference and to expect the mid-con to try and even out travel costs by adding texas schools would be crazy. The mid-con is a midwest league and the Dakotas are a stretch but may be the best of what's available.

This one is pretty good:

Bottom line - TAMUCC and Pan-American or other toilet level existing D1 teams have very little potential, at least with the Dakotas and their committment to D1 there is some potential no matter what airlines fly into Fargo.

[Bison_Kent]

It takes consistent excellence (i.e. Gonzaga basketball) or a Div I tradition (i.e. UND Hockey) to break through this mindset.

I will agree with you on Gonzaga but only the hockey world knows of UND which is about 10% of the USA.

Newspaper coverage is just a small part of 'media'. Every school listed would have extensive coverage in their city's paper, except maybe Provo-Orem, Utah. NDSU coverage in the Fargo Forum, however extensive, will not put more conference reimbursement money into the hands of the Valparaiso or IUPUI athletic departments. What is really wanted is enough households so that a Mid-Con game-of-the-week will be broadcast on ESPN, the College Sports Network, or a regional sports network. A television contract that pays $'s and helps recruiting is a bottom-line. UNC, UVSC, and TAMUCC would add the most households to the conference 'footprint', making a media contract more likely.

I don't agree with this. I live near Wichita where Wichita State at best gets second page coverage under U of Kansas and Kansas State in the Wichita newpaper. Any coverage for the conference will help lead the Mid Con and will be a big reason.

Also, another area that was not discussed was attendence. If media attention is such a low priority, lets look at attendence instead. NDSU had approx. 2,800 average per game in men's basketball. This is more then everyone besides SDSU who are moving up. Attendence yields money and will garner more media exposure. TV likes to see a packed house when they show a game. A half filled arena will not warrant as many TV appearances as one that is full. Recruiting will be helped by adding SDSU and NDSU because the people watching the game will see near full attendences.

Here was my quote on the Oral Roberts board quoting the attendences:

TX-PA:

Total attendence for 11 home dates = 22,319. This is an average of 2029 per game.

NDSU:

Total attendence for 17 home dates = 48,770. This is an average of 2868.8 per game.

Texas-Pan America is the one with the most attendence behind NDSU. 800 more people per game and more home games meant NDSU had more then twice the total attendence of its nearest competitor.

Come on, money is the ultimate reason for the Mid Con to expand. Attendence, facilities, and media attention will all be higher at NDSU then either Texas school or IUPUFW and thus has a better capability of getting money. Also, NDSU and SDSU have by far more support finacially speaking. Here are attendence figures for basketball for the other teams being considered:

Texas A & M-Corp. Christi 1483

IUPFW 1217

SDSU 3491

UNC 637

UND 3423

[star2city]

So dont give SDSU and NDSU THAT "I told you so" attitude, its too early to throw in the cards.

Actually, h5322rsh, I'm trying to let your ego down gently after the Big Sky debacle. Expecting anything but a rejection slip will only lead to further disappointment. Typical behavior of you to lash out at the messenger and not at your leadership. There is nothing wrong with keeping on trying, just as Centenary did and IPFW and TAMUCC are doing, as in four or five years maybe you'll be at the top of the list.

Your criteria above is about as helpful as a f**t in a space suit.

You being a space cadet, I'll accept your expert opinion. Just keep your opinion and your space suit clean, please.

[star2city]

If a DI tradition in hockey meant anything, people on the other boards would bring it up. Something along the lines of "Didn't NDSU win seven DI titles in hockey?" or  "Is NDSU in the same conference as UND, who won seven DI hockey titles?", but they don't! Instead, they ask "Is there a University of North Dakota?"

How about this:

If a DII tradition in football meant anything, people on the other boards would bring it up. Something along the lines of "Didn't UND win eight DII titles in football?" Instead, they say "Who cares about DII football".

It all depends on your audience.

The boards seem to cut both ways, such as this survey on the UM-Kansas City board.

Subject: Mid-Con Expansion [survey]Please reply with 'yes' or 'no' answers to the following questions.

1. The Mid-Con should add NDSU and SDSU.

2. The Mid-Con should expand to 12 members/2 divisions.

3. The Mid-Con should add Denver and Northern Colorado.

4. The Mid-Con should expel Chicago State and compete with 10 or fewer members.

5. I will make January roadtrips to Fargo.

6. I look good in a parka and mittens.

7. I plan to visit the Lawrence Welk home.

8. I prefer the Mid-Con expand in Texas.

9. IPFW should be the next school added to the Mid-Con.

10. The Mid-Con should not expand at this time.

I think even you would admit, bisonguy, that a January trip to South Padre Island (with TAMUCC and UTPA) would be tempting for many coaches recruiting efforts. Just as UND and NDSU women's BB went to Florida last year and UND's will go to Hawaii-Hilo this year.

Another quote from the Oral Roberts board goes like this:

The bottom line in this whole thread is this:

NO ONE wants to go to either of the Dakotas. Period. Your location does nothing to enhance our conference and travel is always an issue when you're talking about adding teams. Travel in this league already stinks. We don't need to make it worse.

A little hint to you guys: North and South Dakota aren't exactly the hotbeds of college athletics, or any athletics for that matter.

I'm sure you have some nice little facilities and great fan support, but what else is there to do up there other than watch the ice melt and count polar bears? You have a captive audience. I'm sure 10,000 people would turn out for Jello-O wrestling because what else are they going to do?

People laughed when Oakland, IUPUI and Chicago State joined the league, but at least they are in significant urban locations. North Dakota State and South dakota State are where? IN THE DAKOTAS!!! We're not going hunting! This is college athletics, not a bear trapping expedition!

Anyone have any idea how long it would take to get there from here? No, they don't! Because no one's ever been!

We've all tried to be nice and hoped you would read between the lines. Hopefully being blunt works better.

This league already has an identity crisis. Adding either Dakota school will only make it worse.

Regrettably, having to overcome the Fargo movie mystique can be a tough sell in non-regional territory.

[star2city]

Come on, money is the ultimate reason for the Mid Con to expand.

[bisonguy]

[Bison_Kent]

Was not the addition of Centenary a signal that the conference intends to move futher south when it could have moved west or stayed Midwest? TAMUCC and UTPA are logical next stepping stones.

Could we also expect the Mid Con to expand westward since Southern Utah was added 6 years ago? Face it, geography plays a little role in the Mid Con's expansion efforts. They are looking for the best schools reguardless of geographical location. Of course, if they were looking for geographical reasons, NDSU and SDSU are closer to the core of midwestern schools then are the Texas schools. When 6 of the schools are in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri, they probably will have the deciding vote as this would be 2/3rds of the conference.

As far as football helping, I agree with Bisonguy. Many I-AA schools had been part of the old college division before the moved up. NDSU played several of these teams in bowl games, playoff games, and in non-conference games during the regualar season. These teams view NDSU as a peer not a team trying to get more money coming up to Division I (like several small schools moving up just with basketball) as several of those schools have done doing exactly what we are now. Also, winning many football title reguardless of division seems to put you in several school's radar. Many people know of Mount Union of Division III because they have won so many titles.

[star2city]

Could we also expect the Mid Con to expand westward since Southern Utah was added 6 years ago?

[WYOBISONMAN]

It will be interesting to see how the fans at Montana handle this new football conference as it starts to come of age. Montana is used to being the only dominant force in the West, but I think that will change.