tony

What a bunch of crap! Why the hell are your torn on this issue? You should be ashamed that UND's supporters in the legislature are being such blatant weasels. Let me get this straight - in ND, it's OK to subsidize JUCO, NAIA, or NCAA DII sports but not DI? Maybe NDSU should just do what UND did for so many years - just take money, not from the general fund or student activity fees, but from other budget items and funnel it into the athletic department without telling anybody. For God's sake what do they put in the water up in Grand Forks that makes you think that this is even remotely acceptable behavior? I'll just add this one to the big pile of frigging garbage that NDSU has had to put up with from the puling babies who try to protect UND from any competition.

skateshattrick, whisky is a correct spelling - look at a bottle of single malt Scotch and see for yourself. Also, grammar is not the same thing as spelling, hence the need for a separate grammar checker in word processers. And finally, maybe all NDSU alumni (like myself) are ignorant, but ignorance is not exclusive to NDSU alumni.

The rumor that Ed accidentally shot his dog started in Fargo. As you probably know, you have to be a real jackass to shoot your dog while hunting. Last rumor I heard had him doing it twice. I have no idea how this started or whether it's true or not. The oddness of the rumor (I mean, why would somebody make that up?) doesn't make it any more believable because people often come up with bizarre extrapolations from tiny bits of information. I don't know if the rumor is true and, as a rule, I hate gossip. Maybe if you called him up and asked him why NDSU students have been chanting "Ed shot his dog!" for over a decade, you'd get him to go off on another tirade - or maybe he'd spin a heartbreaking tale along the lines of "Old Yeller." If you don't get cut off, it might be entertaining and/or informative. He's probably pretty pretty defensive at the moment so you might want to wait until football season to ask him. It's almost the same atmosphere as when NDSU students threw a whiskey bottle into his booth (I still don't know if that was intentional - whiskey bottles had a habit of taking long flights over the back of the stands at Dacotah Field) and Ed responding by swearing up a storm on air before charging into the stands as if he could find the culprit by seeing who had whiskey on his breath - talk about trying to find a needle in a needle stack. Personally, I've never blamed him for that. Anyway, I'd sure like to hear Ed's side of the man-shoots-dog story.

Hey, nearly every day Eddie rants about NDSU's president. God knows why. Never heard a peep from UND people about how that is unprofessional. You got a hatchetman and now you're whining because you got a nick on your finger? Cry me a river.

See I like this better - talking without trading insults. RD17, how do I think it would be different if UND had voted to go DI? The NCC would be DI, scheduling would be easier, travel less of a problem, and just because a school votes "No" doesn't mean they wouldn't stay in the NCC. From UND's perspective, it's a lot easier than going DI w/o the NCC. I'm saying it would be easier, not easy. Oh, and btw, I don't mind speculation as long as it has some basis in reality - a lot of the stuff I've been reading is wishful thinking or out and out BS. Jim, a team can go below .500 in DII too. If NDSU starts below .500 and improves that's a whole different thing than dominating a division for ten years and then gradually getting worse - especially when some of the things affecting the program, NDSU is helpless to prevent. Heck, I'm a big Bison fan but playing NSIC teams and most all of the NCC teams is not exciting at all in any sport. Can I get thrilled about beating an NSIC team? No and honestly, I never want to see the day that I do get excited about that. Take the Big Sky: this year in basketball Eastern Washington beat Washington and San Diego State and lost to Nebraska by 3. Montana played Michigan State, Washington State, Stanford, and Loyola Marymount and beat the last two. Montana State beat Washington. Northern Arizona played Arizona and UCLA and beat UCLA. Now even if those aren't home games, what would get you more excited, playing and possibly beating a BCS team or traditional basketball power or having UND play the NCC version of tackle basketball against NSIC teams and quite possibly getting beat?

Just as a refresher, here is what I stated at the reasons that NDSU moved up a couple months ago. They've held up pretty well - except that I didn't expect SDSU to jump too - although it still hasn't happened for sure. ---------- First, it wasn't UND the spelled the end of NDSU in the DII, it was the NSIC. Since the NSIC has moved up to DII, we've now got about 20 DII schools in the tri-state. If you view the NCAA classification as a market segment, then DII is a lot more crowded, and the new schools aren't much like NCC schools - definitely not state flagships. By going DI, NDSU suddenly finds itself as one of only three DI football-playing schools in MN, ND, WI, and SD. It seemed like a good way to differentiate NDSU from the pack. Second, if the survey of likely financial supporters of NDSU's move had come back negatively, I wouldn't have supported the move. It's going to be tough to make it in DI and I was glad that the survey asked if our continued financial support was dependent on winning seasons. The survey gave me a chance to answer without considering whether there were enough other people supporting the move. Third, it was time to decide one way or another whether NDSU was going to go DI. Ever since DI-AA was formed, NDSU has been talking about going DI. 25 years of talking is too much. Fourth, NDSU's football team is the engine that drives NDSU sports and NDSU isn't doing well in DII football (even before this year's season). They're winning about 75-80% of their games and they've made it to the playoffs a couple times in the last few years. There are very few programs that are having that kind of success and most of them don't have NDSU's competition. NDSU, the media, and the fans are holding the FB team to a nearly impossible standard - a standard that no team with NDSU's competition can possibly maintain. I wanted NDSU to be the underdog again and to scratch their way back to the top because it's a lot more motivating to be the underdog than being the prohibitive favorite all the time. I've never believed that DI-AA football is much better than DII football at all in the first place so I figured that most good Bison teams could match up with most DI-AA teams already. It follows that adding 27 scholarships might just push NDSU over the top. Fifth, there's the NCAA. I thought that NDSU would benefit from the higher standards that DI demands from recruits, even though they'll have to bypass recruits that they could have gone after before. I also knew that the NCAA was talking about reorganization and thought that being in DI would give NDSU the most options in the event of significant changes. I hate DII's regionalized format, I thought NDSU got screwed when they got sent down to Mississippi in 2000 (and that wasn't the first time), and I figured that the NSIC was going to start getting into the playoffs every year. What's a recruit supposed to think when Winona makes the playoffs and NDSU doesn't? DII had yet to show that they had a long-term plan. To me it seemed likely that we'd have four or more new-from-NAIA conferences join DII by 2005 and that they'd all demand to get into the playoffs in all sports - with the same tactic that's been used before, "either get us into the playoffs or we'll level the playing field (ie reduce scholarships). Maybe DII can navigate those waters, but they've yet to show they have what it takes. Sixth, there's the little perks that make recruiting easier. NDSU would finally appear in the web drop-down lists of NCAA teams. Right now, it's like we don't even exist. NDSU will show up on scoreboards. The national recruiting web sites will show NDSU's FB recruits. Sure, it's not that big of a deal but at least we'll exist in the DI world. Seventh, there is the possibility of more with basketball. Nobody really talked about it, but basketball is a huge draw in ND. At NDSU, BB fans aren't really a big part of Team Makers. I was kind of hoping that BB fans would end up becoming just as big a part of Team Makers and FB fans are. Mock me if you will, but I really think that NDSU will get teams on the schedule that will generate substantially more interest in non-NDSU people than almost all NCC and NSIC teams. Finally, I thought that the move was going to be tough and that failure was a distinct possibility. The consequences of failure just didn't seem as terrible as people were making out. The Board of Higher Ed and legislature aren't going to let NDSU's athletic department run large deficits. They'd just force NDSU to go back to DII and NDSU would be an independent. That doesn't sound so bad to me. --------

Ah, RD17, now you're speculating. The people who will judge whether NDSU/SDSU are worth adding to the conference will meet in February. Why not wait and see what they say? We could speculate all day. Suppose Idaho comes back. Suppose Sacramento State drops out due to California's budget problems and joins the Big West for BB and a more regional DIAA league for football (Davis, St. Mary's, Sacramento, Cal Poly SLO, Humboldt, and who knows, S. Utah or Northern Col?). Suppose a team or two decide that DIA is the way to go. Suppose the core of the conference decide that having those two big media market commuter schools isn't really that great of a thing. I think you missed my point about the NCC going DI - if UND's long-term goals are to go DI, a DI NCC was (and is) the most obvious, least painful way of getting through the provisional period - better than any other conference possibility that will happen for years, if not ever. I also think that you mistake my reasons for deciding that NDSU should go DI. Increased exposure? Yeah, there'd be that but I doubt that it'd translate into more football attendance unless NDSU replaced current NCC teams (other than UND) with somebody else, take Maine as an example. I'm not sure that this effect would be permanent but it'll be there for a while. The only place I've ever seen much hope for significant attendance increases was in non-conference FB games and basketball. When I started at NDSU, they were averaging SIX THOUSAND per BB game, not 2,500.

Jim, I wouldn't have gotten so irate with UND's administration and editorial support if they had just said, "Hey, there aren't any good conference opportunities available so we'll wait." Why all the other BS? However, since the best possible conference opportunity was there for the taking last year when the NCC voted on going DI, I don't really think that this was a significant reason for waiting.

"Speculating on all that other stuff" is not the most elegant phrase I've ever spat out, sorry. I'm talking about the sometimes outlandish theories that sometimes pop up on here and there. Here are some that I've heard so you can get a picture of what I'm talking about. 1. UND isn't going DI because the REA is losing money or some secret scandal/problems will be revealed by outside audit of the athletic department. 2. NDSU is going DI because it will force the state to raise the wages of the faculty to 15% (no idea what the logic is for that one). 3. UND won't go DI because of hockey and some secret deal with Ralph. 4. All but one or two of NDSU's coaches hate the idea of going DI because of who people think showed up at a press conference. 5. I've talked to many Team Makers and they all hate the idea of going DI and, despite a comprehensive survey that shows otherwise. 6. Added one Even though the 2004 NCAA actions are for DI football only, they are going to change the NCAA landscape in profound ways like limiting the BB tourney to BCS teams only and spliting DII into two divisions. (Idaho getting forced down is a possibility though). It's that stuff that I'm talking about. I was tempted to write: "I'm more interested in what UND people are saying about DI than that other BS." but I'm trying to be civil as my disposition allows. (I edited this post after rereading it)

SDSUFan, from what I've heard, the REA is doing very well. I like to take things at face value as well and not worry about the behind-the-scenes stuff. Hockey and DI - I've never seen the link, although both UND's administration and several people on the pro-DI side seem to see it. There are just too many other differences between UN-O, St. Cloud, Mankato, and UND to lump them all together. I'm more interested in what UND people think about DI for UND without speculating on all that other stuff.

Star2City, actually Chapman was saying that those three universities had similar "land grant portfolios." Kolpack just reported what he said. I'm not sure that you've read the Billings articles, so here they are (not sure how long they'll be valid): Article 1 Article 2 I'm not sure that this writer even mentions land grant status at all but I'm sure that you will derive a great deal of delight in proving me wrong - and if I can bring a moment of pleasure to your life, it won't be the worst thing I've done today. All he does is briefly mention the possibility that NDSU and SDSU may join the Big Sky and how he'd like to see it happen. I sometimes think that you're conflicted, half the time you seem to be saying that NDSU isn't worthy of the Big Sky and the other half of the time you seem to be saying that the Big Sky isn't worthy of NDSU... wait, that can't be right because you'd probably pull off your own arms and kick them down a well before you'd type anything remotely positive about NDSU. I suppose that you're really saying that the NCC is better than the Big Sky and that NDSU, as always, is an object of scorn for all right-thinking people. As this thread is supposed to be devoted to talking about UND's future in the Big Sky, has there been any movement at all on UND's part into investigating DI? I was just in Fargo for a week and asked around and it only confirmed what I thought already - DI is not an option that UND is pursuing whatsoever. The Herald keeps making it sound like UND could go DI at any minute unless people rise up and stop them. Plenty of people on this board also seem to think that UND is considering DI too. Based on what, I wonder?

Imagine my delight upon coming to see what you UND guys are talking about today and finding out that putting a pretty hard to spot "Hockey Sucks" on my site. Just to head of the bleats of "But it's right there!" - think "Purloined Letter." Relax, I only put it in there to wind up UND fans. A little touchy, are we? There's no disdain for hockey, just a knowledge that there are a lot of UND guys out there who are INCREDIBLY easy to take the piss out of.

Winona State would probably be the best choice. I would have mentioned them except that I thought that the school didn't have any interest. PS Just because I think thatMankato and Morningside don't/didn't offer many scholarships doesn't mean that there isn't a higher minimum or that they don't/didn't offer a higher number than I think. I made it sound like I was stating verified fact and I wasn't. I'd love to know what the NCC's requirements are and am surprised info on it hasn't appeared in the news.

Actually... I hadn't thought of this before but the NCAA has talked off and on about admitting Canadian schools to the NCAA - how about the U. of Manitoba?

The NCC has a minimum? I thought Mankato has offered less than 20 for years now. Morningside was never even close to 36. University of Mary might be looking to move up. Southwest State (MN), Moorhead, and Concordia-St. Paul would be better geographic fits though.

I blame it on his hanging out on a UND board. JBB, come back to the light!

A drunin sailor?

I'm not sure how you equate me saying that Mary is a better fit for the NSIC than the NCC with UND fans saying that NDSU shouldn't join DI because the competition is too hard. Then again, I'm probably a little better at seeing patterns in data than UND fans are Suppose NDSU had an option of joining a weak DI conference and having an equal shot of making the postseason in football and basketball as they would in a stronger DI conference, I'd be saying that they should jump at the weaker conference. In time NDSU would make the weak conference respectable anyway, just like they did with the NCC. Besides I'm not saying that Mary shouldn't go DI, I'm saying the exact opposite - all the teams in the DAC 10 who meet the minimum DII requirements* would be stupid not to go to DII. * Must have an athletic program with a nickname and one or more school colors.

Just my opinion but the U of Mary would be nuts to join the NCC. What benefit is there for them or the NCC? If they join the NCC, they're going to have to battle just to have a winning season every year, plus they'd end up spending twice as much matching up with the public schools scholarship for scholarship. Add Mary and Jamestown to the NCC and you can almost guarantee RMAC-style scholarship limits unless DII lowers the limit across the division first. No, the NCC just doesn't make sense to me. OTOH, if they convince the whole DAC to move up, they've got an automatic playoff berth in every sport in DII in about four years. I've got to believe that it won't take their conference long to realize this. Their second best option is to join up with Jamestown College and go to the NSIC. They wouldn't have to add scholarships, they can just abide with the NSIC limit until the DII votes to reduce football scholarships to something they can afford, plus the path to DII postseason glory is pretty gentle there compared to the NCC.

Mary and Jamestown College will go DII, it's just a matter of whether the rest of the DAC 10 will go with them. Mary and Jamestown would fit in well in the NSIC especially with Morris and Duluth leaving.

"Star2city is right," he says with a grimace. "JBB is right," he smiles. As it relates to NDSU, they did NOT put the time frame on the survey they sent out to me, they just said a that NDSU wouldn't be able to compete in national championships for a "period of time." Of course, the 13-year is pretty new and adopted at about the same time surveys were going out. If I can find NCAA sources for everything, I'll post all this information on the bisonville site as FAQs because the non-official sites are so inconsistent. The conclusion that this rule would make conferences less likely to accept new members is kind of puzzling. Doesn't it mean they can accept new members without worrying about them taking their spot in the BB tournament? What kind of time frame would there have to be for you to think that UND should move up, Star2City?

By being a pain in the ass, I'm trying to show you guys what being an NDSU supporter is like (although if that's what JBB is up to, he's overdoing it a lot of the time). Put yourself in an NDSU supporter's shoes for a minute. We have every reason to be suspicious of UND people bearing advice. The name change was a while ago, yes, but unless you're twelve you were around for the public relations efforts to stop the FargoDome, close the Polymers and Coatings Department, and stop the business college from becoming accredited. I tried to get a feeling for what points a sampling of UND fans are trying to make by looking at the posts you, star2city, and Jim have made but since you've each made more than 50 posts on the DI topic (oops, in UND-land, it's the "division I-AA" topic), it's nearly impossible. Besides, reading them was getting me kind of steamed. If each of you guys would collect your thoughts on this issue and edit them down in a single post, it would certainly help move this discussion to the next level. ----------- You can read the posts I've made in this forum up to today's first one right here.

Do I really wish UND ill? How is this evident? Pick up some phrases that show a pattern. Right now, the only way I'm wishing UND ill is this: their administration opposed NDSU's move. Poetic justice would see them having to admit their mistake and try to go DI only to find out that they missed the boat. At some point, in a couple years, NDSU would be in a position to help UND get in to NDSU's conference and everything would be OK again.

Okay, I'm going to be a pain in the ass now - just remind yourself while reading this that I'm half-teasing, half-serious and that I'm not really that angry. Jim Dahl, I think I'm right. History is decidedly on my side. If UND people had their way, there'd be no FargoDome, NDSU would still be NDAC, and NDAC would remain DII until UND finally made up their mind to go themselves (something that their administration has given no clear indication of being willing to do). In fact, UND scuttled the last chance for having a DI NCC without increasing fixed costs significantly. Oops! If your long term goal is to have UND go DI, taking that position was an unbelievable, colossal mistake. There is no chance for a DI NCC anymore. All the arguments against DI that involve basketball make Northern Iowa rejoining the NCC wishful nonsense. UNC, UND, SDSU, NDSU, and USD - we'd have had a freaking five-four majority and your school botched it. And UND fans were happy about it! All that would have been needed was for one of the NCC teams to come along, or convince UMD or an MIAA team to join up and, voila, you'd have been in a fully-compliant DI conference without increasing travel costs or getting rid of those traditional rivalries you're so worried about. Congratulations! You guys really showed NDSU who wears the clown pants in the family! That vote was UND's best chance to go DI. Now if NDSU and SDSU leave, UND's chances for going DI are much worse. If I were a UND fan, I would be desperately hoping that NDSU and SDSU stay put or fail. DESPERATELY HOPING. What kind of sorry position is that to put yourself in? Oh yeah, and what about those who implied that Chapman lied to people about waiting to find a conferenced before going DI? That was motivated by wanting to do what was best for UND, I suppose. Here's another thing bugging me, there are plenty of arguments offered from UND people, but no conclusions drawn from them. I'd like to have more UND fans come on record and make a case for staying DII or going DI and back it up. -------------------------------- This rant brought to you by a couple cans of Mountain Dew and various candy bars. This is no way implies that I'm using the "junk food" defense as I sincerely enjoy being a pain in the ass from time to time.