tony

You misunderstood my analogy. It would be ludicrous to make the comparison you thought I was making. I'll clear it up. NDSU is like Churchill because he realized that Germany couldn't be appeased and that ignoring that fact until war was declared was a tactical mistake. Knowing this, Churchill proposed an appopriate course of action. Just to be extra clear: I am NOT saying that NDSU thinks that Germany is going to declare war on Europe and that going DI is the best way to prepare I believe that DII has changed and will continue to change in ways that hurt NDSU and help small schools. Going DI is a better course of action than ignoring this probability and hoping things turn out. Yeah, it'll be tough - blood, sweat, and tears all around, I'm sure. UND is like Chamberlain in my analogy because I think they are like Sicatoka and still believe that "DII can be saved" and that the flood of tiny schools aren't going to demand rule changes that are in the best interests of the majority of DII members. That makes no sense. Anyway, you were right - I was implying that UND has it's head in the sand about the future of DII - although I thought I was being clear to the point of saying it straight out. I'll qualify now. Anybody who thinks DII isn't going to continue to change to accomodate smaller and smaller schools might has well bet on passenger pigeons becoming the next white meat. Maybe Kupchella and Thomas realize that DII will continue to change but don't mind. That's a possibility because these changes are unlikely to do anything but put more emphasis on hockey. Either way, it would be foolish for anybody in UND's administration to criticize NDSU's decision wthout at least acknowledging that more downsizing of DII is on the way. PCM: for gosh sakes, it's not an on/off switch. Chapman was using the business model as an analogy he wasn't saying that NDSU should ignore it's mission because NDSU is a business. His whole argument was that it better serves the state to add those programs. You can disagree but *face it* avoiding program duplication is not NDSU's mission.

First of all, ScottM is taking some pretty serious guff here. I figure he's just young and brash. His perspective will probably change as he gets older. Now for Sicatoka. I have been paying attention the last 20 years. Lots of people say that college athletics are a business or should be run like a business. Saying it does not make it so. Lots of people are wrong every day, few are more wrong, both factually and philosophically, than those who say that college athletics are a business - unless they are speaking metaphorically. UND and NDSU athletics have aspects of businesses but, at their roots, both athletic departments are dependent parts of their universities. In any case, unless you believe that athletic departments should split completely off from their universities and become semi-pro, you are using the old "it is how the world works, it might be wrong but who am I to complain or even think about it?" argument. That is weak. I know the line between private and public sector is blurry (or non-existent) in Grand Forks , but UND athletics is a public sector operation, pure and simple, and must keep UND's overall mission in mind in all it does. If you really want to compare who has been paying attention or not the last twenty years, look at the state of DII and NDSU's attitude versus UND's. It's like comparing Churchill to Chamberlain

UND is part of state government and is not a business. As such, it is not fitting with their mission that they charge as much as the market will bear for the NDSU game. Suppose Grand Forks builds a waterpark using tax money, would it be fitting that they charge so much that only people like those who brag about spending $100 on Michigan game tickets can go? Likewise, UND has to balance their desire to squeeze every possible penny out of visiting fans with their overall mission. I don't think $27.50 is that outrageous but you can't judge this issue on purely economic grounds.

Haven't heard of the Seven Sisters or Mount Holyoke and think that MIT stands for Montana Institute of Technology? I keep forgetting that if I'm not talking about hockey (as if anybody would), I need to supply footnotes for UND grads to explain anything that would normally be considered common knowledge. As Mount Holyoke and her sisters will probably start showing up on UND's football schedule next year, you can decide whether they are cute for yourself.

I'd buy your analogy if NDSU is MIT. Of course, that would make UND one of the Seven Sisters, Mount Holyoke

airmail, point well taken. Did you mean my post lacked both hazy implications and smiley face icons and that when in Rome, I should write like the Romans do? BTW, I did think the comment about your ficticious neighbor over on Bisonville was pretty funny too.

Sicatoka, HAHAHAHAA! I only asked you what you meant. What we got here is a failure to communicate. Look at it from my perspective: you quoted me and then (it seemed to me) implied that, contrary to somebody's (whose?) opinion, UND's non-conference schedule wasn't the worst in the region. I wanted to know whether you thought I had said something like that. Your style of expressing yourself puts a burden on your readers, for they are forced to extrapolate your meaning from hazy implication and a series of smiley face icons I clarified my opinion: UND's non-conference schedule is the weakest in the conference. For example, what would happen if Montana played Mesa, UC Davis played Newberry, and Tusculum played Crookston? Ugly as those games would be, the the NCAA might end up calculating that UND's schedule is comparable (or even better) than NDSU's... IMO, they'd get a more fair rating by averaging existing computer rankings. As always with DII, the stress is not on fairness but on evening the playing field by putting bad teams into the playoffs at the expense of good teams. DII thinking: Your team is getting spanked in the playoffs? Well it's because the other teams are offering too many scholarships. Here, let's cut them by 5! Your team still losing? Let's cut them by 4 more! Strong teams from the same conference meeting in the championship game? Let's put them in the same bracket and have them play in the first two rounds. Still not happy? Let's move the MIAA and NCC into the same region! Still not happy? Let's put 20 teams in the playoffs, come up with a rating system that defies logic, and then shuffle the regions to make sure the weakest conferences are grouped together. If you're still not happy (and nothing short of being given a national championship will do that), we'll cut scholarships again this winter. Note: Just so you know - I'm not angry about this (don't read it with the angry voice). I think it's kind of funny. The beauty for you and UND about the non-conference schedule debate is that it doesn't really matter - it's just something to bicker about while we wait for the big game. If UND wins the games they should and they take care of business at home, they will get into the playoffs regardless of their strength of schedule, or lack thereof, and they will have a conference championship to boot.

Huh? Are you implying that I wrote something I didn't? UND has the weakest non-conference schedule in the conference, not the region. I don't even think I wrote that before because it'd be no fun for me unless there were UND fans disagreeing True, there were guys with UND-like monikers claiming that NDSU's non-conference schedule was weak, but I kinda thought those "UND fans" might really be NDSU fans posing as UND fans. If not, mocking somebody like that is kind of like UND scheduling schools that offer ten or so scholarships (i.e. embarrassing to all involved)

Edit: I had a big long post of how the rating system was supposed to work (strength of schedule is supposed to be one of seven equally-weighted criteria) but now looking at UND92,96's post I wonder what in the world the system really is. I have a feeling we'll hear more on this tomorrow. Central Missouri must be getting punished for having the weakest non-conference schedule in the region. Now seeing Jim's post, I better put back the original post: Primary criteria (from Greg D., DII Guru): 1. Strength of schedule (Division II only). 2. Won-lost record. Overall won-lost record. Division II overall won-lost record. In-region won-lost record. In-region road record. Won-lost record against nonconference regional opponents. 3. Record against ranked teams (last regional ranking). 4. Results against non-Division II teams. 5. Head-to-head competition. 6. Results against common opponents. 7. Eligibility and availability of student-athletes. Not a plug-in-the-numbers-and-out-pops-a-ranking system. It's just as subjective as before.

OK, I'll play nice. The number of the GF Public Library is 701-772-8116

DamStrait, I am not your momma. If you want me to do what any educated person should be able to do for themselves quite easily, then ask nicely If you live in Grand Forks, trot down to the library and look through May issues of the Forum and Herald. The dates of any articles would be right around May 20, 2002. I'm not sure whether reference librarians do this kind of thing, but this might be the kind of question they handle. Call 'em up and find out.

HAHAHAHAhA! Where to begin? Sicatoka, was that a yes or a no? In my book, you are saying, "No, UND shouldn't move up." It's like me saying I'll buy a Manhattan townhouse when somebody comes along and writes me an unsolicited check for $10 million dollars for just being charming old me. You have a good imagination, write me a scenario in which UND gets an invite from a conference that NDSU and SDSU aren't already a member of and give me a time frame that you are thinking of. You know what would have made your scenario work? A DI NCC. Bingo. UND would have had a conference, solving the major obstacle that UND faces in going DI... I mean besides having a President who is dead set against it, that is. I looked back at my source, and even Mankato's administration was open to the idea of a DI NCC. For inexplicable reasons, you think that this UND made a smart play nipping that in the bud. Now DamStrait, is that a dis-invitation? Oh no! Have Jim ban me but before start calling me a troll, why not do a search on all my posts. It's pretty easy: 1. Click Search. 2. Leave the keywords text box empty 3. In the Filter by Member Name text box enter 'tony' 4. Under "Search Where" click the Forum you want (football and DI-AA are where I post). 5. In the "Result Type", click the radio button by Show Results By Posts (that way you don't have to wade through the whole thread). What's the most egregious example of UND bashing you can find in the last, oh let's say 60 days? There are UND fans running down SDSU in a public, worldwide forum. Sure, I could let you do it without pointing out that it's a spiteful thing to do and turning the tables on you... but I'm not going to do so voluntarily.

Hey, I'm in a good mood. I kind of like yanking your chains, you griping about SDSU gave me an excuse. If you can't take it, you should lay off SDSU and NDSU for doing what (apparently) many UND folks think UND should do. Sicatoka, speak for yourself, if you don't want me to do it. When should UND go DI? In your prior post you said UND made the right decision shooting down a DI NCC. Are you saying UND should go DI but the NCC shouldn't? Forgive me for being confused...

PCM, ask around. The NCC voted on whether to go DI or not. USD, NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were for it. Augie, St. Cloud, Mankato, and presumably UN-O were against. UND lobbied against and voted against it. UND's vote was crucial. IMO, UND would have been better off taking a realistic look at where DII was going and bit the bullet. They didn't. That's all water under the bridge now. The Sicatoka, not to be obtuse, but suppose the superconferences break off, does this mean that NDSU or SDSU would want to go back to DII and try to outbid UND for the Crookston game? Besides, if I were you, I'd be more worried about how this affects hockey. If the super-duper-wonder-conferences break off, I doubt the remaining NCAA members are going to look kindly on letting them into the NCAA just for hockey or any other Olympic sports. IMO, NDSU and SDSU belong in the same division as Montana, Montana State, Maine, and Georgia Southern. IYO, UND belongs in the same conference as Newberry, Mesa State, and Crookston. Maybe we're both right

CoteauRinkRat, I can't help what emotion you read into my posts. Don't use your "hostility voice" when you're reading them and see if that helps. I'm not sure I understand the rest of your points. I can only speak for myself, certainly not for SDSU. I've never seen any indication that SDSU has had much interest in what UND thinks about their move after UND helped nix having a DI NCC. I listed the obvious problems with DII so that you could see what it is like to have UND's decision to stay in DII critiqued by an outsider. Now imagine that about 100 times over, and you'll have a good idea what people like me put up with. BTW, I was trying to be offensive, not defensive so you could see how how I view UND's concern over NDSU/SDSU moving up. To me the watering down of DII goes hand in hand with any criticism of them because obsessing about SDSU's methods ignores the larger picture - the decline of DII. And if you think DII was better 5-10 years ago, 10-20 years ago DII was better still. This coming year will probably see the fourth scholarship cut in that time period. This is total hyperbole (so dial it down), but a UND fan criticizing SDSU for the way they've handled their move to DI is kind of like a passenger on the Titanic scuttling the best and most seaworthy lifeboat (a DI NCC) and then criticizing a fellow passenger for getting into the next best lifeboat too quickly.

I do question the motiviation of UND fans and the administration and it is a HUGE issue for me.

I won't vilify you guys but I do roll my eyes every time UND fans express "legitimate concerns" about NDSU or SDSU moving to DI.

Thanks. Here's the trivia I've found so far: UND was the first team to play the Gophers in U of M's Memorial Stadium back in 1924. Eddie Cochems was a coach at UND who left to coach at Clemson 1906 and then went to St. Louis University where, according to Clemson, "...historians credit Cochems with being the first coach to use it [the forward pass] in a game. He taught his players to throw the ball with a spiral, rather than end-over-end."

I think he's looking for general purpose UND trivia - does UND ever put that kind of stuff in their pre-game press releases? BisonMav, do you have a link to that story?

Thanks UND92,96. The game WAS at NDSU. I only ran across this by accident several years ago and couldn't remember the reasons given for UND pulling out. I know that NDSU thumped UND. I think what happened was that UND said they weren't coming back to Fargo the next year because they were worried that Fargo people were too rowdy. NDSU decided not to go up to UND for the second game. They bickered for three years and then made up in 1909. Very timely trivia, I thought, for this year's game. It'd make a better story if it wa exactly 100 years ago but I'm sure there are parallels to our present day situation. Personally, I think the series is most likely to end in 2009 (as opposed to next year). ------------- CoteauRinkRat, I'm supposed to ask you nicely? HAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA! Squirt not those fiery tears of rage - I abase myself before thy presence and humbly beseech thy pardon. That better?

I got an email from a UND guy who needs some help coming up with trivia for the NDSU-UND game that he's hosting. Last year, I gave him the list of UND players in the pros and directed him to this site. You can get an idea of what he's looking for by following quote: I'm going to tell him about last time UND pulled out of the rivalry back in 1906. If you want UND's side of the story presented, you better do some research and chime in because the NDSU version is this: NDSU-UND played twice every year. In the first game in 1906 up in Grand Forks, NDSU won 32-4. UND then remembered that Fargo was a dangerous place and they backed out of the second game. This caused a feud that ended the rivalry for three more years. Don't really have any other NDSU trivia to give him.

Augie had 51 first half yards against a DIII team last week before coming alive in the second half. They have already lost to Northern State (SD). Hard to say where they rate with the opponents UND has faced so far... much better than Crookston, worse than Mesa. I'm thinking Newberryish.

As UND92,96 kind of pointed out, NDSU fans are getting "gouged" to a much greater extent than UND people. I think that is why people are upset in Fargo. Couple this with the last time UND had the game and a bunch of NDSU fans being told that the tickets they bought weren't any good but, "Hey, you can buy UND season tickets if you want", and some people are starting to see a pattern that may or may not be there (i.e. UND's administration being petty and somewhat spiteful). I'm not too worried about the ticket prices myself because there is precious little live entertainment that can be purchased for less than $30 anymore.

IMO, the single cheapest way to upgrade UND's schedule is to keep NDSU on it for as long as possible. Going DI alone doesn't guarantee an interesting football schedule - it just makes one easier to make.