SDSUFAN

Hey about a hat trick?

How can you ignore margins, gross profits, etc in any point. Taking in 5000 bucks does not mean much if it cost 6000 to sell the tickets manage the facility etc. Profits are relvanent in any analysis. Looks like Jim never went near the School of Business at UND.

Since the administrator chose to delete my prior message, I will try again. The article states facts as they have been reported over a period of time. Ralph's memory is not being dragged through the mud. Maybe UND should take a lesson from Augsburg College, those Free Lutherans surprised me that time. Keep Ralphs money and dump his name and the logo. Why Not. Honoring the Natives, What a laugh.

* UND's hockey gate in a year is more than all of NDSU's D-I sports combined will be. What is taken in at the gate is only a portion of one side of the equation. Operations and maintence costs are deducted from gate receipts, to determine margin. Margin being the other side of the equation. And what is known by the experts on this matter? Are these numbers published anywhere? How does revenue and cost stack up for one year? How much does hockey produce to support other sports at UND? If hockey is such a good deal, some one should be able to answer these questions.

star2city: Very funny. I am so glad that you have painted a bright picture for athletics at SDSU. Conspiracy no, internal jealousy from USD yes. Getting the Board of Regents to approve the move was not an easy task. It took homework and thats what happened and was shown at the public forum in Sioux Falls two weeks ago. To paint a picture of failure is your choice but I feel things will not be as desperate as you have tried to describe. One year from now and we are out in the cold? How do you know that will happen? How will UND vote on the NCC membership application by Bemiji State two years from now? Maybe that question is truly the future of the NCC.

Does the NCC have a future?

PCM: Thanks. Now I know. I really dont have any news on the grassy knoll or Jimmy Hoffa. No reason to speculate about Hoffa, he is in the concrete somewhere and I honestly believe there were several shots fired from the grass knoll. It had something to do with the 1960 election and winning Illinois. Joe Kennedy got to close to the wrong kind of friends in Chicago if you get the picture. If you dont get the picture I recommend the movie "Analize That" Billy Crystal and Robert DeNiro.

PCM: I am clueless, but since you have gotten so much smarter up their in the cold air of Grand Forks, you should be able to answer your own question. What the hell is a hat trick?

I just thought that I would give a little update on the petition leader here. Not that its important or not, but one of the things that Ms. Jost did not tell her signers besides having two nephews recruited by SDSU, is that her brother-in-law is Chad Lavin. Mr. Lavin is the head basketball coach at USD and though a quiet guy, he can be very sneaky. I will let others judge what influence he had on his sister-in-law, a very quiet scientist at SDSU. I have no proof, but am willing to bet he(LAVIN) was talking to Mandy Koupal and the Schooley gal from Watertown before they transferred to USD. The joke is on Lavin though, he thinks he has got SDSU with the tranfer of Koupal and they still lost to SDSU 2 of 3 times last year. This year SDSU-USD will fill both facilities and may out drawn the mens game. I take my JACKS in both games.

There was one time and a very signifcant time that the five hockey schools voted as a block. Last spring when President Miller of SDSU brought forward the proposal to move the NCC in mass to D1AA, the five hockey schools and Augustanta voted nyet in Russian, Nei in Norwegian and No in English.

I dont think anyone can read a great deal into a strategic plan. A good AD should have one in place and thats what appears UNK has done. What the reality at this moment in the athletic department is an entirely another matter. If UNK would make a run at the NCC, then they may have to have a special fund drive of some sort to meet the scholarship requirements of the NCC and other expenses. I wonder what would the travel cost currently in the RMAC would be as compared to the NCC. If they indicated that they were happy with the RMAC, some cost study may have been made and the results said stay with the RMAC. About 1990, I recall the NCAA North Central Region was held in Grand Forks. On the fan bus from SDSU was the former AD who knew the AD from Kearney. The AD from Kearney, experiencing the NCAA for the first time was disappointed that UNK did not get to host the regional. I forget now but the bid he submitted was very paltry and did not even come close to UND and SDSU. UND having a better record got to be the host. My point is that a bunch of RMAC are still in an NAIA mode of thinking when it comes to dollars. Seems like the last number I heard about UNK was 28 for football, but not positive. They might be close for football, but I wonder how much interest there is in Kearney. I stopped reading the Kearney Hub but their newspaper report is very good and if there was interest I am sure he would report it. I dont know how much the UNK athletic department gets from the Nebraska legislature, but they at least get funds to operate and maintain their facilities. Nebraska like every other state has budget deficits so they could hardly go to the legislature for help if thats what is needed.

I can only say that the mascot Jackrabbit is not offensive to Native Americans. What SDSU has or does not have in terms of Native American studies is a real red herring. Why is that Native Americans who are also UND students have come to SDSU to educate people about the offensive use of the logo and how offensive they have felt about the late great Ralph Engle$tad? Allowing the Lakota to perform a native dance on the ice of Ralph Eng$stad Arena is hardly an honor. I can NOT help people who want to deny subtle racism. So good luck UND.

Good for Marc Ranfranz. If he were to protest the logo, how long would he last on the team? Would he get playing time? So if does not protest then must be okay to use the logo. Here we go again down the path of denial. Have a nice trip. If you dont mean to be offensive to Native Americans, what do you mean? How is that Native Americans feel honored with your use of the logo? Ask a few of them on campus if they feel honored by your offensive use of the logo.

Riverman: Dont have a clue who Bucky 16 is and really dont care. So insult me if you if it makes you feel good.

Jim and Goon: Another thing, if I would rather read a good book than watch hockey, even if it was SDSU or UNO, how could I be jealous. I live less than 100 miles from Omaha and could watch hockey in Sioux Falls, Sioux City and Omaha. Not interested and not hardly jealous. If you refer to a friend with offensive nickname and the friend says to stop, would you not do that? Why throw the 12,000 number in here, it means nothing in the eyes of Native Americans. How many Native American hockey players do you have? Ask your native americans friends are they honored by your logo? If so why is this small vocal minority have two web sites about your wonderful UND? When will you thick-head Norskies and Polocks get a clue on this issue? I guess you are much like Trent Lott, who says he did not mean to be racist with his comments at Strom Thurmonds Birthday Party. Joe Madison African-American who was on CSPAN'S Washington Journal last Friday raise this question about Trent Lott, and its fitting to UND denial of the offensiveness of use of the logo. Joe's question was" If Lott did not mean to be racist, what then did he mean? If The UND Logo is not meant to be offensive, then what does it mean?

Oh I get it. 12000 Beer sloshing, and hockey hungry fans cant be wrong. And do these 12,000 run the entire state of North Dakota? Jealous of beer sloshing hockey fans. No way Jose. Going D1, did you not get the message Jim and Goon?

This thread is about denial. Does seven D1 Hockey national championships justify this denial?

I believe Lennon and his reasons for withdrawing. Without knowing who the next president is at Sac State is a big concern. With so many state supported schools in California, its hard to say who will get the president job and if state budgets are tight in California, I would not expect a big move to improve athletics. Without the President and support with athletic dollars who can be sucessful? Dale Lennon is a class guy and will do well where-ever and and when-ever his trail leads him. See I said something nice about UND.

Winona location is not bad at all. It would be more central than Chadron or Kearney, Nebraska. Winona is one NSIC member that could step up and maybe be a good member of the NCC. I would think they would be as attractive as the U of Mary. I think its a matter of have a good programs for 7 sports in men and women that would gain admission. WSU would probably have to get their alums and business community more committed than what they are now. Thats not always easy. Prior to 1962, NDSU did not have their community and alums involved and with the President making a committment to winning after a 0-10 football season things began to change. The formation of the Teamakers involved alums and the Fargo-Moorhead business community. When you have unfunded programs, you just can not expect to be sucessful, especially in the NCC. Thats why SDSU has had only two seasons with 8 wins or more since 1963. Football has been subordinate to women sports and other sports in the needed funding. I not sure what the dollar amount of the football budget is at SDSU, but its less than NDSU and UND. We have been able to beat both in one season only once or twice since 1963. Dollars are necessary to be sucessful.

Diggerdan: You would have to meet the General to understand, she is quite positive in her thinking and had to as she was the first woman to wear a star on her shoulders in the US Army. I been told she was a person who got things done in the military. She is very positive in her outlook. Yes the analogy is a little wild but General Williamson made her point to the regents and wanted to put the sense of doubt by the Board of Regents aside. The analogy did not harm as I see it now. The moral was about fear and doubts. The Board of Regents had that since Mr. Jewett was skeptical as he said.

What really makes this board interesting is how the UND fans are constantly looking for distractors. Maybe they should worry about the next flood instead about JBB's spelling.

Jim: Its about the rivalry that Dr Oien was chastised for no longer existing between Augustana, USD and SDSU. I think Jewett's remarks kind of show the anxiety that is felt in Vermillion and has been felt there since the NCC spring meeting when President Miller jumped in bed with President Chapman. No sexual impropriety implied here, except that in working with NDSU, that made Augustanta and USD both sit and take notice. They expected to SDSU to be laughed into shame with grandiose dare of wanting to study a move to D1. Also most of Jewetts law clients are NSU grads and live in Aberdeen. Another pressure for Mr. Jewett. USD and NSU though spinning a different story are threaten about SDSU being sucessful in their move to D1. They stand to lose in donations and students within South Dakota with SDSU'S move to D1. Why are there so many naysayers on this board and else where especially about the marketing study? Maybe we can fly. See below. As far as me being the only one who had doubts about the Board of Regents, I want to type in a column from The Brookings Register December 11, 2002. Chuck Cecil is a SDSU grad and a former owner of several small weekly newspapers. Chuck also worked as a writer for Former SDSU and Late President Hilton M. Briggs, who unfortunately was killed in a car accident last year and was driving at the age of 89. Briggs was a shrewed farm boy from Iowa and that a whole another story. He is part of the reason SDSU is in a position to consider D1 as he was president from 1958 to 1975. Briggs is known for the quotation when when asked what his opinion was off the Board Of Regents idea of moving the SDSU College of Engineering to Rapid City and the School of Mines. Briggs said" It make about as much sense as castrating your prize beef bull." Since Cecil's column Stubble Mulch is not on the web, I will share it with you and tell me that others were not concerned about the board of regents and their connections with USD and the possible disapproval of the D-1 move. Its very political, when you have to deal with the Board of Regents and have a four term Governor who can stack the board with all his cronies and in effect give the governor controll over all six state assisted universities. The Board or Regents and their skewed decisions some times makes about as much sense as the recent election in Iraq. I believe Saddam got 99.9% of the popular vote. Here is Cecil's column: Regents should give Division I move a chance By Chuck Cecil. A week ago I sat through nearly five hours of hearings in Sioux Falls as SDSU Division 1 plans were presented to the Board of Regents. The meeting was in the new building on the Southwest Vo-tech campus whose name is a collection of the intitials of the University of South Dakota, South Dakota State University and Dakota State University...USDSDSUDSU or something like that. It desperately needs a name people can pronounce. I suggest Higher Education Center. You would have been extremely impressed with the group who spoke in favor of the university's commendable effort to grow with the times and to prepare for the future. Al Tuntland, a personable, practical and very, very sucessful businessman whose hometown is Brandon, but who now lives in Minnesota, is an SDSU alumus and leader of the prestigous SDSU Foundation. He told the regents in a can-do review that the foundation and other friends of the university will raise the necessary funds for the move just as they have for many other campus projects. He urged the Regents to approve the plan. He said that if one does not have the freedom to fail, then there is no chance to suceed. Another sucessful businessman, Al Kurtenbach, president of Daktronic, Inc, of Brookings hit the mark when he opined that we South Dakotans are seriously afflicted with low self-esteem. " I think it serves as a handy excuse not to do anything" Kurtenbach said. I liked that. Cindy Mydland, president of Wells Fargo Bank in Brookings had much the same message. She said South Dakotans often spend too much time with their heads down, looking at their shoes." SDSU President Peggy Miller started the long day off with a urging to "Go Team" followed by excellent comments about how the move fits into the university's overall plan to provide quality education. She and her staff and hundreds of others studied the D-1 issue almost to death. They could refute every arguement against it but those present who want the past to return and the present to stay just as it is. She was followed by an "expert" the Regents (Gerdy) asked to review SDSU's documents. He was a professional naysayer and as expected, his was a negative reaction. He started out by forming the letter "T" with his hands and urged "time out", suggesting the Regents go slow. So when Keith Jensen of Brookings, a former SDSU Alumni Director, stepped forward to express his support for the proposed move, he seized upon the "go team" and "time out" analogies. He told the regents as that as they review the SDSU study, they are akin to the professional football offical who peers into the instant replay machine at field side when a call has been questioned. Often, when the replay fails to show the results one way or another, the offical says there is "no disputable evidence" and their initial call stands. Jensen told the regents that they review the documents just as an offical would review the instant replay, they must find "indisputable evidence" that what is contained in the SDSU study isn't true before making their final call. If there is "no indisputable evidence" to the contrary, he told them then it was their duty to make the right call. Another SDSU graduate, Myrna Williamson, now retired and living in Sioux Falls, was the Army's first female general. She made her point and I think, it summed up the the message of the day with a story. "The master" was standing at the edge of a cliff. Behind him were the people. "Come closer the master urged. But they held back and shied away, afraid of falling. Again they were admonished to come closer to the edge. Finally, in slow, mincing steps, they cautiously edged forward and looked down into the dark abyss. Then master pushed them off. But they didn't fall. They flew. Gen. Williamson and the others that spoke so eloquently in favor of the move to Division 1 asked the Board of Regents to give SDSU an opportunity to fly. We think they will. We'll know later this week. END OF CECIL COLUMN. What interesting here is none of Cecil's observations except Kurtenbach's were reported by the Argus reports. I wonder why. I suspect these observations would detract from the negative preception that the Argus Leader wanted to report. Even Chuck who has a great sense of humor was not totally convinced the Regents would give a green light. Note he says "We think they will." That indicates the same doubts I had about the Board of Regents. Of the individual regents who I got know only at their website, the big surprises where the young law student from USD who is part of the board and Pat Ledrum from Rapid City. Pat has fought SDSU on other issues. For those two to vote in favor was indeed a pleasant surprise. Regent Norris from Spearfish has a degree from NDSU so his yes vote was also a welcome. Nef from Milbank has a honorary degree from SDSU so he could hardly look the other way on this issue and Rentchler or something like that from Sioux Falls, was a surprise from an Argus quoted reaction in October. He move from neutral to in favor. So it was a toss-up call at best and there were probably no "for sure" votes except for Nef. The former legislator and farmer from Britton voted no and I guess we forgot to invite him to the Beef Bowl and Pork Classic as he does not now appear to be a big SDSU fan. He graduated from Huron College where more ineligible basketball player have participated then all the schools in the Dakota's combined. I guess he must have roomed with one at Huron maybe thats why he has such a hard on for athletics and SDSU. The three way rivilary of SDSU-USD-Auguustana has an affect on Regents and how they preceive things. Another point is the restrictions adopted by the Regents were offered initially by Dr. Oien and President Miller. The Regents only adopted their work. It was not the Regents who came up with the orginal idea. I guess they could have voted it down and let the chips fall where they may. With four of the members having degrees from USD, they were put in a tough spot. If they voted in the affirmative, they shoot their alma mater in a foot. If they stand in the way of SDSU, then there is preception of being unfair. So I am hardly the only person who doubted that the Regents would approve the D-1 move. If I am the only one as Jim Dahl implies, then none of the Foundation heavies would have taken time off to come and testified in Sioux Falls last week.

Jim: It was not a given that the Board of Regents would approve the move. Its a surprise that they did.

I am not surprised by Jewett's comments and his ties to USD pretty well sum it up. He betting on failure, and should we SDSU people be surprised by his attitude. What UND fans dont know is that he has hauled Wild Bill Janklow's water for a long time. Janklow's days as governor are over next month. Maybe Jewett will be gone from the BOR too. Plus he is trying to placate the people in his community of residence, namely Aberdeen and NSU with comments. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

star2city: The delays in the dates have to do with review of the studies that were made and opportunity to give the constituents the information about the move. I see no reason to be overly concerned about the delays as I believe SDSU wants to do this right and we will. We wont be status quo like UND and USD. The move will happen its a matter of getting all the small problems resolved like finding a conference. The move will happen. The delays are not a reason to declare failure. In fact I would expect a bigger delay if the Board of Regents disapprove the move later this week. Even if the move is disapproved, its not the end by any means. Yes we will probably be in the NCC through 2005 and could be later. I dont see that as a problem. At least we have plan. At UND you are doing nothing and could that be a sign of being clueless? What is the President doing to promote economic development besides expanding the bureacracy of SDSU? I am not sure, but the CEO of Daktronics is working on an industrial park concept that will be connected to SDSU. Brookings has gained 2000 manufacturing jobs in the past five years according to the Economic Development paper from the City of Brookings. Brookings was about 6000 when I was growing up and had no more than 2000 students. When I left in 1965 for the military service, the enrollment was maybe 4200 and Brookings had no industry period. In the 1970'S 3M and a few other firms move in and the community has changed since. I believe the article said the current population is 18600 excluding the students so with them its about 28,000 and growing. Growth has been slow but constant. I think we have a bright future without depending on Canada for development. As far as Sioux Falls, being 50 miles south and accessable on I-29, its part of the market as defined in the both of the studies. Carr & Associates had made this recommendation about playing games in Sioux Falls and I have not read the marketing report but I would not be surprised if they made the same recommendation. We have no problem selling out to Sioux Falls interests. We need them to make this move work. Some of the movers and shakers on the foundation board live and work in Sioux Falls. SDSU is a land grant college that serves the entire State, and why should we not want to get Sioux Falls as part of the Market. We are not talking Fargo and how Grand Forks preceives Fargo. USD is located in Vermillion and not Sioux Falls. If USD was in Sioux Falls, it might be different. Sioux Falls does not support Augustana worth a damn, despite all they have tried to do. This seems like not a disrespectful question but just a negative question that would support the scheme of failure in your mind. As far as the Hilarious articles that you cited, I did read them and "great pie in the sky" was my conclusion. The City of Grand Forks has to make all sorts of concessions in the form of taxes and promotion to Canada. Does not sound to great to me. Winnipeg is further from Grand Forks than Brookings is from Sioux Falls. With Winnipeg having its own entertainment spots, why would they want to come to Grand Forks? If they are going to states, why not go big time and go to the Twin Cities. I found out a few years back that happens a great deal as a plane I was on from Chicago to Grand Forks was empty until I picked up my connecting flight from Mpls to GF. All of a sudden a large group of Canucks filled the plane and they all stayed on to make the connection to Winnepeg. Another thing, you have the Hilarious center, REA and the FargoDome now competing for an AeroSMith Concert and some one is taking it in the shorts to get the concert. Dont you think this situation is a bit risky? Riverman: Do you know what an endowment is? I dont think so. The building of REA will look a little different 30 years from now and by then a zillion ice arena's will have been built that out shine your facility. Will the ghost of Ralph be around to refurbish it? I dont think so. The 2.5 million I was referring to was endowed funds of which the prinicpal can not be spent so 30 year from now when the REA is outdated and decaying the 2.5 million at SDSU will still be earning cash for scholarships. Thats what I meant oh clueless riverman.