KnowtheFacts

1. I don't understand why the Sioux should be a unique microcosm of Native American opinions nationwide. Are all Europeans the same? Do their opinions differ from country to country? Would a Polish person necessisarily object to an Irish stereotype? Native Americans are not just one group of people, although that is how America has categorized them. There are over 450 some recognized tribes (Im not sure of the exact number) and they all have different cultures. How can you assume that a Pima Indian in Arizona (or anyone anywhere else for that matter) would have any opinion at all about the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. ESPECIALLY if he or she knows little to nothing about the history of its use here at UND? 2. So the opinions of the people are less important than the opinions of their elected leaders? You are going in circles. We elect leaders in this country to make decisions for us based on facts and public opinion. Sometimes the public doesnt have all the time to research and be educated on a topic like our legistators. Im not all for the political system persay but that is what it is designed for. We dont get to attend all the hearings about a specific topic and we rely on our leaders to make an *informed* decision. Not just a decision based on opinions. 3. I'm aware of statistics, but of the polls I mentioned I haven't seen anyone object to the validity of the studies. If you find it, I'm sure you'll let us know. Here's an article for you: >>> Pro-Chief polls are dubious Letter | The Daily Illini Published Friday, March 19, 2004 Again and again, I am cited the statistic purported by the Peter Harris Research Group and Sports Illustrated that claims 81 percent of polled Native Americans do not mind the use of Indian mascots. I'd like to call to mind some serious doubts regarding the integrity of these poll results. No information is disclosed within the Sports Illustrated article regarding how the poll was conducted, how the questions were worded, how subjects were approached, etc. Anyone who has taken a stats class knows the unbelievable capacity for bias and misrepresentation in statistics (whether intentional or not). I scoured the Internet looking for detailed information about the study, only to find nothing. Anyone can come up with statistics to back their claim, but not anyone can come up with valid statistics. Here's another mascot-related statistic for you all. In the August of 2001 issue of Indian Country Today, the editors reported that 81 percent of those polled "indicated use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans." (No it's not a typo, 81 percent is the number here, too). Hmmm, statistics are shady business indeed! However, when all Native American groups have been quite vocal against the use of Indian mascots, I must admit I have an inclination to believe the Indian Country Today poll over its Sports Illustrated counterpart. The bottom line is that it is tremendously hypocritical for a person to quote the pro-mascot poll while ignoring the anti-mascot poll. The anti-mascot poll has the vocal support of Native American Groups across the nation. But where are all those Native Americans who want to continue using Indian names? If they exist in majority, and I doubt they do, they certainly aren't making themselves heard. <<<

Awesome, I like that. Also I like Sun Dogs

1. Please tell me why you think the name honors Native Americans. Please be specific (for example I hear lots of people say they are more educated about Sioux culture but what does that mean?) 2. The Sioux Tribes never asked UND to use their name. -At one point some individuals from one tribe "gave permission" but they had no authority to do so. -Also all but one SIOUX Tribe (only the smallest tribe/Flandreau) and many other North Dakota tribes have written formal resolutions asking for the "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo to be changed. Here is the link to some of those resolutions (you'll have to cut and paste): http://www.UND.edu/org/bridges/index2.html -In the mid-1930's a student wrote to the Dakota Student Proposing that UND change its name to the Sioux - From what I read in the Paper they were referring to themselves as the *Nodaks* at the time. His reasons were because the Sioux would be a good opponent for the bison and it had more potential for rhyming in cheers and slogans. There was NO mention of honor. Remember at that time in this country Native Americans were not even considered citizens and didnt have the right to vote. You can bet there were no native american students on campus at the time. 3. I can guarantee that even if the UND were the Flickertails, No tribe would ask to become a stereotyped mascot for a non-tribal college. There are groups all around the country working to change the pattern that the "white people" have created. ???Danged if we do and danged if we don't. How can you even try to set the "white people" up as the victim? I have so much to say, but really you need to read some books about Racism and the History of how American settlers treated the indigenous people. (Watching "Into the West" doesn't count) I have recommendations if you are interested.

Okay Espninsider, let me be more specific as you found the one little tiny thing I didnt clarify without responding to the entirety of what I was saying. "have cheers that dont offend the people we purport to honor."

Where have you been? There is a time for listening to others, but there is a time when you must be uncompromising as well. Was Ghandi a "whiner" because he didnt always get his way? And Martin Luther King Jr., should he have spent more time "listening to others" and "compromising" so that black people would still be trying to get out from under White oppression? I agree that respect is not an automatic thing, however when you *already claim to be respecting someone*. You can't also turn around and cuss out their children (I've seen it happen on the UND campus) and you cant tell someone you say you respect that their opinions dont matter and to quit whining. (im not saying that you have done this, but I do know that Native American students get a lot of grief whether or not they have an opinion about the logo). If I respect you then I will also listen to you and be willing to discuss your ideas and feelings, not to discount them. Ive been reading these threads and GK has added a lot of factual information that no one really acknowleges. Instead they resort to personal attacks. Why don't *you* start listening for once?

Think Quick. What was UND's old name? Do you remember, or did you have to go look it up. New traditions will eventually replace the old ones. And there will still be hockey fans cheering their team. Did you know that in the 1930's when UND Students changed the name to Sioux that There was a huge opposition? The main reason for the opposition was that there was a TRADITION at the school that they had and didn't want changed. People were happy with the mascot/logo/name and didnt want it changed. If it can change once and succeed, it can change again. And so much for the better. If we had a different logo/theme, we could have a mascot, have cheers that don't offend, not worry about NCAA championship games, we could do so much more....

You can keep a personal score if you like, but that only counts for YOUR experience. You forget that almost ALL of the Sioux Tribes have asked for UND to change its logo. (The only tribe abstaining happens to be the smallest one, representing about 600 people). This isn't about a few people here and there who like or don't like the name. That just isn't how our democratic nation is run. I've heard the argument that Native people need to get together and agree on the issue. That is so ridiculous. Do Americans unanimously agree on all issues? NO! That is why we have elected officials. They are responsible for determining the needs and wants of their constituents. So it is with the Sioux Tribal Governments. And their decisions are that their SIOUX constituents do not want UND to use their name or identity as the school logo.