KnowtheFacts

Hello! The answer is in the poll itself: "Do you hope that North Dakota continues to win appeals to be allowed to use a Native American nickname and logo?" what appeal has UND won? Nothing yet.

Could you point out an example of a state-run university in this region that has more resolutions from tribes asking for the discontinuation of its nickname and logo? The only way UND can acknowlege the existence and heritage of American Indians is if they get to use them as a logo? Other schools in this region do have programming for American Indians. However, they dont feel like they have to wear it on their shirt like a trophy.

You dont have to pay for them. Just acknowlege that it happened and *recently*. Of course you werent around to spread false information or vote for extermination-type policies. You werent around to buy up land that was taken from Natives and offered up for sale. Maybe you werent around to see kids taken from their families to be *educated* the white way. BUT you are here NOW and you can do things today, that can change -for the better- the problems that resulted from these things. (Im not saying it all is due to the nickname at UND. I do think the NICK is one thing that resulted from bad decisionmaking in the past.) Crime drugs poverty, hell those are not easy issues to solve. The logo and nickname at UND - easy to change - except for those who cant or wont see the big picture.

wow! thats pretty optimistic. However, I dont think the benefits will be that obvious to the people the logo/nickname does not effect negatively. I do think however that when the logo/nick is changed, the Sioux tribes may finally feel a bit honored. - you know that UND finally listened to their multiple requests to remove the logo and nick out of respect for their culture. Maybe American Indians on this campus wont feel spotlighted everytime UND-anything is brought up as a topic. Maybe UND can do some real good for the people in the surrounding communities that are American Indian instead of using them as examples of how they are being "honored". And hey, if BananaSlugs can be successful, so can Turnips.

I dare you to find the word "support" in that resolution. It simply is not there. the wording says "as long as something positive comes from this controversy, they are not opposed...." Has anyone here actually read the resolution?

My grandfather was not white he is also Mexican. He was so ashamed of the way his mother lived her life he turned around and "succeeded" the american way. He also refused to teach his children their culture or their language so they could be more American and no accent. So, although I do respect him because he is my Grandfather, I don't respect his way of thinking. Other thoughts.... If all the American Indians on the reservation move to the jobs elsewhere, then guess who is left on the rez. Yep, the people that can't afford to move away, or do what you just said. Move all the educated and work-qualified people away, brilliant. That concept you presented only makes the conditions on the reservation worse than they already are. I never said that "without government aid, they cant better their lives". In fact I said the opposite. I said we need to get off the Gov. help and find a way to be self sufficient. That does not eliminate the fact that the aid is not welfare, but a treaty promise for the taking of Indian Land. What the hell does it matter what I look like? There are millions of Mexican-Americans in the US that dont "look" like Dr. Yolanda Chavez Leyva. There are also lots of Natives that dont "look' Native and Blacks that dont "look" Black. So what. You make lots of assumptions about what I have done and am doing for other people. You only get so much information from your little private eye company you use to spy on me and my family. Just because we talk about Native American issues and the logo here (that is the topic of this board) doesnt mean that I can only focus on this one issue. You are still confused about the logo thing as far as what I am saying. I dont think the logo has ruined anyone's life directly - well maybe the people who have been assaulted and called names - but I dont think that ruined their entire life. I think the logo/nickname is a direct result of racist attitudes - hidden or not- in this community. As I stated in my previous post, I think the logo and the people who promote it, do not consider that this name is the name of a race of people. A race of people who strongly object to their name and culture being used as a theme for an athletic team. Frankly as a Mexican American - I think that it is a shame that Mexican culture in the eyes of most white americans has been reduced to eating Mexican food and celebrating Cinco de Mayo a holiday most people dont even know why it is a holiday. However, we are fortunate not to have a public institution named the Fighting Hispanics who would use the culture and its stereotypes to make a cutesy theme for their athletic team. If you like the Fighting Gonzalez, then you also have to live with people wearing Sombreros and Panchos to games, and pretending to be something they are not. Will *that* further the cause of Mexican Migrant workers? probably not.

Sioucia you disgust me. You are friggin delusional. You have the same mentality displayed by the California Governer and also my grandfather. Woop de friggin do. You did well for yourself so why cant everyone else do the same. Pull up your bootstraps and get to work. And by the way, you're on your own. I did it myself and so can you. There are other facors you are not considering such as poor health, care of other family members, young children to be cared for, disability, to name a few. Damn right some people are lazy, and some people manipulate the system. But that is not everyone, maybe as rare as your GF racists. I really think people are doing the best they can with what they have. There *are* actually Indians that work for a living and dont get government aid. I also think bitching at them to work harder is not the solution. I also dont think pumping money at tribes is the solution. I never said that in my post. One other difference is that the United States never signed a treaty with your family saying that they would provide food and healthcare to them and their descendants. This is the case with American Indians. They have every right to expect that from the Government. I think the Government did a piss poor job of their side of the agreement. I also think that we need to help the tribes get off of the Government help and learn to be self-sufficient. Some tribes have done really well, but some remote tribes have had a harder time. I was never making racist comments at you. I was using sarcasm and trying to prove a point. My Grandmother came from Mexico herself, so why would I bash my own race? Obviously the meaning of that conversation was lost to you. Well actually, it wasnt. You were offended. And similar types of comments about Native Americans are said and people dont expect *them* to be offended. Since were talking about family... When my grandmother came from mexico she worked hard too.. But instead of being selfish and only focusing on herself and her own, she continued to give to others and help people in need. She lived poor and died poor. Im very proud of the way she lived her life. There is nothing wrong with being poor. There *is* something wrong with being well-to-do and bitching about the poor folks that cant help themselves. Im sick of your selfish attitude. Stay out of my conversations. This conversation has everything to do with the Fighting Sioux Logo. The United States has taken and taken from these people. They took their land, they took their children, they took some more land, they took their food, they took their leaders, they took the people likely to succeed and moved them away from the reservations that so badly needed them, they took everything. Now you and other selfish wannabes want to take their identity, their very name from them. Get a book and learn something about the people you say you emulate, maybe you can learn a thing or two. See ya later, I'm off of break now and gotta get back to School. You know so I can get a job and you can quit whining.

Perhaps you can provide the link to your imaginary resolution. The one that UND cited and the link I provided is the one that UND is using in their appeal. The link is from UND's website. Some reporter you are. You just make up your information if you dont like the real stuff. go back and read the article YOU wrote. http://www.uscho.com/news/id,11102/NorthDa...NCAAAppeal.html

Thanks for helping search the records. I often hear it spoken, but have never been given any solid evidence that it happened. I understand that this is the best way for you all to keep the "Fighting Sioux" name. I really think these are great ideas. Why not use our vast university resources as you suggested above to do something better for Native American Families and Kids? Thats great, I have no objection. But why does that improvement in the lives of others have to come with a price. That price being the sell out of culture for some real help. You guys all think is is so easy to separate hockey from real Indian culture. Yeah on the surface, sure. However it runs deeper than that for Indian people. With tribes being so close by, dont you think it would be easy to hire a fluent Lakota speaker to actually teach the Lakota Language classes? Why is the best candidate a guy from Sweden who cant even pronounce the words correctly? I know we were all horrified to hear about the Swastika and racist comments displayed on the GF synagogue, but why are the reactions so different when we hear about racist comments hurled at Native American students, egged tipis, and graffiti at the Native American Center? Well, we must be making that stuff up. Just a few ignorant people. Well UND isnt the Fighting Jews, where we can claim better respect an knowlege for those people. UND is the "Fighting Sioux." This town should be less racist toward Native Americans. G-Forkers are so proud of "their" indian heritage, fascinated by it. But have no understanding of it. Worse -no desire to understand it. Only to assimilate what they want and move on. Dreamcatchers on their rear-view mirrors and a indian-looking face on their jersey. Maybe some cultures are okay with their culture being raped and slandered. The Native People are not. They are still fighting to preserve their culture and way of life. In fact, if they don't adhere to certain criteria (IE preserving their language, traditions...), then the US Government will cease to recognize the tribal government and all that is left will be taken too. ... What other culture or race of people has to prove who they are to claim it? Native Tribes can't afford to give away their culture to greedy self-serving entities such as UND. It is easy for someone with a degree and a nice paying job who can afford to buy whatever the heck they want on e-bay to say "get up off your ass, quit feeling sorry for yourself and do something with your life". The system in place for helping people get off their ass, sucks. In addition, it is no secret that both medicaid and IHS are seriouslly underfunded, as well as most Indian Tribes. If you live where there is no work and the only work is underfunded and laying people off.... How do you go to work when you cant afford to put your kids in daycare? How do you get moving when there are balls and chains around your feet? In this damn capitalistic and greedy country, the only way to get real help is to sell out - something I hope these tribes never do. There is money supposedly in trust that the US government tried to buy off the Black Hills in SD. The Sioux never accepted the money, but the greedy US moved in and took it anyway. It is the principle of the matter. Giving a university permission to display their culture through a medium that has nothing to do with Indian culture at all is not the solution. That being said, what will you do? Are you going to go start a program in Ft. Yates, call it the Fighting Sioux kids club, and then when kids come because it is the only decent thing to do after school, claim that these people really do love the "Fighting Sioux"? How about we offer free hockey tickets to Spirit Lake tribal members, maybe something they wouldn't spend their hard earned money on otherwise, or kids whose parents could never afford a club membership just to see a college hockey game. Then they can see for themselves how non-hostile the athletic environment really is. (At the same time the crowds can point them out and say - Hey look, not all Indians are against the name). It sounds like a good idea, but it should have already happened if it was going to. I think your opportunity for rallying and well-doing has come and gone. Right now acts like you suggested are pretty much going to just look like bribes. We have lots of programs already actually. For example INMED. I have heard lots of inaccurate comments about this program, but I dont believe I had responded to any. It is a government funded program, based on similar programs at other colleges. It was started by a Native American and is run by Native Americans. The grant money funds the salaries and space in the Medical School. The deal is that UND has 50 slots for med students (maybe a few more now) However, they agreed to take on additional students above and beyond those designated spots for Tribally Enrolled students. These students are subjected to the same admission policies as everyone else. The only differences are that 1. they must be tribally enrolled and 2. they dont have to be from North Dakota, Minnesota, or WICHE states. Having gone through the admission process, I know that most State-run Medical Schools only accept Residents. UND has a few slots for Minnesota residents by agreement and also WICHE which is a program to help students from states with none or 1 medical school increase their opportunities for acceptance. (sorry, this is a tangent i guess, but I dont want to erase it). Besides Medical Students, INMED serves all the native students of UND who are interested in or pursuing a medically related career. So UND brags about INMED. Sure it's a great program. BTW they are opposed to the nickname. However UND cant leave it at: INMED is an awesome program we have here due to native american participation and initiative. No, they must try to link it somehow to the Fighting Sioux nickname. INMED can stand on its own, UND doesnt need to say or imply that INMED is here because of a nickname. That's like saying there is a Wilderness Studies Program at the University of Montana just because their nickname is the Grizzlies. Maybe it is because there is lots of wilderness around. Maybe UND has lots of Indian-related programs around because this state has a high proportion of Native Americans. One reservation being a mere 2 hours away. There is more to this university than the nickname. If UND cant stand without the "Fighting Sioux" nickname then God HELP the "Fighting Sioux" sorry i am so scatterbrained. I hope you get the idea of what i am saying though. I really dont think there an easy solution that pleases everyone such as you are suggesting. I dont think we have to polarize ourselves anymore. I think the easiest solution is to recognize the voices of the Tribal Governments (can't miss the opportunity to say - Almost ALL of the Sioux tribes are officially against the use of the "fighting Sioux" nickname - I think only Flandreau and Spirit Lake have not taken a stand) and agree that the name should be changed before any more harm is done.

I dont have to spin it, the wording is right out of the resolution itself.

dear sir, Please share your citations/references or copies of these documents. I am quite interested in what actually happened and not just hearsay surrounding this issue. According to even the UND appeal to the NCAA their documentaion of elder permission was not until sometime in or after the 60's. I am also curious about your statement "(in the 1930's)". If you really had documentation you would know that the name was changed in 1930. period. I am a skeptic by nature so forgive me if my comments seem harsh. Where did you see these celebratory pictures from Ft. Yates? is there some sort of something in the images that demonstrate that the celebration is related to the Sioux nickname? Please share your hard documentation as it sounds like it could solve a lot of questions for all of us.

Correction. As of right now, one of the three Sioux tribes in North Dakota is officially on record as not opposing UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname under certain conditions that apparently have not been met. http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/12519481.htm http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/12758900.htm this last one is the actual text of the document/resolution. http://www.universityrelations.UND.edu/log...on%20_large.pdf

If you go the the NCAA website there is a detailed explanation of why UND lost its appeal. Besides the 3 Sioux nations in North Dakota, There are also many more Sioux tribes in South Dakota that have official resolutions in place objecting to the nickname. The NCAA statement also states that the 5 United Tribes of North Dakota (which includes the 3 Sioux tribes in ND) issued a resolution in favor of changing the nickname. UND was not given permission in the 30's by anyone to use the "Sioux" name. I would question the information you have because "Fighting" was not added until much later. I havent found out exactly when yet, but it was not until after the elimination of the "Sammy Sioux" nickname/logo. As far as people commenting on permission. I heard that a group of elders came up at some point and gave their blessing/permission whatever, but it was not given by a tribal leadership/government entity. I looked at the Dakota Student newspapers from the fifties when it supposedly took place, but I couldn't find anything about it. I didn't find much info in the Herald archives, but if you go to the Special Collections in the Chester Fritz Library, there is lots to be found in the Dakota Student Microfiches. I did manage to print out the ones related to the changing of the nickname from Nodaks/Flickertails to Sioux if you are interested. It was September of 1930 that the name change took place, just in time for Homecoming to be portrayed as a Pow-Wow, the Homecoming King to become a "Chief", and the freshman to be referred to as Papooses... Your final questions answer is that this has been an ongoing issue at UND since the name was changed to "Sioux". However, most of the information related to actual protesters and people for changing the name begins about the same time that Native American Students first started attending the school, which was in the 60's I believe. good luck in your quest for factual information. If you manage to find some solid documentation of the "elder permission" thing, could you let me know? I would like to know what actually happened, by who and when. thanks.

yeah, okay.

Here's a list of what I have heard on this website so far..Threats, arguments, and excuses... However I agree that if it is for a class at UND, you might want to check with the prof. as most English and Speech classes have banned the topic altogether. 1. If the Name changes, then people will forget about the Sioux culture 2. The name at UND keeps people educated about the Sioux 3. If the Name goes than so does your free schooling 4. Change the Name and no more funding for your Native American Programs 5. I thought "Sioux" was a slanderous word and the Lakota/Nakota/Dakota didnt want to be associated with it anyway. 6. What about the Fighting Irish, the Vikings, the Vandals, Aztecs......They aren't offended! 7. How will this help the poverty/education/health situation on reservations? 8. Dont you have something better to worry about like alcoholism, drugs, crime, teenage pregnancy, diabetes??.... 9. What about Sioux Falls, Sioux City, Indianapolis..... 10. If we change the Indian-related nicknames and logos what next? Peta should be up in arms about animals being degraded as mascots.... 11. What about all those polls?? 12. Yeah those tribal resolutions are made by corrupt politicians and only represent very few pro-change activists 13. How come I only see one or two natives at protests and mostly white people? Most of the people against the name on this campus are white professors. 14. We are Honoring you! 15. This campus is a shrine to Native Americans..... 16. My friends who are native american like the logo 17. What about that one guy who was NA and played on the hockey team? 18. A NA designed the logo 19. Im sick of those Politically Correct activists.... 20. We have over 400 Native students on this campus and 25 native american programs....... 21. We have started a committee to "study" the issue 22. Im named after a family member and Im not offended 23. I would be proud if a school's nickname was named after me. 24. Can we make a compromise? 25. If this affects you and your children like you say then you need to get a better self-esteem and teach your children not to be affected so personally by it...

Well you are ignorant. Those people that went to the Superdome for refuge wereNOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE. And as for the people who were trying to fend for themselves... they were called looters by the press. What did you expect them to do for food? plant a garden? Media and most of the rest of the US was so concerned about the economic impact of Katrina, they forgot about the human beings. Those stores will recover. I dont think Walmart expected to save the fruits and veggies after evacuating, but when people went in to take them for survival they were only thought of as criminals and thieves. You dont know that some of those people in N.O. werent working their butts off for minimum wage to feed their families. But if someone says, Hey if you arent going to get out of the city in time, go the superdome, we'll take care of you. Why not take the offer? Gov't failed what they said they would do. I was pretty surprised to find out the total lack of organization at the Superdome considering before the hurricane hit they took so much time to search everyone for weapons. People also stayed to protect their homes and businesses. Tell you what, if they were only living off of the government dole, I dont think they would be real concerned about a home they didnt own. anyway, dont get me started. You must be a total atheist to not give a rip about the poor. Most of us go to school on government assistance (called Stafford loans and Pell grants for those too far removed from college), except for a small few whose parents planned ahead. I dont know alot of people working their butts off to take care of their family that can afford to put away 30,000 or 100,000 for their kids' education. I dont think it is a total drain on society to provide financial assistance to people who will become future taxpayers. Gov't assistance in this state also includes paying for child care so parents can go to work. Is that a problem for you? Maybe the little babies and children should stay home and take care of themselves? Or maybe one parent should stay home and raise their children and maybe stoop so low as to get financial help from welfare because their job a Mickey D's doesnt pay enough to justify leaving their kids with a stranger all day? get a life and learn about what you are talking about before you open your trap again.

The only thing worse than being called a racist is having to admit that it's true. Something Kupchella, UND and community is not ready to do unfortunately. The landowners in the South fought like hell to preserve slavery, but in the end they were still wrong.