[Alumni Association begins campaign against nickname]

I have to disagree. I believe that this was the turning point in the whole ordeal. The lawsuit settlement of October 2007 had a drop dead date of 11-30-10 for compliance. From October 2007 through all of 2008, very little was done. In fact, at the January 2009 SBOHE meeting, they talked about how the "formation of the [nickname] committee has begun". They hadn't even formalized their committee yet! However outside the purview of the State Board, people were working to get a vote held at Spirit Lake. That vote, an overwhelming one, was held on April 20, 2009. One would think this would have been met with great joy by both UND and the SBOHE. A full year and half before the deadline, one tribe has voted in favor- by a landslide. The board doesn't even have a committee yet, and one half of the hurdle has been accomplished. This was fantastic.

So what does the Board do? A mere 24 days after the vote, the SBOHE, on May 14, 2009, makes a motion to 1. Move the deadline from 11-30-10 up to 10-1-09; and 2. Require a 30 year binding agreement. Talk about taking a crap on the very people you claim to be honoring. Unbelievable. You don't think the people at Standing Rock noticed that one? You don't think the people of Spirit Lake have dug in their heals over this offense? Everything that has happened since, including Carlson's legislation, stems from Board's 5-14-09 action and their subsequent screw-ups on this issue.

Had the SBOHE left well enough alone, the original 11-30-10 deadline with have come with either approval from both sides, or the grudging retirement of the name for failure to gain Standing Rock approval. Everyone was resigned to this reality. There would have been no legislative interference because the board would not have given the legislature any ammo. The SBOHE, and the UND officials who lobbied them, screwed this up royally for no reason - except a shot at the Summit League, which is specifically mentioned in those very 5-14-09 minutes.

So UND is in a very tough spot, no doubt. This is a watershed moment. I did not sign the petition, nor will I vote for the measure, because I understand the stakes are high. However, I don't feel one bit sorry for the UND administration, or the members of the SBOHE, or the Alumni Association. Because, this was all avoidable. All one had to do was have a simple understanding of the heartfelt emotions surrounding the name and logo, and then just let it play out without interference.

I don't think that there was ever a chance at Standing Rock. After the settlement people thought there was a chance at Spirit Lake, but realized that Standing Rock was going to be almost impossible. There had been plenty of communication, or efforts behind the scenes at communication with Standing Rock after the settlement. Espegard, Shaft and others have talked about telephone calls and e-mails going unreturned. Attempts to set up meetings that were ignored. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Standing Rock didn't want to communicate with them then, and still isn't communicating with them. And the effort at a time period for the approval was necessary. The settlement said that with 1 vote either tribe could remove their approval. Then the whole damn mess would have started again. That could have happened after the next tribal election. They weren't locked in at 30 years, they just wanted some period of certainty. Moving on it that early may have upset some people at Spirit Lake, but it didn't affect Standing Rock.

And I believe that Al Carlson would have made his move anyway. Carlson is trying to take down the SBoHE. He has enough of the legislature following him that the issue would have passed. And there would have been plenty of people that would have made noise about keeping the name.

The Summit League was definitely a factor. As we see in the discussion now, a conference is huge for the non-hockey sports. At that point, the Big Sky had resisted all efforts at adding teams in the Central Time Zone. So the Summit seemed like the only possibility. If the chances of getting Standing Rock to move are so small, and getting into a league is very important, there is a lot of incentive to make that move. The SBoHE knew it wasn't going to be popular, but it was a sound business decision.

There were plenty of mistakes made by a lot of people throughout this, and going back decades. But there is too much emotion involved right now and not enough rational thought. I get that people are mad or hurt. It just isn't good to make major decisions based on those emotions.

[Alumni Association begins campaign against nickname]

The hell does this mean??

It looks like they voted to have UND follow the nickname law and use uniforms allowable under the law. Then they voted to seek clarification of the constitutionality of the law. As a non-lawyer it looks like they want UND to follow the law for now, but that they are going to challenge the constitutionality.

[Alumni Association begins campaign against nickname]

“I’m glad they did that,” Shaft said. “But had a lot of that happened earlier, we might not be in the position we’re in today.”

I find this statement to be somewhat ironic. If the SBOHE had not done what they did earlier (spring of 2009), I doubt we are knee deep in this steaming pile of poo today.

I don't think it would have changed much. The people that want to keep the nickname-at-all-costs would still have been upset. Standing Rock wasn't going to do anything whether the SBoHE waited any longer or not. Carlson still would have introduced his legislation, because his cause is to get rid of the SBoHE and he doesn't really care about the nickname.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

Also, a benefit to the annual series that has only been lightly touched on is the scheduling stability. An annual series would leave no chance for a buyout. Both NDSU and UND found themselves in tough scheduling positions because of buyouts for next season. I imagine both Faison and Taylor would have preferred to have each other on the schedule than the games that got bought out.

Add to that the fact that both schools have had difficulty bringing opponents to North Dakota. NDSU has probably had to over pay for cupcakes and that doesn't make sense for UND. Having good quality games that will be pretty much guaranteed to make money are hard to turn down. It's almost like having another conference game.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

If you feel it makes so much sense for NDSU and is in NDSU's best interest, what is you opinion on why the game has yet to be scheduled? Spare me the GT is afraid rhetoric that is far too common on this forum.

At least a part of it goes back to the "UND quit playing us and wouldn't help us through the transition so we aren't going to do anything to help them" thought process. A little bit anger, a little bit revenge. Throw in a little bit of "We don't want people to think UND is on the same level as NDSU". And a part that likes the "preferred schedule" you outlined above. And add in some difficulty finding a common open date. I'm probably missing some elements, but that covers a lot of the reasons it hasn't happened yet.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

Seems to me you should apply for the AD position at NDSU with that sort of insight.

It's not rocket science. A lot of other schools do something similar. But if that is so far above what the NDSU athletic department can handle, maybe I should apply whenever Taylor leaves.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

Also, if NDSU were to do this it isn't exclusive to playing UND. They would be able to charge the same premium for bringing in Montana, Montana St. App St, Georgia Southern, Sam Houston.

We need to find a benefit that is exclusive to playing UND for the argument to be valid.

How many of those games would happen on a regular basis? UND-NDSU would be every other year or every 4 years. And then you have to base the ticket premium based on projected interest. UND has at least 3 ticket prices for different hockey games. Minnesota is one price, Denver and Wisconsin and maybe someone else is a second price, and then you have the base price for all other games. It's a business decision and it isn't that hard to figure out, especially for only 6 games. After all, why should someone expect to pay the same price for Wagner or Drake as they would for a premium team? I could see 1 or 2 games at a premium price(s) and the rest at basic prices.

[2012 early look]

If the nickname does end up staying, any money that has been raised for the IPF will go back into the athletic department budget just to keep it afloat.

The money was probably designated for that project. If the donor did specifically designate the money it can't be diverted to another purpose without their permission.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

I very much doubt that would happen. Where does that end? Sorry season ticket holders, SDSU and UNI are home this year instead of away so we are charging more for season tickets this year. UND wouldn't be the only "premium" game. This wouldn't sit well with season ticket holders and is not a likely scenario.

Season ticket holders may get a break and only pay $10 or $15 extra, but they wouldn't get them at the same price. The same thing happens all over the place. Your season ticket price varies depending on the number of home games that year and any premium games. Just because NDSU hasn't done it before doesn't mean that it can't or won't happen.

[POLL: Should UND-NDSU Resume the Football Series?]

Success in the 90's. Cool beans. In case you haven't noticed, the D-I NDSU is a lot different than the scholarship-ravaged teams of the 90's.

Scholarship ravaged? You mean having the same number of scholarships as everyone else in Division II? You're not scholarship ravaged unless you are playing with less than everyone else.

For ten years, the UND game was the biggest game that the dome would have. Attendence has skyrocketed since going D-1. With the better players and added hype around the team, the difference between having UND come here, and having St. Francis here, is around 1,000 tickets. No benefit.

How much does St. Francis get? $75-100,000 maybe? And add $20 per ticket for all non-student would pull in another $300,000 with no additional cost. I would think that an additional $400,000 might be nice for the athletic department.

[Time for Mr. Kelley To Lead and Not Follow]

So you have heard them say it (insider), but it's difficult for them to say it publically?? Kind like the tree falling in the forest??? Who hears it??

Kudos to "Timmaaaaaaaay"! Least he has stones.

To the bolded comment...how has that worked out to date???

I've heard Faison say it on the radio and when speaking to small groups. Not an insider, but he didn't do it in a big public forum. I'm pretty sure that I've heard Kelley say it on the radio also, but not as sure as hearing Faison. And I know that Kelley really liked a UND tie I was wearing at a 2008 homecoming event. It has the geometric logo, the Brien logo and the interlocking ND. He wanted to know if I got it some place locally because he wanted one (I didn't). Plus I've seen both of them wear Fighting Sioux clothing at games.

As far as how it has worked out so far, probably about as well as if they had some big public statement. It was a lose-lose situation for both Kelley and Faison.

[Time for Mr. Kelley To Lead and Not Follow]

Not disagreeing with anything above, but there has been a lot of finger pointing as who is to blame...Hakstol, Hoeven, Berg, Conrad, Kelley and Fasion to name a few.

The problem, I as an alum and many other alums I know have, is the fact Kelley and Fasion, particularly Kelley being the president of UND, never at any time came out publicly to acknowledge that the nickname has/had great importance to the university, has meant so much to so many and the loss of the name, right or wrong, will leave a void for those families, and I mean generations of families, that attended UND. Instead, they send Johnson out with his "scrubbing" coments to appease the PC crowd.

I understand my affinity for the name isn't as important as doing what is best for UND and the athletic dept. and I'm in favor of moving on, but I feel Kelley in particular has never shown any empathy or concern for those, like myself and my kids, who have grown up as "Fighting Sioux". His general silence towards what losing this nickname means to so many is appalling. If you are going to "lead" an university, you have to first and foremost have a pulse on the "people" that make up that university and what their feelings are towards an issue affecting the university. Never once have I heard the president of UND address this fact. To me, he has missed the boat on that completely.

BTW I will vote "no" in June.

I have heard both Kelley and Faison talk about how important the nickname and logo have been to UND. I have heard both of them say that they like the nickname and logo. But it would be difficult for them to make a large public statement of support without a lot of people taking it wrong. Look at the reactions to Tim O'Keefe's letter. People are questioning his allegiance to the nickname and logo, and to the University. That's in spite of his and his family's history at the University. No matter what either Kelley or Faison said, people were going to get upset. In a case like that it is often better to say less. Especially when your bosses are in control of the situation.

[Time for Mr. Kelley To Lead and Not Follow]

I agree with you 100%.

However, people need to lay off Kelley and Faison. When there was still a chance to save the name the man in the best position to negotiate with the Tribes and the NCAA was conspicuously absent in person, but maybe not action: John Hoeven.

You are correct about Kelley and Faison. They were hired after the settlement was signed. They had nothing to do with that settlement. The State Board of Higher Education had control of the nickname situation. Kelley works for the SBoHE and Faison works for Kelley, so control of the nickname was above their heads. The SBoHE made all of the decisions on the issue and they set the policy. Kelley and Faison were employees doing their jobs.

[In a nut shell]

Maybe that "pressure" will come when Lucia, Eaves, et. al., tell him we they cannot schedule UND due to some conference and/or school policy drafted by academic eggheads ... give it a couple of years. As long as UND stays on the H&A list winters in NoDak may be "longer and colder" than usual in the future.

Maturi and the Assistant AD at Wisconsin gave that message to Faison last week. Minnesota and Wisconsin are done playing UND after they all leave the WCHA, unless the name changes.

[Time for Mr. Kelley To Lead and Not Follow]

Why are people so upset with Kelley and Faison? The power, the decisions, were never theirs.

The ND SBoHE took control of the issue in 2000 (and many of us cheered then).

When it came time to deal with the NCAA the SBoHE gave Kupchella power to sue the NCAA but then the SBoHE took over the negotiations when the SBoHE decided to settle out of court. Then-chancellor Goetz led the settlement negotiations for the Board with AG Stenejhem representing the State as a whole.

And whose marching orders were those two under? Well, Goetz had been then-Governor Hoeven's chief of staff and Hoeven and Stenejhem were both Rs.

Basically, the then-Governor of ND, John Hoeven, had Goetz and Stenejhem settle. And now Senator Hoeven, a man who could launch Congressional (Federal) hearings about the NCAA and its possible status as a monopoly (anti-trust) is mysteriously silent, again.

So leave Faison, Kelley, and even Kupchella out of this. It was taken out of their hands. Go see the man who could've made a difference.

Hoeven. John Hoeven. The Dartmouth Indi... ,er , I mean Dartmouth Big Green alumnus.

Any questions?

People or groups that have publicly said that it is time to change the nickname:

Governor Dalrymple, 2/3 of the North Dakota Legislature, the State Board of Higher Education, President Kelley, AD Faison, Tim O'Keefe from the UND Alumni Association along with a group of past presidents of the organization, several past governors of the state of North Dakota, the University Senate, the University Student Senate, the UND Student Government President, Jim Kleinsasser, and plenty more

Doesn't it make sense that these people are trying to do what is best for the University of North Dakota? Doesn't it make sense that these people, most of them actively involved with the school and/or the process, would know more about what is best for the school than tribal members at Spirit Lake, a lawyer in Minot, a blogger in Minot, a talk show host living in Fargo, and others that are part of the nickname-at-all-cost group?

[In a nut shell]

With over 80 years of excellence, success and tradition as being the "Fighting Sioux", I'll never get the big picture I guess.

Do you want the excellence, success and tradition to continue? The NCAA sanctions will greatly decrease the chances of continued success for the University of North Dakota. That includes all athletic programs. Giving up the Fighting Sioux nickname will give UND a fighting chance to be a successful Division I athletic program. That's the big picture.

[In a nut shell]

....and what is the main sport of the"nickname at all costs" crowd? Go back and look at the comments from that "crowd" once they were pushed about their thoughts on the "other sports".

I think his point is that it isn't quite that cut and dried. A majority of the nickname-at-all-costs crowd are probably hockey only fans. But not all of them. I know some people that are interested in all sports, but don't believe that anything bad will happen. And I know some hockey-only fans that do see the problems and believe it is time to change. Even some Bison fans that also like UND hockey realize that it would be best for the University as a whole to make the change. So it isn't as simple as hockey-only versus everyone else.

[In a nut shell]

That won't keep us from reviving the name at a future date

Get Kelly & Fasion to say that & I would agree

They can't do that for a lot of reasons. The main one being that no one knows if either one will be around by the time the Spirit Lake lawsuit is done. As has been said, that could take many years. No one can promise what others will do in the future.

EDIT: And actually, Faison has said that it could be brought back in the future depending on what else happens.

[In a nut shell]

typical

to quote one of my Hillbilly friends

"I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way"

Yes, that's typical of the nonsense you normally post.

[In a nut shell]

I respect your opinion, so I'm not picking on you. I do business all over the globe and as a GF native, I've sent many corporations to recruit at UND for grads. There is always room for compromise. UND's current management needs to find a way.

The NCAA told the North Dakota delegation last August that they wouldn't consider any of the various options that North Dakota presented. And the NCAA has refused to compromise their ban on post-season in either South Carolina or Mississippi. UND would have to have something to offer in a negotiation. The NCAA has the settlement agreement, UND has nothing that the NCAA wants. If you have any ideas, I'm sure that people would love to hear them.

[In a nut shell]

Just saying, that it is a likely solution that will work. With 2 sides dug in deep, the all or none (either way) is not going to work.

If UND uses the name at all, for any sport, the whole school will be on NCAA sanctions. They won't let UND pick and choose for just 1 sport. And as long as UND is on sanctions with the NCAA, the Big Sky Conference is going to have problems with UND. There isn't a middle ground any more. It is all or nothing. The NCAA and the settlement agreement will see to that. The only thing that the NCAA may consider compromising on is how quickly the Ralph removes logos, and that isn't a sure thing since they haven't shown up yet to tour the building (as far as I've heard).

[In a nut shell]

If you can absorb what you read it is all true - & logical to how there is still hope - your option means you gave up - are to afraid of things that may never happen - work for Kelly UND Payroll - Hate the Sioux Name or Sioux people - I could go on

Lets agree we disagree - But keep your broken record fears in a post of your own this one is Why We All Should See This Threw

IF Not It Would Have Been Over - Because of the Push by Kelly to make it so - A lot of people seem to agree & we will see come election time

My reading comprehension is pretty good. Your writing, not so much. And we don't hate the Sioux name or Sioux people just because we realize that it's time to change the name. And I can guarantee that not all of us work for UND, probably very few work for UND. No one can know for sure what will happen in the future, but I'm pretty sure that you're hope for the future would turn out very badly for UND.

If you want to have some place to push your nickname-at-all-cost agenda without being challenged, this isn't it. As a matter, people are going to keep pushing until the end to see that the right thing is done for UND and the future. Go visit your favorite political blog, they seem to be doing everything they can to push your agenda forward, including printing blatant lies about the situation.

[In a nut shell]

mine were facts your still speculating - throwing mud & scare tactics

"It's now or never - Like many worry about all the potential bad things - I worry about even if SL wins the Kelly Admin. will do everything possible to not let the name come back. If all this was not happening it would have been over & without the referral vote the Kelly admin. would have continued to phase out everything Fighting Sioux. I ask how hard would it be to bring the name back if he had succeeded ?

Thank goodness we are where we are & if the election / referral is passed, we will have until the SL lawsuit is complete to save the name - Plus save lots of expense making everything right again

& thats a fact.

The only "fact" in your first post was that UND would save money if they kept the name forever rather than changing it now and changing it again later. Of course they would lose any money they would earn from being in a Division I conference (that's how all of the NCAA basketball money is distributed). And they would lose a lot of money in ticket sales if they start losing a lot of games like I mentioned before. And since there isn't anything close to a guarantee that Spirit Lake is going to win the lawsuit, they would still have to pay to change everything in the future when the name got changed. You might want to look up the definition of fact.

[In a nut shell]

more mud

what was not correct ?

We are also sure to lose home field for football in the playoffs. That's another sport that is played at UND. It's at least as big a worry as losing home ice for hockey because at the present time the NCAA hockey tournament for men is held at neutral sites. It could potentially affect volleyball and probably some other sports. And since home teams win a much higher percentage of games, matchs, etc., it will probably affect the success of the teams.

Sanctions will definitely affect recruiting. They have hurt the South Carolina football team, and they aren't even directly affected by the sanctions, so sanctions will hurt recruiting for most of the sports at UND. If you were an athlete (probably a big if I would assume) and you had a choice between a school that was eligible to host playoff games and one that wasn't, which would you choose? I know that you would choose UND just to prove a point. Most people are going where they have the best chance of winning. Most athletes want to go where they aren't going to be penalized just for showing up.

If recruiting suffers, the play on the field, court, rink, etc., will suffer. That means less success and more losses. More losses means less people in the seats. Less people in the seats means less money for the program. And don't try to tell me that people will keep showing up at the Alerus Center or at the Ralph if the teams are losing. The football team had one bad season and a couple of weak schedules, what happened? Attendance went down. The same thing happened in the 90's for the hockey team when there was more than 1 bad year in a row. A lot of sports fans are front runners and will quit buying tickets if the teams aren't successful.

Those were just a few of things that weren't correct. And it didn't even consider what may or may not happen with the Big Sky. That could spiral downward very quickly. You want to keep this going until the Spirit Lake lawsuit is done. That is a minimum of 2 years, probably closer to 3-5 years, and could go on for at least a decade with appeals. The Athletic Department would be severely damaged in 3-5 years and could be just about done by the end of the decade. And you want that just so you can continue to cheer for the Fighting Sioux. That's not selfish at all, is it?

[Alumni Association begins campaign against nickname]

Wow!

What part of that statement wasn't factual? I don't remember exactly when the video tribute to the Sioux people that's narrated by Scott Hennen was first used (that is the statement of respect I'm talking about), but it was early to mid 2000's and definitely after the Ralph opened. So it was close to the time the NCAA issued their policy. It was created because UND realized that they needed to do more. And before 2005, when there were protests, people weren't worried whether the tribes actually approved of the name or not. No one said, "Maybe we should get a vote of the tribe members." People just wanted the protestors to go away. They thought that UND had a perfect right to use the name and no one could take it away from them. Some of them still feel that way. No one, including University officials, made an effort to develop a relationship with the tribes.

There are plenty of people that now are aware of the tribes, and who even have an interest in what the tribe members want. That is one of the good things that have come out of the issue. But there is still a group that don't care about the tribes and think that UND should have the right to do whatever they want. And there are some people that say they support the rights of the tribe members only because they think they can get what they want. Don't fool yourself into thinking that everyone trying to keep the Fighting Sioux name really cares about what the tribe members think.