The lawsuit and DI

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

The fact is, I've been following events related to the NCAA policy from Day 1.

And do you think that Illini fans are somehow latecomers to this party?

I don't need to prove anything to you...

That's good, because you haven't done that here.

because I know how and why things happened and the order in which they happened.

-How? Perhaps. I'm skeptical about this.

-Why? Highly doubtful.

-The order? While you may know the sequence in which events occurred, your assignments of causes simply cannot be proven. Correlation does not imply causation. (There's a Latin phrase too, but this board is too dirty-minded to spell it out in public.)

[PCM]

-The order? While you may know the sequence in which events occurred, your assignments of causes simply cannot be proven. Correlation does not imply causation. (There's a Latin phrase too, but this board is too dirty-minded to spell it out in public.)

Does this Washington Post article help explain my point?

"We feel like it gives the type of recognition that allows people to identify with the name 'Seminoles,' " Ken Chambers, the outgoing chief of the Great Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma, told the Palm Beach Post.

"Chambers doesn't know what he's talking about," David Narcomey, a member of the Oklahoma tribe's governing council, said Friday while attending the Native American Pow Wow at MCI Center in Washington. Oklahoma's Seminole Tribe joined the Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma in condemning Indian mascots and is a member organization of the National Congress of American Indians, which repudiates native mascots, he said.

The disagreement among the Oklahoma Seminoles came to light last week after the NCAA announced that it will ban Indian images from championship games, a decision that will affect 18 schools, including two colleges with high-profile sports teams -- Florida State and the University of Illinois, where the mascot is the feathered Chief Illiniwek.

The NCAA said that opposition to Florida State's mascot by Oklahoma's Seminoles was a factor in its decision to include the school in the ban. But after the chief contradicted Narcomey, the collegiate association is reconsidering its challenge. Meanwhile, Florida State has planned a formal appeal.

This is exaclty as I said it was. The NCAA put Florida State on its "hostile and abusive" list because it believed that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe opposed the use of the Seminoles nickname. The NCAA did this knowing full well that that FSU had the support of the Florida Seminole tribe. Only after it came to light that the Oklahoma Seminole tribe also supported FSU did the NCAA reverse itself.

So while I cannot prove that the support from the Oklahoma tribe caused the NCAA to change its mind on FSU's use of the Seminole nickname, the available evidence certainly suggests that it was a factor in granting the exemption.

[Diggler]

It's like an old married couple in here. So cute!

[Sioux-cia]

It's like an old married couple in here. So cute!

The Punch and Judy Show

[PCM]

To put this silliness to rest, let's get back to Chief Illiniwek Supporter's original point:

Strictly as an aside, I think the Seminoles got off because of both the in-state factor as well as the greater population of the Florida group over the Oklahoma group.

To which I replied:

Not really. All that was required for other schools to get exempted from the policy was approval from a namesake tribe in the same state. UND has that now. There were no conditions placed on where the tribe was located in relation to the school, the size of the tribe or how other tribes in other states viewed the issue. The NCAA has simply created a different standard for UND, and that's part of the reason why the state of North Dakota is suing the NCAA.

First, according to Wikipedia, there are almost twice as many Seminoles in Oklahoma as there are in Florida. So that part of your argument goes out the window. I

Edited June 21, 2007 by PCM

[Goon]

That goes back to the point I attempted to make to you before you decided to turn this thread into a urination competition

Is this funny to anyone else? It sure made me laugh

[Diggler]

I didn't even read PCM's post. It was way too long. If he'd have provided Cliff Notes, I might have.

[Sioux-cia]

Is this funny to anyone else? It sure made me laugh

Yep. And then I thought, 'What if Chief Illiniwek Supporter is a woman?', and laughed even harder!!

[Sioux-cia]

I didn't even read PCM's post. It was way too long. If he'd have provided Cliff Notes, I might have.

Just because you finally graduated doesn't mean it's ok to quit reading!

[Diggler]

Just because you finally graduated doesn't mean it's ok to quit reading!

I graduated four years ago. And yes it does. Reading is for suckers. And 3rd graders.

[PCM]

I didn't even read PCM's post. It was way too long. If he'd have provided Cliff Notes, I might have.

If you read Goon's last post, that tells you all you need to know.

By the way, this started because I gave short, pithy answers. See where it got me?

[Goon]

Yep. And then I thought, 'What if Chief Illiniwek Supporter is a woman?', and laughed even harder!!

Now that is funny too...

[Diggler]

If you read Goon's last post, that tells you all you need to know.

By the way, this started because I gave short, pithy answers. See where it got me?

Don't blame your desire to be Tolstoy on others.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

the available evidence certainly suggests that it was a factor in granting the exemption.

A factor, rather than THE factor. That says it all.

It's like an old married couple in here. So cute!

"Old" is up to you to define. But "married"? Uh, that's a no-go from day one.

The Punch and Judy Show

Personally, I prefer the metaphor of pro wrestlers on the undercard. Bash folding chairs over each others heads for two hours; then retire to the same dressing room, go out to dinner with the other wrestlers in a group, share a cab back to the same hotel, and get on the same bus to travel to the next night's show-where they bash each other with folding chairs once again.

All Sound and Fury

Signifying nothing.

That statement covers 99.999% of these boards. :-)

there are almost twice as many Seminoles in Oklahoma as there are in Florida.

Interesting point on the respective populations-and that's one reason why I try to stress proximity AND population. But frankly, in this case I had always heard that the Florida group was the larger group. So if that's wrong, then I'm wrong too. I've never been a fan of Wiki so I won't use it to cite stats. One point that I do know is that the Florida Seminoles have one of the "tightest" tests for tribal membership. http://www.seminoletribe.com/history/faqs.shtml They insist on 25% blood being traced to a 1950's list. I don't know whether or not the Oklahoma group insists on the same thing, or if they're even more stringent. For that matter, I don't know how the 1950's list was determined.

I have searched for some (reliable, official) stats about individual tribe Indian populations in the past. They're very hard to come by IMHO; and as noted, its difficult to ascertain that you're comparing apples to apples. But that's neither here nor there.

before you decided to turn this thread into a urination competition.

Wait a minute. I'd have to say that was not a unilateral decision at all. That was mutual at the very least.

Do I beleive that would solve all UND's problems with the Fighting Sioux nickname? No, I don't. It would only mean that the Spirit Lake Tribal Council would once again come under intense pressure to change its position. If the tribe voted to continue supporting UND, then the NCAA would be forced to grant the same exemption it grants to FSU, CMU and Utah for the same reasons. If the tribe rescinded its previous support or passed a resolution asking UND to drop the Fighting Sioux nickname, UND would go back on the NCAA's list and, as a practical matter, be forced to change its nickname.

Absolutely. Once you do get support (and find the right combination of words to satisfy the courts and the NCAA) then just like with the Chips and 'Noles, its up to you to keep that support. Nobody has ever said how long the "votes" last, or whether its a popular vote among the population or a resolution by a legislative body, or some other test.

I have to believe that the "intense pressure" is there for the Chips and the 'Noles also. So for better or worse, there's no guarantee that a revote would happen often, nor that it would be a change.

But here's one other point: nobody has ever brought up the idea that the Miami Tribe of Ohio should "revote" on the idea that they rescinded support for Miami University. Once you lose support of the patron, its gone forever. That's also unfair IMHO.

[Sioux-cia]

OK, Dirty, another opportunity to read!!

I couldn't find any information regarding the number of enrolled Florida Seminole Indians. But if you just go by the number of Seminoles living on a reservation, the Oklahoma numbers are indeed higher than the Florida numbers.

http://www.fivecivilizedtribes.org/semlhis...;%20Population:

Geographical Location & Population:

The Seminole Nation boundaries include areas scattered throughout Seminole County, one of the most economically depressed counties in Oklahoma. The tribal headquarters are located at Wewoka (meaning Barking Waters), which is the county seat of Seminole County.

The Seminole Nation currently has around 12,000 enrolled tribal members, which about 60 percent live within or near the Seminole nation boundaries. Except for about 700 not living in Oklahoma, the remainder live in other parts of the state.

http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/dcflash/nov05/indiancw.shtml

By 2000, Florida ranked 11th nationally in American Indian and Alaskan Native population and is one of only eleven states with an American Indian population exceeding 100,000. The Seminole tribe is perhaps the best-known tribe in Florida, but thousands of representatives of more than 500 federally recognized sovereign Indian nations live in Florida.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTa...mp;-format=ST-8

According to this there were 2936 Seminole Indians total who lived on one of the six Seminole reservations in Florida.

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/flor...noleindians.htm

In 1930 there were 1,789 in Oklahoma, 227 in Florida, and 32 scattered in other States.

I don't think it matters which tribe is 'more Indian' than the other, but since you brought it up, heres the Florida Seminole membership rules.

http://www.tribalresourcecenter.org/ccfold...standbylaws.htm

ARTICLE II--MEMBERSHIP

The membership of the Seminole Tribe of Florida shall consist of the following:

SECTION 1. Any person of Seminole Indian blood whose name appears on the Census Roll of the Seminole Agency of January 1, 1957, shall be eligible for enrollment, regardless of blood quantum or place of residence, upon written application to the Tribal Council, provided, that within five years after the approval of this Constitution and Bylaws the Census Roll may be corrected by the Seminole Tribal Council.

SEC. 2. Any child, of Seminole Indian blood, born to a parent or parents either or both whose names appear on the Census Roll of the Seminole Agency of January 1, 1957, shall be eligible for enrollment, regardless of blood quantum or place of residence, upon written application to the Tribal Council.

SEC. 3. Any descendant of Seminole Indian blood of a person whose name appears on the Census Roll of the Seminole Agency of January 1, 1957, shall be eligible for enrollment, regardless of blood quantum or place of residence, upon written application to the Tribal Council.

SEC. 4. In the event the applicant is a minor, the application may be prepared and presented by the parent or parents of the minor, or by any adult relative having knowledge of the minor's eligibility.

SEC. 5. The Tribal Council shall have the power to pass ordinances, which are consistent with and pursuant to this Constitution, governing future membership, loss of membership and the adoption of members into the Seminole Tribe of Florida, which ordinances shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, or his authorized representative.