Anti D-I petition circulating at SDSU

[bisonguy]

It was even a natural hat trick.

[jimdahl]

I see the Herald is at it again.  Touting the non integrated D1 Hockey sport as the least scandal ridden of all big time college athletics, putting down all other D1 sports as too expensive and scandal ridden and conveniently forgetting that your DII basketball program is now dirty and facing sanction.

Sigh. I can't believe these people don't realize how silly that argument sounds.

The institution, its coaches, its boosters, and its athletes are completely in control of what rules they do or don't follow. Classification has nothing to do with it except that the more people care about your program, the bigger news a scandal is.

If the Allen situation had occurred at Duke, we all would have heard about it through national media outlets (see Minnesota). Avoiding the prestige of Duke athletics because we don't want our dirty laundry aired that publicly is ridiculous.

[JBB]

It is truly the worst of all the arguments. It highlights everything bad about DII and DI hockey. But none of the others make any more sense. They are basically contrived and presented out of context. I dont understand why they even bother? You guys arent going DI, the Dakotas are, so why continue the barage started a year before the decision was made? Are they trying to keep the rank and file in line?

I'm killing the penalty now!

[jimdahl]

OK, while I did agree with you on the "scandal" argument, I gotta disagree with your others:

But none of the others make any more sense.

As Husby is fond of mentioning when its not relevant, the profitability of a program is critical to its survival. Conference affiliation affects travel costs and fan interest (especially in fair-weather Fargo) which in-turn affect the ability of a program to sustain itself. That's why we talk about those issues. I know you're unwilling to admit there's any risk because NDSU has already jumped head first, but I would prefer UND enter any such endeavor with its eyes open (as SDSU has done).

You guys arent going DI, the Dakotas are,

Assuming by "Dakotas" you mean the land grant ag schools (UND is also a Dakota school), many of us disagree with this presumption. If I thought UND really weren't considering D-IAA, this forum wouldn't exist. We're not all as obsessed with NDSU as you are UND. We talk about it because it's relevant to UND.

[JBB]

Well I guess I

[star2city]

The only reason we are having this discussion is the Herald article.  They seem to be the ones obsessed.  

Oh really? Have you considered looking in the mirror?

you are waiting for the trailblazers to complete their work before you make any decision.

Funny, I see UND and Grand Forks as the trailblazers and NDSU leadership just taking a well-worn path to Division I oblivion.

Before certain people get all bent out of shape, let me explain:

Over the next few years UND/Grand Forks are the confirmed hosts for the following national and international events:

2003 Div II Men's Women's Swimming Championships

2004 Men's Hockey Western Regional

2003 WCHA Women's Final Five

2005 Div II Men's Basketball Elite Eight

and the biggest: 2005 World Junior Hockey Championships.

Other events on the radar screen for hosting would probably include:

Div II Men's Football Final

Div I Women's Hockey Frozen Four

World Curling Championships

Div II Women's Elite Eight

Women's World Hockey Championships

more NCAA Men's hockey regionals

more Div II Men's Elite Eights

other Div II championships (swimming, soccer, volleyball, and maybe even wrestling)

and even, with Winnipeg or Minneapolis as co-hosts, the World Hockey Championships.

Is a path discernible here? Utilize world-class ice facilities for maintaining Div I prominence and obtaining international awareness. In Div II, UND will become even more pre-eminent (it still needs a Div II national men's basketball title) and Grand Forks' facilities will allow it to host even more Div II championships. Why ruin a good thing, when UND, Grand Forks, and North Dakota will receive so much benefit from both.

In the meantime, over the next ten years, NDSU will probably host conference tournaments in volleyball and women's basketball. If UND went Div I, they would likewise have limited hosting options except in hockey.

Although non-hockey people in the USA have probably never heard of the World Juniors, check out Canadian or Northern European sports web sites. The following is a quote from a Canadian message board on Grand Forks hosting the World Juniors: Sporting News.CAnada

Don't be surprized if this becomes the most successful host city in the history of the tournament! Only two hours from winnipeg. We know what it's like to put on a successful tourney, and we also know that we'll all come down to invade the pittiful crowds usually put out by the u.s.a. Grand Forks is an awesome hockey town, but it's too bad we'll have to leave there with the GOLD.................

With the UND athletic department serving in a host capacity for all the above events, why should it concern itself with the haphazard travels of the Jones' eighty miles or eight hundred miles down the road? Its own trailblazing will be so much more rewarding, creative, and beneficial to its community.

[star2city]

SDSU has followed the same course as NDSU except for one thing:  They apparently will not announce their provisional year until a conference has been found.  NDSU on the other hand has taken the position that after the provisional year they can either move up on stay put.  That strategy has no more or less risk than SDSU but it does send a clear message to any interested conference that we are certainly serious.  I think the position taken by NDSU is going to help both the Dakotas in their quest for conference affiliation.

Actually, I see SDSU as having placed themselves in a better bargaining position than NDSU originally did. The SD Board of Regents position forces any conference that may be a serious suitor to pony up a ring of matrimony five to ten years before they otherwise would, otherwise the virgin daughter stays home (in the NCC). NDSU's position is more like some floozie insisting she's gonna make it to the big time, and all the while she's showing what she's got to every Tom, Dick, and Harry. By NDSU hanging out with SDSU, NDSU may actually benefit by SDSU's 'hard to get' routine.

How could anyone actually think Chapman and the NDSU administration would reverse their decision at his stage? The egos are just too big.

[star2city]

Support among BSC members is running across the entire spectrum.

[star2city]

It

[SDSUFAN]

Star2city said:

"You are just spouting a repeat of Kolpack's shoddy journalism, that was picked up by the AP, which in turn has been repeated in papers like the Billings Gazette."

The most peculiar part about this statement is the timing of publication.

The Billings Gazette published its two columns on December 24 and Dec 30, and Kolpack's column was published on Dec 31. I wonder how that guy in Billings picked this up on AP. The AP must be part of this conspiracy and gave such papers as the Billings Gazette a tip-0ff after getting a tip from Kolpeck on December 23 or before.

I hope you enjoy all those D2 events. Why Hell I just might drive 600 miles to see the D2 swimming tournament. I dont know why but maybe its the attractiveness of Grand Forks.

[star2city]

The most peculiar part about this statement is the timing of publication.

The Billings Gazette published its two columns on December 24 and Dec 30, and Kolpack's column was published on Dec 31. I wonder how that guy in Billings picked this up on AP. The AP must be part of this conspiracy and gave such papers as the Billings Gazette a tip-0ff after getting a tip from Kolpeck on December 23 or before.

SDSUFAN:

As is normal, you have not gotten your facts straight. Kolpack began publishing this Big Sky stuff, with the land grant errors, on Dec. 21. Kolpack Dec 21 article - Big Sky Seems to me Dec 21st comes before Dec 23rd.

I hope you enjoy all those D2 events.  Why Hell I just might drive 600 miles to see the D2 swimming tournament. I dont know why but maybe its the attractiveness of Grand Forks.

Apparently you have not been enjoying D2 events, even though you have been going to them for 40 years! That's a pretty sad statement on the human condition.

When SDSU does not find a conference, the whole SDSU athletic department will be focused on 'The Road to Grand Forks' even if the thought sends a screech down your spine.

[tony]

Star2City, actually Chapman was saying that those three universities had similar "land grant portfolios." Kolpack just reported what he said.

I'm not sure that you've read the Billings articles, so here they are (not sure how long they'll be valid):

Article 1

Article 2

I'm not sure that this writer even mentions land grant status at all but I'm sure that you will derive a great deal of delight in proving me wrong - and if I can bring a moment of pleasure to your life, it won't be the worst thing I've done today.

All he does is briefly mention the possibility that NDSU and SDSU may join the Big Sky and how he'd like to see it happen. I sometimes think that you're conflicted, half the time you seem to be saying that NDSU isn't worthy of the Big Sky and the other half of the time you seem to be saying that the Big Sky isn't worthy of NDSU... wait, that can't be right because you'd probably pull off your own arms and kick them down a well before you'd type anything remotely positive about NDSU. I suppose that you're really saying that the NCC is better than the Big Sky and that NDSU, as always, is an object of scorn for all right-thinking people.

As this thread is supposed to be devoted to talking about UND's future in the Big Sky, has there been any movement at all on UND's part into investigating DI? I was just in Fargo for a week and asked around and it only confirmed what I thought already - DI is not an option that UND is pursuing whatsoever. The Herald keeps making it sound like UND could go DI at any minute unless people rise up and stop them. Plenty of people on this board also seem to think that UND is considering DI too. Based on what, I wonder?

[SDSUFAN]

Star2City

My point is that Jeff Kolpack's journalism is not shoddy and the Billings Gazette and Montana fans have been talking about SDSU and NDSU joining the big sky long before Jeff picked up a pen at the Fargo Forum.

Maybe they see coming east for two or three days cheaper than going to the west coast for the same period of time. Ever driven from GF to Portland? Takes a while does it not? When you arrive in Bozeman and Missoula, you are maybe a little over half way to your destination of Portland.

Among the good things happening in Grand Forks, you forgot the Canadian college students who come to Grand Forks for spring break in March. Now thats one attraction that has gone on for some time.

When SDSU was in the Men BB Regional in 1990, the fan bus from SDSU had to stay in Fargo since all the motels in Grand Forks where taken by the Canuk College kids. It was spring break time. Hurrah for them.

Some D2 events I have enjoyed, even one game at the Hilarious a year ago, but the outcome of the game was not to my liking. I am glad the Hilarious janitors and maintenence people are not paid out of my pocket.

I do think I would like D1AA and D1 events better than D2 Though

[bisonguy]

[star2city]

I sometimes think that you're conflicted, half the time you seem to be saying that NDSU isn't worthy of the Big Sky and the other half of the time you seem to be saying that the Big Sky isn't worthy of NDSU...

Tony:

I think you are finally close to getting it!!! This is precisely my point about NDSU President Chapman's left-hand / right hand reasoning.

Throughout this whole Div I issue, I have taken issue with the Fargo media and how they have given Chapman a free-ride. There is never any serious questioning of Chapman

[star2city]

you'd probably pull off your own arms and kick them down a well before you'd type anything remotely positive about NDSU.

I'm up to the challenge (with my arms in a well, the following was typed with my toes):

Four highly respectable things about NDSU:

Bucky Maughan's coaching

Don Morton's coaching (however painful it was)

NDSU's polymer science department

NDSU's agronomy department

It is your turn, Tony, bisonguy, and JBB. Can you ever type anything positive about UND without being 'UND'erhanded about it?

[star2city]

As this thread is supposed to be devoted to talking about UND's future in the Big Sky, has there been any movement at all on UND's part into investigating DI? I was just in Fargo for a week and asked around and it only confirmed what I thought already - DI is not an option that UND is pursuing whatsoever.

What is the source of your underlying insecurities about the Div I move? Isn't your goal to leave UND in the dust? Don't you trust what Chapman is telling you? Or what the Forum is writing? How could you not believe Gene Taylor is the man for the AD spot? Babich certainly will deliver the Herd back to their former glory, won't he? After all, Tulsa really was serious about him.

[star2city]

Ever driven from GF to Portland? Takes a while does it not? When you arrive in Bozeman and Missoula, you are maybe a little over half way to your destination of Portland.

So what's your point, SDSUFAN? Would you actually consider bussing your Jackrabbits to all Big Sky locales?

I am glad the Hilarious janitors and maintenence people are not paid out of my pocket.

Hey, I would imagine you making a big mess.

[star2city]

scan

[bisonguy]

Star2City,

Entzion was also an assistant AD at UND, what's your take? Entzion denied touching the officer. With no witnesses besides the two individuals, it's a possibility that the officer just didn't like NDSU. The course of action was appropriate. This was a scandal for NDSU, and I've moved on. You should too. I thought this forum was concerned about UND and DI, not NDSU history.

Let's get back to the topic at hand, and quit side-stepping.

Definition 1-A publicized incident that brings about disgrace or offends the moral sensibilities of society: a drug scandal that forced the mayor's resignation.

Looks like the first scenario is met. Notice the 'or' and lack of the term 'and'; thus, requiring only one scenario to be met.

Definition 2-A person, thing, or circumstance that causes or ought to cause disgrace or outrage: a politician whose dishonesty is a scandal; considered the housing shortage a scandal.

Damage to reputation or character caused by public disclosure of immoral or grossly improper behavior; disgrace.

Looks like outrage is not necessarily a criteria. I guess this definition fits, as well. Actually, if one looks outside the confines of UND, some schools may have been outraged by a loss to a school with an "ineligible" player. I seem to remember a lot of UND fans displaying "outrage" for a certain UNC QB.

Definition 3-Damage to reputation or character caused by public disclosure of immoral or grossly improper behavior; disgrace.

Talk that is damaging to one's character; malicious gossip

Immoral, yes. Grossly improper, in the sense of grossly as total or complete, yes. If it's not grossly improper, I guess all the NCAA rules and regulations should just be thrown out the window.

typing positives about UND:

1) The 2001 UND FB team was a group of good football players that excelled at playing as a team. Definitely deserved the NC that they received.

2) Englestad Arena- Do I need to elaborate?

3) Dale Lennon's coaching

4) the tradition of the hockey program

Are you happy now?

[SDSUFAN]

Star2City:

No I mentioned distance because it is an issue in joining the Big Sky. The current members have to deal with this issue in planning their budgets etc.

At least for the those on the eastern part of the current conference, there appears to be some desire to travel the opposite direction than what they have been going. I have nothing to do with the Jackrabbit travel plans nor do I own Jackrabbit Bus Lines in Sioux Falls

You seem to have an inside scoop on how the Big Sky presidents will consider this issue. The article does not say why the two presidents can not attend. It does not say they will not attend. So how can you tell whats going in their minds and how they will vote? Could it be because this consideration does not include UND and D1 hockey, that you feel threaten by the possibility that SDSU and NDSU might be accepted into the Big Sky?

As far me making a mess at the Hilarious, I dont think I am the only one. Sure I suppose I left an empty container of some sort, but thats all. Every event or no event requires the upkeep of the Hilarious and requires janitors and maintenence. I guess I was surprised with all the floor area in that building and from I-29, you would not comprehend that. It is a nice facility, but it does not keep itself tiddy and clean, thats all I was saying

[tony]

What is the source of your underlying insecurities about the Div I move?

[SDSUFAN]

Tony:

This just my speculation, but if the Big Sky accepts SDSU and NDSU, then I think the desire to stay D2 at UND will start to sour.

Its kind of early to predict what will happen at UND and USD, but the issue of the NCC moving in mass is not likely to happen. I dont think the dollars and commitment right now from the remaining NCC members exists. There are expensive hockey programs that NDSU and SDSU dont have and I just dont think anything is likely to change since the May NCC meeting last year.

I am grateful that SDSU has only a club sport for hockey. We just dont have 125 million to build a REA. When you can average 5000 for basketball at the D2 level, why risk that with a competing hockey program.

I was hoping some of the UND posters would have some inside dope on how the the REA is doing financially. Jim Dahl insists profits are not relevent, but I think they are very much so. If the REA cash flows in a positive manner, then there is funds to be funneled into other athletic programs, provided the foundation board decides they are not needed for other purposes. Agreements with Ralph could come into play here too. I dont have a clue as what was put into writing between the foundation and Ralph. Were all the details worked out before his death? If not then the UND Foundation has to deal with his estate which means money for lawyers and no one else.

From what I have read, the last few months that Ralph was living, he wanted to move forward with the title tranfer to the UND Foundation. One makes you wonder if this move was to make his estate affairs more workable or was the REA turning a profit? Believe me the more estate assets one has the more complicated this process becomes and its a good idea to have this in order before you die.

I have checked the hockey attendence at the UND site and they seem to be doing okay. But without knowing the operational cost of REA, its hard to tell what is going on financially at UND and specially REA. The question mark here is the ugly word called profits.

Once the smoke clears on this issue, you may see UND in a better position to make a move to D1. I think the generous gift of Ralph Englestad presents a challenge at UND that is not present at SDSU and NDSU.

Whether the Englestad legacy is good or bad financially is not clear at this point and that seems to tie the hands of Roger Thomas and his staff from making any kind of interal studies, let alone external studies regarding a proposed D1 move.

[jimdahl]

Jim Dahl insists profits are not relevent, but I think they are very much so.

Let me introduce you to something called context. Yes, I said profits weren't relevant TO THE PRESTIGE OF AN ATHLETIC PROGRAM. I'm not going to repeat my arguments, but it's on record that you failed to address them, but instead take every opportunity to quote me out of context.

Regarding the rest of your drivel -- it's been hashed out here. Do you really think that Ralph gave UND a gift that was an ongoing cash-drain or liability? He's clearly set it up to be self-sustaining for a long time to come.

[tony]

SDSUFan, from what I've heard, the REA is doing very well. I like to take things at face value as well and not worry about the behind-the-scenes stuff. Hockey and DI - I've never seen the link, although both UND's administration and several people on the pro-DI side seem to see it. There are just too many other differences between UN-O, St. Cloud, Mankato, and UND to lump them all together.

I'm more interested in what UND people think about DI for UND without speculating on all that other stuff.