Different mascot controversy

[tony]

Just so happens that I'm moving to Amsterdam in a few weeks and guess what? They have a nickname controversy of their own there.

A Dutch Soccer Riddle: Jewish Regalia Without Jews

I see some parallels between UND's use of "Fighting Sioux" and Ajax supporters' use of "Jews" as a nickname for athletic teams. Of course, there are some major differences too.

Edit: I apologize, my link requires you to register. I've found some others:

Here

here

Here

[PCM]

I see some parallels between UND's use of "Fighting Sioux" and Ajax supporters' use of "Jews" as a nickname for athletic teams. Of course, there are some major differences too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see no parallels for this reason:

...the club became identified in the public mind with Jews in the 1950's, and by the 1970's, opposing fans began to call Ajax supporters Jews. The supporters adopted the identity in a spirit of defiance.

"Jews" isn't the official name of the team. It was a name given to the team by opposing fans as an insult. In other words, it's the exact opposite of what happened at UND with the Sioux name.

[BigGreyAnt41]

Forgive me for possibly being politically incorrect, but this others teams nickname has more parallels, in my mind, with the way african-americans now sometimes call each other "the n-word", after it was first used as a derogatory term.

I agree with PCM, it seems to be near exact opposite of the problems people have with our nickname.

Yes, nickname, not mascot, like the thread title.

[tony]

If you can't see similarities, you are not thinking hard enough. However, the differences are probably just as interesting.

Similarities:

1. UND fans call themselves Sioux but they are not Sioux. Ajax supporters call themselves Jews but they are not Jews.

2. Fans from opposing teams act boorishly - EXTREMELY boorishly in some cases.

3. Fans of the teams using the nicknames have appropriated the symbols of another culture without really understanding them. UND fans aren't becoming Sioux. Ajax fans aren't becoming Jews.

4. Fans of Ajax claim to be honoring Jews. Fans of UND claim to be honoring the Sioux. Now ask yourself this: do you really think Ajax fans are honoring Jews? If they aren't (and, for God's sake, who in their right mind thinks what they are doing is honoring Jews?), does this have any bearing on what UND is doing?

5. Any suggestion that the use of Jew or Sioux is inappropriate is met with vehement opposition (as an aside, if the Sioux have more important things to worry about than how UND, their fans, and opposing fans use and misuse their name and whatnot, then it's equally certain that UND has more important things to worry about than the nickname of their sports teams - sports teams are, after all, only incidental to UND's primary function.

Differences:

1. Ajax is a business and is not sponsored by the state. It's just their fans doing this on their own. UND is a state run operation.

2. Ajax is not selling "Jewish-branded" gear. UND is selling "Sioux-branded" gear.

3. Some of the stuff that the fans of opposing teams do is unbelievable! It would be like having fans of opposing teams start yapping about Wounded Knee or something. In the Netherlands there seems to be a genuinely scary undercurrent to things to a degree that would not be tolerated by any normal person.

4. In the Netherlands, the Jewish population seems afraid to say anything and prefers to keep a low profile to avoid stirring things up. At least in the US, the Sioux tribes haven't been afraid to speak their minds.

5. Government representatives in the Netherlands aren't telling Jews to be quiet about complaining. In North Dakota, quasi-governmental guys like Earl Strinden are doing just that. You know, things like, "We'll cut funding for Indian programs if you make us give up the nickname" or "Changing the nickname will set Indian-White relations back decades."

Oh well, doubtless I'll be called a jerk, a troll, an idiot and all that once more.

However, this does suggest a possible solution. UND could drop their nickname completely and let the fans adopt whatever nickname they prefer. Then it becomes a free speech issue.

[BigGame]

4. In the Netherlands, the Jewish population seems afraid to say anything and prefers to keep a low profile to avoid stirring things up. At least in the US, the Sioux tribes haven't been afraid to speak their minds.

How do you know this is the case, maybe they don't care. This point like many of your others you are making assumptions. You are correct for calling yourself a troll because the situations are completely different. Your similarities and differences are obviously and completely one sided (hmmm, wonder why someone would make a point to do that)

I agree that the situation has some a very loose likeness to the situation at UND, but you're messed up if you honestly believe what you put down is an accurate depiction of the situations.

The statements in your post are accusatory and need factual backup that you should provide, if you have the ability to do so.

[PCM]

If you can't see similarities, you are not thinking hard enough. However, the differences are probably just as interesting.

Similarities:

1. UND fans call themselves Sioux but they are not Sioux. Ajax supporters call themselves Jews but they are not Jews.

UND calls its teams the Sioux. It's the official name of the teams. The Sioux name wasn't given to UND's teams by the fans. Jews is not the official name of the Ajax team. It was a name unofficially adopted by the fans. Therefore, your first point isn't a similarity.

NDSU fans call themselves Bison, but they are not bison. Tampa Bay fans call themselves Buccaneers, but they are not buccaneers. Vikings fans call themselves Vikings, but they are not Vikings.

The only similarity is that you can make the same silly argument about any name of any sports team.

2. Fans from opposing teams act boorishly - EXTREMELY boorishly in some cases.

No argument here. And this is probably the only similarity you state with which I agree. In both cases, the answer advocated by you and some others is stop using a name so that racists and anti-Semites won't be overtly racist and anti-Semtic at sporting events -- as if it's perfectly fine for them to behave this way at any other time.

In other words, rather than backing those who are using a nickname in a positive, honorable fashion, you chose to punish them and reward the racists and and anti-Semites by forcing the team they hate to change its name.

You can force the fans of Ajax to stop calling their team the Jews, but the anti-Semitism will still be there. You can stop UND from using the Sioux name, but the racism will still be there. So what have you accomplished, other than caving into and encouraging racism and anti-Semitism?

3. Fans of the teams using the nicknames have appropriated the symbols of another culture without really understanding them. UND fans aren't becoming Sioux. Ajax fans aren't becoming Jews.

How much do you need to understand about a bison (also the symbol of another culture) to be a Bison? How much do you need to understand about Vikings to be a Viking? Do you have to be wild to support the Minnesota Wild?

4. Fans of Ajax claim to be honoring Jews.

No they don't. The fans adopted the name on their own in defiance of anti-Semites who identified Amsterdam as a Jewish community.

Fans of UND claim to be honoring the Sioux.

Claim? Do you actually believe that UND adopted the name to insult the Sioux?

Now ask yourself this: do you really think Ajax fans are honoring Jews? If they aren't (and, for God's sake, who in their right mind thinks what they are doing is honoring Jews?), does this have any bearing on what UND is doing?

Nowhere in any of the stories you posted links to does it say that Ajax fans are acting with the intent to honor the Jews. That is simply your interpretation and it is wrong.

5. Any suggestion that the use of Jew or Sioux is inappropriate is met with vehement opposition (as an aside, if the Sioux have more important things to worry about than how UND, their fans, and opposing fans use and misuse their name and whatnot, then it's equally certain that UND has more important things to worry about than the nickname of their sports teams - sports teams are, after all, only incidental to UND's primary function.

You're right. There are other more important things to worry about and things to work on that would actually make a difference if they were changed.