Bison06

21 years for NDSU 10 years for UND, who cares both are ancient history. The fact remains that NDSU is a few years ahead of UND in the transition to Division I. At this point comparing the two schools NDSU has had more success during the transition process, doesn't mean it can't change. Of course football games are played on the field and when that happens in a rivalry game anything can happen. But, I feel any objective observer of the two programs would have to say NDSU is on the right path looking forward while UND is in need of some serious changes to compete in the Big Sky let alone nationally. I've always respected UND's program and sincerely hope they can find the path back to being a successful program.

Who are the players that are felons on the current NDSU roster?

What about putting a knife to someone's throat? Drunken Shenanigans too? I am not saying NDSU hasn't had problem kids, just make sure your own house is clean before making comments like I responded to.

You really want to open up that can of worms?

It's not me making the decision to not play. I am just relaying my opinion on why it doesn't make sense for NDSU to play right now. Let me ask you this, why does UND want to play the game so badly? Could it be because of the exact opposite reason I am saying NDSU doesn't want to play the game. UND has way more to gain, evidenced by who is really pushing for this game.

What do you want me to take a poll? Or give you names of former UND players that are friends of mine? Watch the two teams, NDSU puts a better product on the field right now. In the absence of an actual game that is all we are left with. 3-8? Thanks for the reminder, if you guys want to play that game, I'll remind you that the USF loss isn't too far in the rear view mirror either.

Glad I can amuse you. Not scared, just realistic. The fact is I am confident that if NDSU played UND this year, NDSU would win. But, being a competitor I realize any time you step on the field with a quality opponent in could result in a loss. With that in mind, it doesn't make sense for NDSU to play UND any time in the near future, because a loss would eliminate NDSU being viewed as the superior program. This is the same reason Minnesota isn't happy about playing NDSU, are they scared? No. They just realize the negative press that comes with losing to a team that is viewed as inferior by the general public. Honest question for you homer, have you seen NDSU play in the last couple of years?

Maybe tanked is a harsh word, but not considering what most have come to expect from the UND program. When did NDSU have all this hype and not make the playoffs? When we went 3-8 two years ago? No hype from me, most NDSU fans knew that without a decent quarterback we would never get it done. There will always be hype surrounding the NDSU football team, not the same but similar to UND hockey. Being the premier program at a school tends to lend itself well to fans over-hyping the talent of a team. You're right it's easy to sit back and say this team would beat that team. I don't see any reason why NDSU would want to play UND right now. In the eyes of a lot of people in the area, if you aren't one of them fine, NDSU has the perception of being the superior program. This helps with recruiting, fund-raising, student interest etc. If we play again and let's say we lose, then we have lost the perception of being superior. If we win, people will still believe we are the superior program. I don't see any advantage strategically for NDSU to play this game.

Of course I remember the 3-8 season, I don't have a short memory at all. I am a very level headed fan. I have followed both programs very closely over the past decade and regardless of records any given year I am not alone in thinking NDSU has a better product right now. You may not be one of them, but I have spoken with many Sioux fans who agree with that. I think to say that NDSU doesn't want to play the game because they are scared to lose is over-simplifying the issue. The issue is NDSU has absolutely nothing to gain by playing the game. Do you agree that at this point in the history of the rivalry, UND has far more to gain by playing NDSU than vice versa?

Clever. Of course that is always a concern when you are playing a rivalry type of game, but I am honestly curious, what has UND done in the last couple of years to warrant this feeling that seems to be coming from the UND fanbase that UND would win that game. I have spoken with many level headed Sioux fans (former players) recently that say the program has tanked in the last 5 years and say the level of play at NDSU is far superior. I have always thought UND had a great program and will get back to the point where they are relevant on the national stage. I am not here to talk trash at all, I just find it interesting that you have had two of your worst seasons in the last 20 years the last two years and all of a sudden you think UND is the team to beat.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Central Michigan played a bowl game the year NDSU beat them. So, while the FBS teams NDSU has beaten haven't exactly been USC, they haven't been bottom dwellers either. I am of the opinion that it doesn't make sense for either school to schedule this game yearly. Ideally, for me anyway, this rivalry is renewed in a playoff game in the next 5 years. I think an objective person would agree NDSU has way more to lose than to gain at this point when compared with UND.

I don't think any reasonable person would argue that statement one bit. I wish I knew more about the circumstances surrounding his recruitment to NDSU, did NDSU say "Shamen is better, let's not recruit Weston" or did NDSU and UND go after him equally and he chose UND(I can't imagine anyone making that decision ) Anybody have any insight into that?

Do you guys have a quarterback who is a shoe in for the QB spot next year or is it pretty wide open?

I agree with that point, but what would you have NDSU call themselves in the football scenario? They certainly aren't DII, they are somewhere in between. I have no problem with admitting that NDSU is not DI like Wisconsin in football, but they are in every other sport. It creates a problem with the naming. So until that gets taken care of the FCS/FBS is a very important distinction to make for recruiting. It is important to have the word Football in the name so people know it is only a distinction made in football. The old way, technically Gonzaga was a DI-AAA school as were Marquette and Wichita State. It was just a bad naming system. The change they made is not perfect by any means, but it is important as UND will see in recruting battles with some of the "Big Dog" DI schools. Also, I think that NDSU or UND saying they are DI in football without adding FCS on the end is just as backward and misleading as calling them I-AA schools.

I don't know how to say this without sounding condescending, you have completely missed the point. I know it's just for football, but that is the point of putting football in the name.(Football Bowl Championship)I am not saying ESPN uses it, I am not saying that all coaches use it, I am not saying that I use it all of the time. All I am saying is there is a legit reason for the changes to the terminology and to say that it's only because I want to be a big dog is incorrect.

Being a teenager that did take the time to look into my college selection I agree with this statement, but the recruiting process is competetive, unethical coaches will lie to gain an advantage. We have seen these unethical practices in so many situations over the years that it should not come as a surprise that they were going on in this situation. Also, I know that a lot of you don't follow basketball at UND, but to continue to refer to your whole school as I-AA is harmful to all other sports besides football. There is a distinction for a reason as I stated in my previous post. So if you call your football team I-AA I won't get mad, but made sure that people understand it is for football only. If you don't we will be right back to the problems we had before the name change with recruting. This is why I use FCS and FBS, not because I feel inferior in some way to the "Big Dogs", but because I don't want people to unfairly judge the level of competition that NDSU and UND compete at. I am not trying to make it more than it is, but I also don't want it to be viewed as less than it is either. As far as convincing DaveK, I am well aware that once he digs his feet in on a subject there is no changing his mind. I just want to make sure you all know there is a legitamate reason for the name change and not just small schools feel inferior. That and I must be extraordinarily bored today.

I realize we have been through this numerous times, but here we go again. I will use an example to make my point. If the University of Southern Illinois and the University of Illinois were recruiting the same player to come to their school and play BASKETBALL, what was happening before they made the change from I and I-AA to FBS and FCS was the University of Illinois coaches would sit down in this player's home and lie to them. They would say why would you go to The University of Southern Illinois when they are a I-AA school. Which we all know is only correct when referring to the football team. The kid, most likely 16-18 years old and uninformed, believes these coaches and opts to go to the University of Illinois based only on the fact that they were told that the University of Southern Illinois was inferior in some way. To guard against this behavior, the NCAA enacted the new naming system. It's purpose was to add the word football into the new name so recruits would know that the names only applied to football. Football Championship Subdivision and Football Bowl subdivision. So you see, the purpose of this new naming system is not some sort of inferiority complex that the smaller division I schools have. They were being screwed out of recruits by the big schools lying to teenagers. You can see how this would affect a school like NDSU, UND, UNI, SIU when trying to recruit athletes in other sports. UND has a strong hockey program. What if the University of Minnesota began telling unsuspecting recruits that you guys were somehow inferior to them and was winning recruiting battles solely on that. You would be pissed. This is what happened, and this is why they changed the names. SIU is just as strong if not stronger in basketball than some of the teams that would win recruiting battles over them, because teenagers were being lied to. Some might say "well the kids should be smarter than that and do research on the school on their own". I agree with that, but big schools shouldn't have a HUGE advantage over smaller schools because teenagers are too lazy to do research on which college to go to. For those of you who understood this before my rant, I apologize. Dave just seems to make it about an inferiority complex that FCS schools have and it just plain isn't true.

My point that our records were similar was only in response to DaveK saying we have done significantly better since moving up. I account for the similar records by saying that we have had better coaches, better players, better fan supports etc. to go along with the upgrade in competition. As I have said many times I expect UND to do very well through the transition, my point was only to say that NDSU doing well doesn't indicate how UND will do at all. They may do better, they may do the same, they may do much worse who knows? You can't compare the two situations because so many variables have taken effect since NDSU made the move. My qualm wasn't with the Sioux majority. I realize most Sioux fans are very level headed about things of this nature. Most, if not all, of the post was directed at DaveK.

Yes, I do think NDSU is ALOT better than they used to be. I am not sure what is being accomplished by comparing our scores against Southern Utah. I think time and time again comparative scoring has been shown to be a poor yardstick to measure two teams. Also, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that a team that was ranked #1 in FCS a good portion of the year and beat two I-A schools is better than all of DII. Do you?

The only one of those 3 teams that is considered to be at the top of FCS is NDSU, and IMO they haven't earned that yet. Also, I don't think to look at another team's success or lack of success proves anything about UND one way or the other. Look, I am not putting down UND or USD in any way. But, it's just not true when you continue to say it isn't a step up. I had a unique experience to play half of my career in D2 and half in FCS. I can say with no bias one way or the other, that the players in FCS are head and shoulder above D2 players. Bigger, stronger, faster at every position. The biggest difference is that with very few exceptions, every team you play at the FCS level has the talent to beat you. That is not the case in D2. This is just my experience with the two divisions. NDSU had some amazing recruiting classes come through in the last 6 years and that is a big reason for the success they have had, not the lack of competition.

My apologies if you are a statitician. I haven't taken the time, nor will I, to decipher whether this instance would be considered significant or not. I am merely saying, with my knowledge of football, that two four year intervals that are as similar as these two are should not be used as a marker as to the level of competition at the FCS level. NDSU consistently won 7-9 games a year every year leading up to the transition(except 2002). After the transition NDSU has won 7-10 games a year. I think a reasonable person would see these 4 year intervals as quite similar. The only reason I am met with any opposition whatsoever is because I am a fan of your rival school. If a loyal Sioux fan had presented this exact argument it would have been met with open arms. Sioux fans like to point to 2002 as an indicator as to the state of the program, as I said earlier it was a blip on the radar. If it makes you feel better to point at NDSU and say "They actually did better when they made the transition, FCS must be a joke" then by all means go right ahead. The facts just don't support that opinion. New coach, more funding, city re-investing as a fan base, these are the things that have gone right with NDSU's transition(SDSU also, for that matter), not the level of competition. I expect, as I always have, that UND and USD will come out of the transition very well, but it will have little/nothing to do with NDSU and SDSU's success. I think most of you would agree.

Don't I look foolish. Thanks for the correction.

I guess your UND math didn't teach you about statistically signifigant figures. I would call that a natural difference in records that could occur between any two 4 year periods. 6-7 wins or losses either way is pretty similar in my book, especially when you take into account one of those years accounts for 50% of the losses over the 4 year period.

I am curious how NDSU's records have improved, since the move up to DI. 2000...........12-2 2001...........7-3 2002...........2-8 2003...........8-3 2004...........8-3 2005...........7-4 2006...........10-1 2007...........10-1 The 4 seasons leading up to the official move to DI(2000-2003), NDSU was a combined 29-15. The 4 seasons since(2004-2007), NDSU was a combined 35-12. I would say those two are very comparable. It seems that you have taken the 2002 season as a good example of the state of the program. It was a blip on the radar. I expect UND and USD to well in the transition, but don't pull the "NDSU seemed to get better when they moved up, so the competition must be weaker argument". There are levels of competition in the NCAA for a reason. DIII<DII<FCS<FBS. There will always be a game here and there that speak to the contrary, but as a general rule moving up will bring more fierce competition.

All of that may be true, I really dont want to look it up or know if it's possible. But, this doesn't discount my original point that the current players have a rivalry with SDSU not UND. So when NDSU fans say our rival is SDSU I would have to agree with them.