Chief Illiniwek Supporter

My thoughts on the key reason this is being cancelled: (emphasis mine) I think they wanted your school to pony up some additional $$$. (BTW, I don't know every detail, but a $100k budget? WOW. Seems like a lot to me. I wonder how much of that is "speakers fees"? And this is a 30-member group?)

It's sad that someone feels the need to make this stuff up: you wonder if his NHL team knows about this type of thing. If I was running a company, I'd seriously question this guy's credibility on all matters. And it's even sadder that a newspaper in Winnipeg didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions. Having a major league team doesn't make you a major league city with a major league paper. The newspapers can whine all they want about how "bloggers have no credibility": when they surrender what little credibility they ever had by printing this out-and-out garbage, the papers lower themselves to the very standards they criticize.

I really don't think this is going to happen-nor do I think someone sitting in Las Vegas is the ideal source for whether or not this is a requirement. A) First, this has no relevance to the current topic of the Sioux nickname and the NCAA; but with that said... B) Is this REALLY the reason someone is fined by a Gambling commission? Please. Many people are collectors of WWII & Nazi memorabilia. Its absolutely legal to do this. IMHO, this can't be the entire story (if its accurate at all). Also, on the Canadian story about some hockey scout claiming that all sorts of "farmers" have nothing better to do but wait at rest areas, ride around on expressways (the wrong way) and shoot rifles at someone: I think there are a grand total of THREE rest areas on that highway within your state. One of them is between your two major cities, and they're about an hour apart by car IIRC. So yes, if he really had a LOT of coffee that night he might have needed that rest area. But IMHO that limits it to TWO rest areas. So the question remains, is there any reason for someone to be driving anywhere at that point? Are there airports, other hockey schools, etc. that he would need to drive to?

Yes, it was quite a coincidence that the ONLY time this has ever happened the supposed "victim" was an NHL scout and former player. -And: said NHL scout/player never bothered to call the police, file a complaint, etc. -Or maybe it has happened more than once, and other victims aren't calling the cops either: instead, they're also writing a book. (I assume that the shooters also said "hey, we're farmers. Not authors, not students, not professors but FARMERS. Get that straight for your future book.") BTW, thanks for drawing conclusions. I guess all the "white farmers" are "afraid that they're losing their arena." Enlightened people like the non-white, non-farmers are on your side. It's easy to figure that out since you've spent a good 6-7 hours in North Dakota. (Here's a guy who wouldn't sign a hockey player without extensive research, yet he feels free to disparge a race, occupation and area based on one "incident" that may have occured only in his own mind. Nice reporting by the Winnipeg paper. What's the Canadian equivilent of a Pulitzer Prize?) Apparently so. I guess at least two, and as many as four cars somehow managed to drive the wrong way for miles without causing any sort of traffic problem for anyone else. ...and... Thanks for not being "preachy". The words "that shouldn't exist in a country as wealthy as Canada" certainly doesn't sound preachy, does it? And can you tell us exactly WHERE this outrage is occuring? And can you assure us that its ONLY happening to "First Nation" people? And can you guarantee that its only happening BECAUSE they're "First Nation" people? I'd love for you to come to Chicago this winter. Lately we've had senior citizens found frozen to the floor of their homes in the city: I hope you can help out by showing that they're somehow victims of their ethnicity. ...and... Can anyone explain the difference? Quite true. But above and beyond the desolation, just why would an NHL scout be on that highway? Are there any other major sources of NHL talent within driving distance? Can't you catch just as many flights from your city as any other city within a normal drive?

I agree that there is a small group that is the loudest. But exactly what that much larger group does feel is unknown IMHO. Are they supportive of your nickname? Are they (silently) in agreement with people like Ron His Horse is Thunder? Or are they simply indifferent and couldn't care less one way or another? It's JMHO but if the latter is true, then whatever nickname the school changes to (if they are forced to change at all) should meet with that same apathy/indifference by those who are apathetic today. That may be true. But once the nickname goes, it goes FOREVER: and the leverage both Ron/Thunder and the tribes overall currently enjoy over your University disappears also. If a failure of leadership by Ron/Thunder and the rest of the Tribal elected officials causes a majority of the common people to fail to understand why the school suddenly has "Cavalry" (or any other nickname that those people dislike nearly as much as Sioux) then they'll need to take out their anger on their representatives on the next election day, according to the laws set up under their Tribal Constitution. Or, as noted above if they are indifferent then they'll vote according to different criteria. JMHO (or my $0.02 ) 100% agreement. Be careful what you wish for Ron-you just might get it. (And as far as I'm concerned, if some of the anger spilled over into those activist/busybody/perptual malcontent profs and other hangers-on I wouldn't feel too badly either.)

I personally am a big fan of solutions that make the original whiners even more annoyed: "hey, you got what you wanted, we don't have a "hostile and abusive" Indian name anymore. What do you mean, this is warlike? Tell that to Annapolis, West Point, Colorado Springs and places like the Citadel-they've had exactly the same type of nickname for years." In that spirit, I can tell you that one t-shirt being sold by the official merchandise sponsor of our athletics department has a very simple design, looking a bit like this only with the details filled in. Yes, IMHO it looks even more cartoonish than our late, lamented "retired" symbol. But OTOH, the University doesn't hold a copyright on this drawing. (And Blackhawk hats, t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc. are still very available from Chicago to Champaign. I've already written to them suggesting the Hawk's symbol on an Orange t-shirt would be a big seller.) I think the protestors at Illinois are getting a lesson in the immutable "Law of Unintended Consequences". Off this subject: Dennis Savard was fired as the coach of the Blackhawks last week: last year he coined the phrase "Commit to the Indian" which caused a tempest in a teapot among certain newspaper writers with little else to write about.

It's JMHO, but I think that plenty of high ranking people in your state don't want to have anything to do with this; because they know it will be a waste of time and all they'll do is listen to the nonsensical bleating of people who feel that linking smallpox blankets to a 2008 hockey team somehow gives them a momentary sense of power (and who won't understand when they fade right back into oblivion in 2011-2012). Reasonable political and business leaders in North Dakota won't want to lend their reputations to this charade; nor will they be willing spend even a second of the short time they have on this Earth listening to truly miserable, pathetic people. I think you'll get some retired Board members and some people from the Alumni Association and that will be about it.

I don't know anyone who has stated that there is no financial agreement between FSU and the Seminole tribe. Quite to the contrary, it has become almost a given that there IS a financial arrangement, based on numerous, numerous references. OTOH, finding proof of that arrangement on the internet wasn't as easy as I thought it was. Its kind of like going to the net and looking for citations proving that the Earth is round and not flat. Here's the one thing I found so far: while it has the appearance of a blog, it was posted by the newspaper's editorial staff: (emphasis mine) http://g2.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/...su_be_semi.html And FWIW, there are also any number of Native American-aligned websites that talk about the idea that the Seminoles get royalties from merchandise.

Don't forget that this long, drawn-out period of EVERYONE getting in their share of posturing, hyperbole, etc. is necessary for one reason and one reason only: these people are going to make a politically unpopular decision. They want to make it appear that they're actually doing what the people want done here, instead of caving to a small minority of perpetually dissatisfied whiners. They want you to know how much they absolutely agonized over doing this, they didn't want to do it, their hands were forced, etc. The truth is they want to get it done ASAP and get back to their sleepy little meetings which are little more than an excuse to get together for cocktails. Retched "controversies" are not what they signed up for: they were told that they'd get good publicity and a little extra blurb for their resumes for a short, perfunctory meeting or two. See the load about "uniting a divided campus" referenced above for further proof.

Interesting point:

I agree, this would not satisfy the protestors. To get back to the original question, this is a popular misconception IMHO: it was discussed repeatedly at Illinois also. I really don't think the objection is to the "fighting" nomenclature, despite the ceaseless rhetoric saying "you're misrepresenting us as warlike savages". This is just one aspect of the Hydra of objections raised by the various professional protestors. It's not the be all/end all of the protest IMHO. The real objection is to "Sioux" in this case: and that's because they can claim ownership of this word. At FSU, Chief Osceola comes out on horseback with a flaming spear and flings it into the ground (BTW, directly into their warrior symbol painted at midfield) and the Seminoles don't protest. If this doesn't symbolize "fighting" I don't know what would.

Sure, you could use "Dakotans". Until someone claims ownership of THAT word. But how about a picture (or pictures) of a random protestor as the logo? One day a priviliged, out-of-touch-with-reality professor. The next day it would rotate to being a picture of a person who found his Native American heritage late in life; someone who feels unfairly persecuted by others and and uses randomly targeted outrage against society as a boost to his own ego... the possibilites are there. Those people are definitely "fighting". Really, it could be anyone but your Board of Trustees.

"Absolutely! Everyone is entitled to hold MY opinion!"

Another lawyer. Maybe Shakespeare was right. Good point; there goes the Irish, Trojans, Spartans-you know the drill here. Also, you need to alert the Seminoles and Utes. Okay, let us know how your campaign to ban movies that you don't like is going. (As a layman, I kind of thought the Constitution said I could make any movie I wanted-and you could watch it or not. But, as a lawyer you simply must know more. Just like Poli Sci students.) BTW, how exactly do you tell what causes what? When you feel that you are discriminated against, is it caused by movies or the University of North Dakota? Do you ask the person who is sending out all these "negative waves" whether they've seen either the North Dakota hockey team or the a movie such as "Stagecoach"? And what if they've seen both? The University took on the image of brave, valiant people with grit and determination. (BTW, that's the same thing EVERY university, team, club, etc. does.) You have chosen to totally misconstrue their intent. "A Bear is a wussy animal, scared and frightened. How dare the Chicago NFL team take on this image?" How so? So what? Do you think that all tribal members (or for that matter, all people) need to think alike? Do you think that eliminating a nickname logo is going to change this? And do you think that this change will be for the better? And you have assigned a cause to your "feelings" that most people think is way off base. -A) again, not everyone will experience what you did. Quite frankly, not everyone else is quite as paranoid as you seem to be. -B) You've got a long way to go to get back to reality. Again, you're assigning your preferred "cause" to some effect, and your preferred characterization ("slowed to a drip") to not only the stats, but the cause of those stats. All of this is done without any proof being offered. Well, first I would ask if you visited campus before enrolling; and then I would ask why you stay in the community and/or state? Following that, I would ask how you think FSU or Utah students manage to "ignore" all of this? Finally, I would wonder why you think your feelings count for any more than anyone else's feelings? I really have to wonder how this person wins a case with arguments like these. IMHO, the people who say that America has way, way WAY too many lawyers are right.

Hmmm. To me, phrases like "...had consulted with UND..." and "...decided it wasn't their place to get involved in the debate..." sound like the PC translation for "they told us not to do it". But maybe I'm wrong, maybe this person said it all in good faith. I agree, an interesting proposal and at least someone is looking to compromise. I hope this isn't the first (and only) proposal to come out of the Native American community. Just a few thoughts: the bar seems to be set pretty high. Personally, I think the idea of a cut of ticket sales is out of line: the cut of merchandising seems to be the standard for direct payments. And can you really just declare a foreign language course as "accredited"? AFAIK, you need to go thru a long process for that to happen. JMHO, but I would say that courses like that need to be developed at the community colleges on/near the reservations and if popular enough, moved up to the larger campuses. And a lot of the other points seem like they need to go thru the entire university/state of North Dakota budgeting process rather than this (athletics only) process. I don't know what "all along" means in this context, but I will say that if this type of thing had been talked about long ago it probably could have been handled with far less rancor than what is currently being experienced. And I agree: IMHO some of the most entrenched, over-the-top people don't live on the reservations. And never have.

FWLIW, I love this solution, and I loved it long before you got into that agreement. IMHO (and I'm no lawyer) it is one way OUT of the agreement while staying within its terms. Get one tribe to say "sure, go ahead and call yourselves "xxxx Sioux" and we'll sign on for five or ten years". With that, you've changed your nickname; something can be worked out on a "new" logo and viola! Everybody who is capable of being happy is happy.

I guess anyone can call anything a "pow wow", but I do know that some Natives have organized dance exhibitions in which anyone (Native American or not) is invited to participate: and even learn the dances! These exhibitions are called Pow Wows. AFAIK, a popular and well-attended Pow Wow is held annually within the city limits of Chicago.

I don't disagree, but I sure wish we could change the pattern.

Sure, anything can be educational. Can't you learn something from so many of your own experiences in life? And that includes listening to some people as they talk about their heritage as they unfurl their flag. Unless, of course, you don't "learn" that the logo is offensive, the name is causing people to dread walking down the street, and other baseless propoganda. Then, you haven't learned anything. That's the point of education. Or should I say "re-education"? Some people simply will not grow up, will not accept that the universe does not center around them. Most of the time, people learn to ignore these selfish, childish individuals and they slowly withdraw from society. Simply giving into their irrational demands to keep them quiet does nothing but empower idiots. And that is what the NCAA has done. Requiring no proof, nothing but "my feelings are hurt" statements from SOME (which are given 100% weight while the feelings of the Utes, Seminoles and so many other individuals are marginalized) has resulted in people who feel totally entitled to claim ownership rights over history. FWLIW, I believe the soccer club in Dallas purposely went to the nickname "FC Dallas", discarding their old name of the Dallas Burn. FC simply stands for "Football Club". The name is used in Germany for one of their oldest teams. Obviously the soccer league needs all the marketing they can get-I doubt that they're trying to get less merchandising and marketing opportunities. Some people seem to believe that "no nickname" not only feasible, in some cases it's preferable to a nickname. JMHO.

I think you're right. If I constructed an arena with the Blackhawks logo built into it; an arena with say, a 40-year lifespan, and five years after the Hawks had- -allowed me to build it, -given me the exact drawings and colors of their logo in order to build it, -took team pictures in front of the logo built directly into my building, -played 20-30 hockey games a year in my building (making money all the way) then and only then then, if the Blackhawks told me for the first time that they were going to enforce their trademark rights against me and thereby attempt to compel me to undertake expensive alterations at my own expense-well, I'd tell the Hawks where they could go and what they could do with their demands. In short, I doubt you'd find a judge that would force a third party to undergo that expense because the (long term!) tennant had previously agreed to let them use the logo, not objected for a lengthy period of time and even promoted the building with the logo. I think the judge would say that the arena had done a lot of things-and spent a lot of money-in good faith; and the University can choose to either use the building or not, but after this long period of time without objections UND can't make someone else spend money because they suddenly think a perfectly legal drawing is objectionable.

(emphasis added) Can anyone tell me what these expenses may have been? Perhaps carfare from the area? Or did they actually fly in people and put them up for the night? JMHO, but a mileage rate for the price of gas is hardly anything to get excited about. You have opened Pandora's box. Any and every group of wacky protesters will be out demanding attention from you now that you have caved. One group will be satisfied: but "an idiot free future" is the exact opposite of what you're getting. You've powered up the large idiot electromagnet. I think you answered your own question: the "man bites dog" angle is the small group of oddballs, not the far greater number of normal people who realize this nickname is not harming anyone. Its the same reason the wacky letter gets printed: most people know that nobody needs to be "ashamed every time they walk down the street" unless they themselves want to. Every newspaper prints a letter like "the Martians are broadcasting to me via the fillings in my teeth" and very few "thankfully, the Boy Scouts cleaned the snow from my senior-citizen neighbor's driveway" letters.

I advocated this a while back. If one tribe votes yes and the other no, then change the name to the official, federally recognized full name of the cooperating tribe. How could the NCAA stop that? And I'd go full-out on scholarships, programs, etc for the tribe that saw the nickname as an honor. But I'd have the scholarships, etc. only for that single tribe. Anyone else can go thru the regular admission process, pay on their own, and of course, attend the very same "xxx Sioux Tribe" history orientation course that all other freshmen will be required to take.

As noted, if/when you do drop the nickname and these perpetually outraged professional victims notice that their lives do not change a single iota, then the problem will have to shift. And as also noted, the problem will change to the idea that you did not drop the nickname soon enough.

Well, this person claims to be a student at Dartmouth, and yet he/she wrote a letter saying that a decision is a "complete disregard" (sic)? Apparently grammar isn't a requirement for college admission anymore. Does it ever occur to this person that a decision to cancel this ceremony would be a "complete disregard for the many Native people at UND who DO support the nickname, and support the Engelstad Arena's further recognizing the many accomplishments of Native people and Lakota culture" Can this letter writer talk to the members of the tribe who will be there to give the flags to arena? What do they think about your three-page diatribe about how your feelings are hurt and "why can't people accommodate ME" It's astounding to think that at Florida State, people walk around seeing the Seminole symbol and somehow aren't quite as outraged. Same thing with Notre Dame. Or Michigan State. Or USC. (Or any of the international visitors to San Diego State.) Or maybe its just that those schools realize that they'll never be able to please everyone, and going thru life responding to each childish "affront" felt by someone who feels that they are a perpetual victim will accomplish nothing but further spoil these children? Please. They've told you that their feelings are hurt: that's enough. Can't you see that their feelings are far, far, FAR more important than your feelings?