tony

Doesn't UND already have seating for the entire population of Grand Forks and then some? I'm curious - why on earth do you need more? Grand Forks is a complete puzzle to me - there's almost no private industry, almost all personal income comes from the government, and yet, if my calculations are correct, there have been about 25,000 dollars worth of construction projects for each man, women, and child in Grand Forks within the last decade - with more coming down the road (hotel, waterparks, and now a new basketball arena!?!). Sure, about 70% of the funding for this stuff come from directly from other people's wallets, but there doesn't seem to be any rational explanation for spending more. Is there any point at which you'd take a look at Grand Forks and say, "Hey, I think that we've got enough infrastructure now?"

True, five teams wouldn't make a conference but it's a much better start than anything you can come up with now, isn't it? Besides the likelihood that at least one other NCC team would have stuck with the NCC is at least 100 times more more likely than DII not cutting scholarships or letting 20 or more NAIA teams join up within the next five years. Nobody would force an NCC school to add more scholarships for football, the cost of all other sports and travel remains approximately the same, so an NCC school would basically get DI for the price of DII if they want. Here's what I don't understand: if further scholarships cuts are reason to go up, then why didn't UND see the writing on the wall last year - or six years ago like every Bison fan I know? What you don't seem to grasp is that scholarship reductions are going to happen because it now makes sense for the majority of DII. You can't finesse your way out of it now because the cuts are coming as a result of letting all those weak conferences get into DII. It's simply too late to do anything about it now except take a good hard look and decide which division you belong in. Maybe I should get off of Thomas's back for not doing anything (but mumbling) because nothing he can do will stop it and further delay probably won't hurt any more - the damage has already been done. For my own part, I'd rather have NDSU and SDSU go it on their own so I'm only bringing this up to rub your nose in it.

Sorry, Brand's remarks are even more stupid than Kupchella's then. He was aiming his remarks to DII's leadership who purr like little kitties whenever they get the least bit of stroking. Those remarks you quoted from Thomas illustrate UND's lack of leadership very well. "If this and that and the other thing, we *might* get off our asses and do something but don't count on us providing any opposition to the further dliution of DII because we could use some more money for women's hockey." You talk of a diplomatic solution - what is the best that you're hoping for? Scholarships are going to get cut next year and more weak, tiny schools are going to join DII. NDSU, and anybody with an ounce of sense, could see this a mile off. UND is going to wait for the inevitable to happen and then react to it. That's not admirable - that's ridiculous. Guys like you are going to keep saying that NDSU is rushing headlong into something without waiting to see what is going to happen (rushing for the last 20 years). NDSU fought scholarship recuctions to 40. NDSU fought scholarship reductions to 36. NDSU fought the first try at 30 and won. There is no way that they'd be able to stop it this time - meanwhile, you are acting like UND should be shocked and saddened by another round of scholarship reductions. Shocked because you didn't see that it was a 100% certainty? Saddened because your leadership scuttled the last, best chance for a DI NCC?

Sicatoka, yeah Kupchella got ripped for saying that DII doens't have the problems that DI has because it's stupid thing to say. That Brand is trotting that same tired old horse out just raises more questions in my mind about DII's leadership. DII has lower graduation rates, lower academic standards, virtually no standards on professionalism except that you can't have an agent, and has just as many problems with athletes as DI - except nobody gives a rat's ass. Heck, there was one DII school that had multiple athletes murdered within the last year. Two other schools I know of had athletes running drugs. If Nebraska players got into two separate bar fights, that would maked national news. If it happens in Grand Forks, nobody is going to care. Face it, DII is the new NAIA - except the NAIA never claimed to be holier than everybody else. If you really think that Kupchella and Brand are right, stay in DII - don't let NDSU force you into giving up your virtue. Scholarships are going to get slashed in football. Furthermore, it is my prediction is that UND will provide no leadership in maintaining 36. For better or worse, NDSU is like the USA in its approach to problems. UND is like France.

I think that some North Dakota kids shied away from NDSU because of all the scare stories about how NDSU is going to flop in DI. When this doesn't happen, NDSU will start getting their share of ND kids. It's not like UND wasn't trying to get out of state kids (take Colorado, for instance), they just weren't getting them. NDSU was just a lot more successful in Illinois than UND was in Colorado so as far as I'm concerned, NDSU doesn't have anything to apologize for. The coaches can't make ND kids go to NDSU. If NDSU was passing up good ND players without even giving them a look, that'd be a different story. I don't think that's what happened though. Looks like UND fans agree with MojoBison's analysis of the recruiting class for the most part (Mojo's pick first, then Sioux2233's) QB: NDSU, NDSU RB: NDSU, NDSU WR: UND, UND OL: Tie, Tie TE: UND, UND DL: NDSU, Tie LB: NDSU, NDSU DB: NDSU, NDSU I'd disagree on TE (give it a tie). I also think that depth doesn't come from a single recruiting class, so that's nearly irrelevant. For example, UND only needs one RB to be better than the best that NDSU got or have both their DB recruits turn out better than NDSU's best two and they've done better. Same goes for NDSU v UND in the WR and DL department. It's not like UND is going to be putting four WRs from the same recruiting class onto the field at the same time so if NDSU's two are better than UND's best two, NDSU will have done better at this position - but the Austin-Presthus combo will be hard to beat. On the DL, all three of those guys NDSU signed are studs so I think that UND's guys are going to have to work pretty hard to equal them.

Classic. Sicatoka: Silence by media means (a) it wasn't newsworthy, (b) they didn't know about it, or c) it didn't happen. Which is it? I don't know. Me: It's not c) since I saw it. It didn't make the news because NDSU's coaching staff didn't whine about it during their press conference and UND's administration didn't see fit to make any comment on the issue. Sicatoka: Reporting, objective reporting of fact, lends to credibility of a story. Me: BWAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAA! And ignorance is bliss. Sicatoka: One hundred thousand dollars is a lot of public money to be "swept under the rug" (no reporting) by anyone. Me: It was reported. It was not attributed to UND fans that I know of. Sicatoka: Like I said earlier, if Roebuck et al were out of line with statements Saturday, NDSU should ask for an apology in return when they apologize to UND for Saturday's events. Me: AAARGH. NDSU should ask for an apology? Why? Man, NDSU shouldn't be worrying about the activities of UND's coaches, UND should. And what exactly should NDSU be apologizing to UND for again? How would you like that worded? Sicatoka: And at least you're consistent: Back to the ad hominem attack. Me: Don't use phrases that you don't understand. Anyway, do I frequently make ad hominem "attacks"? Mind you, I'm not calling you a clown to support or counter an argument, unless you think that blurting out "Vast Fighting Sioux Conspiracy" constitutes an argument of some sort. If that's the case, don't forget the big red nose and floppy shoes Sicatoka: Not to be too un-PC, but women, in general, are more sensitive to verbal abuse as well as unexpected, undesired, and unwarranted physical contact Me: Oh Sweet Irony! A UND fan makes a sexist remark on a world-wide forum! I demand that UND apologize to NDSU, to the women of the world, and to the educational system in general. Oh wait, I forget, you're being consistent - you never say anything unless it's phrased as a question because in Weasel World that means you can say anything you want with perfect impunity. Here's a thought, instead of just covering up the problem by moving the student section, why not educate the students on proper conduct and enforce it? If the NDSU student senate can't agree that students should stop making comments about Roebuck's mustache and whatnot, then move them.

AAAAAARGGGHHH! I was going to leave this alone but *for the love of God* Sicatoka, just how obtuse are you? I'm thinking your skull has a Mohs scale reading of 11.5. No, the Fargo media DID NOT report the pelting of Hager's assistant coaches or the drunk frat boy and his limp-wristed attempt to bean Rocky with a beer can. That's my point. You can't use the silence of the Fargo media to mean that something didn't happen. These things aren't alleged - they damn well happened. Oh, but no proof beyond video shot by a UND journalism student will work for you because it's an accusation directed at UND - I forgot. Holy cow! Your "Vast Fasting Sioux Conspiracy" seems to be your last resort for everything. If you're going to keep playing that tune, get yourself a funny hat and a monkey because you're being a clown.

HAHAHAAHA! Now that's a good one, PCM. However you got a lot of support for your ironic comment. For Sicatoka, there were reports on the damage to the Fargodome - it was endzone seating back when the Dome first opened. This was all pre-internet so I can't link to the original story. I'm also sorry to say that I can't supply video of UND fans putting big old dents into the seating or link to digitized copies of the job cost estimates for the repairs or tell you where to get copies of notarized accounts from at least ten impartial eyewitnesses to satisfy everybody's thirst for the truth. Besides, I'm not sure that UND fans did it, I was just trying to see how classy people would react to the accusation. I actually think that NDSU fans probably did it Strangely, I get the feeling that I won't have to dig up all the supporting material for that statement because, as an NDSU fan, my word can be taken as absolute fact when I'm critical of NDSU but not when I'm supportive. That's odd "logic." But not as odd as the logic supporting the conclusion that silence by the Fargo media about incidents involving UND coaches and players must mean that the incidents never happened. Now that is really odd considering that the Rocky's staff being pelted or the beer can things never made the news but Rocky using the word, "knucklehead," sure did. Oh well, I've had my fun for the day.

Oh, all these posts along the lines of "NDSU is inherently-racist" and now you want some objectivity? Please. Clayton, I'm not trying to "justify the allegations of racist comments" because I have no idea what you are trying to say. Am I trying to justify shouting racist comments at a coach? No. She reported herself that is was a racial comment (whatever that is) and that the comment was along the lines of "Nice afro." That's almost verbatim from the Grand Forks Herald. That's not a racist comment. Can you justify calling NDSU inherently racist because a fan yelled, "Nice afro?" I mean, what else are you basing this off of. One thing I know is that the moron or morons at the Mankato game were not employees of NDSU. Gene Roebuck is an employee at UND.

NDSU's Student Newspaper's Account I don't agree with the idea that opposing coaches and players should be taunted but for crying loud Roebuck makes Rocky look like Ghandi. When Rocky had a beer can thrown at him, did he start yelling obscenities or run into the crowd to confront the drunk little frat boy who launched it? Nope. When his assistants had stuff thrown at them, did they yell obscenities or go into the crowd and kick some ass? Nope. They kept their heads down, made no response, and didn't go crying to the media. In fact, neither incident made the news at all. If it had happened in Fargo, it would have been an AP newswire story. When the Fargodome got trashed, did the Forum run editorials about how UND fans were little better than soccer hooligans? Nope. I could go on.

This is probably the first time that I've agreed with everything a UND guy said (well, almost everything). However, if NDSU doesn't have a conference lined up by the end of the 2004 season, I'd consider that a failure as NDSU's AD stated that NDSU would have a conference by then or else heads would roll. I think that made some people believe that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on that meant that NDSU had a conference all but locked up. I've been thinking that UND might be waiting to see if they get a lot of money from the Ralph Engelstad estate. If they get it, they could go DI without having to do all groundwork that NDSU did and they'd be doing it without the full support and leadership of the President Kupchella. If UND doesn't get enough money to do whatever they want, then they'll go through the same process that NDSU did.

Interesting as in "I can't believe they could say stuff like that with a straight-face." How about, "they said they get all the exposure from the pros that a Division I school gets?" If there's a line in Vegas on UND going DI in three years, I think that we know where the smart money would be.

I just read in the Fargo paper that UNC hockey player David Hale is in the hospital. It doesn't seem right that a healthy young guy like that should be in the hospital in the first place. I hope for a speedy and full recovery - hopefully he's on his way back to Grand Forks before anybody reads this.

Hahahaha! Good one! Yeah, actually I had received a couple emails from people panicked because they had heard that NDSU wasn't going to play UND next year and I responded in a very forceful manner to squash the rumor and mock UND at the same time. If you show any doubt when confronting a rumor, you aren't effective countering it. I consider this another example of a rumor circulated purely out of malice for NDSU. However, just by the style of prose you should be able to tell that I'm going over the top with it - as people often do when attempting to be humorous. As has been pointed out many times before, I'm not good at it - even though I thought "flouncing mad" was a nice turn of phrase. Anyhow, I thought that I had read a message on this very board suggesting that UND should/might refuse to play NDSU because of the controversy over NDSU's PA announcers not calling UND's team the "Fighting Sioux", however, since I can't remember the exact wording and this board gets a great deal of activity, it's hard to track down the post in question. Although there have been plenty of hints from Roger Thomas that the rivalry would end because of NDSU moving up, I wouldn't characterize his hints as being inpsired by him being flouncing mad about something - he is just completely unable, like star2city and sicatoka, to express a thought except by alluding to it.

If you couldn't tell, star2city, part of what gets me riled up is when people mince around issues rather than saying what they actually think - especially when they use this technique so they can say anything negative they want with impunity because they are "only asking a question" or "just repeating something they heard." Did you explicitly say, "I think that NDSU is going to drop wrestling?" No. You wrote that NDSU is going to have a tough time finding a conference for wrestling immediately before a sentence in which you repeat rumors that NDSU is going to drop wrestling. Writing that NDSU will probably not find a home for conference wrestling doesn

Sicatoka, the only thing you got right was that talk is cheap. I'm trying to find out just how cheap Star2City's talk is. I'm not going to debate him because I don't even think he believes his line of BS. BTW, could you fill in the blank in the following sentence: "I think that there is a ___% chance that NDSU will drop wrestling in the next five years." I'd say that there is a 1% chance but not for any of the reasons that Star2City gave.

In my view, S2C's stated two things about NDSU. First, he is saying that NDSU is going to drop wrestling. The stuff about conferences and travel are supporting arguments for this idea, not separate contentions - otherwise what relation do they have with the central idea that UND should add wrestling? Second, he is saying that NDSU is vacating a need... HUH!? Who the hell dropped wrestling in the first place? His only other errors were that he doesn't seem to know that St. Cloud State has wrestling and that he thinks that wrestlers are going to be getting track and football scholarships. Unlike his stuff about NDSU, at least he wasn't trying to work in a jab - he was just mistaken. This "I'm just asking questions" and "I'm just repeating what I heard" crap is getting pretty old, particularily when you yourself tend to use the technique to insinuate things about NDSU. All I'm asking is that if he really thinks that NDSU is doomed to drop wrestling that he would show that he believes what he is insinuating.

Star2city, it's a shame that you post anything about NDSU because on other topics you can be rational - although I think that you will be disappointed by the number of wrestlers that would be getting football or track scholarships. On one hand, you are right; UND should add wrestling. On the other, everything you wrote about NDSU's wrestling program is hogwash. I doubt that you'd be willing to demonstrate the strength of your convictions about NDSU dropping its wrestling program by taking up a legal wager of some sort, but for my part, I'd be willing to bet that NDSU will not drop wrestling in the next five years. If you take this bet and lose, you will swear not to write or speak about NDSU, except in an unreservedly positive manner, for an entire year. You can come up with a similar penalty for me. If you are unwilling to take this bet because you know deep down that what you wrote is BS, then why did you write it in the first place?

Hahahaha! What could Coach G possibly say that would seriously help or hurt NDSU's chances of getting into the Big Sky? Are they going to ask Coach G. about the travel? Are they going to ask Coach G. whether adding two state flaghsip schools to the Big Sky will help them or hurt them? Are they going to ask Coach G. if NDSU's twenty national championships in six diffferent sports were a fluke? Are they going to ask Coach G. if NDSU's football program is really the greatest in DII history?

EWU's BB coach will have no real effect on the Big Sky's decision.

DS, you said that it was a mistake to have two flagship institutions. So you don't mind that NDSU is competitive, but if you had your way you would rectify this mistake by doing what? And why would this have been better for North Dakota?

DamStrait, granted the tone of my first post wasn't very sociable but it is not my intention to play the troll on this board. I think that UND people should understand where NDSU people like myself are coming from - that's why I bug you guys. Although there are lots of NDSU people more charming and good-natured than I, I don't see them trying to open up a dialog with the UND fans on this board. As for misrepresentinn you, did I misunderstand you when you wrote, "Truth is ND is not big enough to have two flagship schools, but that mistake was made over 100 years ago?" I wrote that you were expressing the belief that "North Dakota would be better off if NDSU wasn't as competitive as it is with UND." Now, how am I misrepresenting you again? Didn't I go far enough? Did you mean that North Dakota would be better off without NDSU? The welfare of Grand Forks and UND may be one in the same but the welfare of UND and North Dakota are not.

star2city, I don't believe you sometimes. NDSU's student activity fees do not come out of the state budget and if they were to go for DI expenses, the state would have no exposure so NO they have no business getting involved in this way. And btw, if UND wins both BB games, good for them. Jim, if it is against the state's interests to subsidize a move to DI, shouldn't it be wrong to subsidize staying in DII, NAIA, or some JUCO league? I don't understand the thinking behind the bill at all. If they want to vote on whether a ND university can ever go DI, that would be one thing - but it would have made a heck of lot more sense to do it sometime in the last twenty years rather than waiting until NDSU made a decision and then voting. That's a failure of leadership all right ( to use star2city's words) but it's not Chapman's. It's not like the state of ND didn't have more than 20 years of warning that NDSU was thinking of leaving DII. Anyway, how many NDSU fans sound like JBB? A LOT of UND fans on this board sound like star2city - a guy who seems to burp bile anytime NDSU is mentioned. Or like DamStrait who seems to think that North Dakota would be better off if NDSU wasn't as competitive as it is with UND? Or like Ed Schultz who doesn't think at all but sure yells a lot?

Ah, come on guys. You think that the is guy who introduces legislation is always the guy who came up with the idea? People in government do whatever is politically expedient - and if having somebody impartial introduce a bill is better, they ask that person to do it. It's who enters the debate in favor of the bill that tells you where the support for it lies. I'm not saying that this is what happened but it has been how things have been done in the past. That wasn't my point though. You guys represent UND for me and you are not doing a very good job. You guys are UND fans and I base my judgements somewhat on your so-easy-to-predict responses. With the happy exception of Jim, you can't seem to tell the difference between right and wrong, or ferret out (or should I say weasel out ) what the gist of my posts have been. And by the way, I am from western ND and I'm not aware that many people are pissed off about NDSU's move (as if that would justify this bill). Most people I've talked to are excited about playing Montana schools again and there are a LOT more NDSU grads out west than UND grads.

I can't believe you missed my point. I'm not irate about the bill because it's not going to pass. I was outraged that Jim actually thought there was a question whether it was wrong to pass legislation written as a "screw you" to NDSU. Nor could I believe that if he thinks DI should be self-sufficient, that JUCO, NAIA, and DII athletics are worth subsidizing. Now it turns out that DamStrait and Star2City seem to think that the legislation is OK. Jim was bad enough - you guys are truly shocking. Maybe I was so harsh that you took the opposite position just because I made you angry. What I was trying to give Jim was the written equivalent of a slap on the back of the head you give to a friend who has done something really stupid.