aff
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Posts posted by aff
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UND and USD will be in the Great West. Either 2008 or 2009.
That means UND will have its top 2 sports taken care of as far as a conference goes.
At the latest, the GWFC can be considered for an autobid in 2014. If WIU or another established team comes over, 2010 is the year.
Then it just comes down to what confernce do you want your basketball team to be in? Do you even care about basketball? I know USD will.
The Mid Con isn't a bad option. Esp. if NDSU and SDSU are in.
So when do you think UND/USD are going to announce which conference they're joining? I'm sure the big sky and mid-con are on the edge of their seats waiting for the big announcement of which of them gets to have UND/USD! Man, the SU's are terrible, they had to take the first conference to admit them, and had to wait THREE years for it. Good thing UND/USD can simply choose their conference and let the members know a year early that they will need to adjust their schedules for their admittance.
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Hockey isn't going to hurt UND in the transition to DI, or in the search for a conference. The very least it can do is help. This has been discussed alot before. My take on it is sure, hockey is king at UND.......and football is king at NDSU. Does anyone really think that the fact that NDSU sponsors football is going to keep them out of the Mid-Con, a conference that doesn't sponsor football? Nope.
Thanks to hockey, UND already has working relationships with many DI schools like Minnesota, Denver, Maine, New Hampshire, the list goes on and on. Thanks to hockey, UND is already a known and recognizable commodity to not only administrations of DI athletic departments, but to the fanbase of many DI institutions. And of course, thanks to hockey, UND is blessed with outstanding facilities. Can't think of a nicer place to hold conference basketball tournament than Ralph Engelstad Arena.
I think that people believe hockey will be a hinderance to a successful D-I basketball program, because unlike football and basketball, hockey and basketball are competing at identical times of the year for the same fan base. If you tell someone that you are averaging 11,000 for hockey, thats great, but now tell me what the chances of UND averaging 11,000 for mens basketball is going to be? It simply won't happen, because there isn't a large enough fan base a mid-major type school to have that many fans for 2 different simultaneous sports. Saying "Football is kind at XXX, and their basketball is fine", is a fallacy, because football and basketball aren't directly competing for fans with each other, in fact, they are probably assisting each other, because football fans will likely be bored in the winter, and may switch over to watching basketball. Hockey fans are probably going to watch hockey at UND though, and basketball fans are going to watch basketball.
Also, what do you think the mid con is going to assume your priorities are? If UND has a losing season in hockey, and 5-25 season in mens basketball, both likely because of funding, which is UND going to put more money into? Hockey of course, because thats the money maker, and thats where UND gets its claim to fame from. How is the mid-con going to like that though? They'll be stuck playing a low RPI team, screwing over their most important sport. (This is a hypothetical situation to show the importance of certain sports teams at UND, don't tell me that its unlikely to happen, I know that). Douple has been talking about getting the conference up to two bid status in the future, and the presidents want that to be their goal. In order to do that they will need to bring the bottom feeders in the conference up in RPI, by getting them to add more funding. I think that they'll consider UND's basketball success probability very, very hard to add them to the conference. Even the most die hard UND fans have to admit that NDSU/SDSU combination presents a better chance for D-I basketball success than UND does. I know that neither school has exactly been dominating, but NDSU really looks like they've put together a great team, and SDSU has almost everything in place, including the history, to produce a winner. That has to come across as better than mens basketball being your fourth priority (hockey, football, womens basketball).
Finally, mid con coaches are going to know that hockey is going to be used against UND in the recruiting process in basketball. Its hard enough to get D-I talent, how is it going to be trying to get talent, when other coaches are telling your recruits that they are the last priority at UND, so they should attend somewhere else to play?
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Two years ago among ardent Bison fans I'd put it at 80-20 at best.
Casual fans didn't know the Mid-Con existed until a few weeks ago.
I think a key question fans need to ask themselves is why would the big sky after three years of the SU's begging them for admission, now want to expand to the Dakotas, when both SU's will likely be in the midcon. Is UND worth that much more in october than the SU's were last spring? I'm not making a judgement, but I think the issue really comes down to this point.
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If NDSU is offered a Big Sky invite once they are in the MidCon, NDSU will jump so quick it won't even be funny. No way in hedoublehockeysticks will they turn down their dream conference for an unstable one.
I don't think anybody has to worry about this situation for the next twenty years.
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Greeley Tribune: Big Sky brings Bears into fold
This link clearly shows that:
UND is still a Big Sky possibility.
Denver U, even without football (and contrary to conventional message board group thought), is also a possibility, especially for travel reasons.
Will DU be an ally to UND? The BSC needs DU and its DI core membership status more than DU needs the BSC. DU needs rivals (it has none in the SunBelt) and UND fits that bill possibly more than any other BSC school, even UNC.
Denver has attractive travel costs with Southwest Airlines now flying into DIA
Fullerton is talking up the Montana and Montana State alumni base in the Denver metro area. Who else has a decent alumni base there, that actually show up for DU hockey and UNC football games, and possibly BSC championship events?
Hmm, video streaming conference games must be an important initiative. Who already has in-house capability to do this?Others schools specifically mentioned by Fullerton:
NDSU - a school "envious" of UNC's membership - (would NDSU pay an entry fee to the MidCon for the 2007-8 season, and then pay an exit fee and then an entry fee to the Big Sky for the next? - one year in the MidCon could get expensive
).. and of course there's ..... SDSU (taking either NDSU or SDSU would likely cause the MidCon to take another school, is this why USD will announce a DI decision in November, right after the BSC meetings so if NDSU is gone, USD becomes SDSU's travel partner in the MidCon?) -
Southern Utah "has always been hanging around" (would force the MidCon to add another DI core school)
Utah Valley State gets mentioned (for the first time in my recollection)
One school not mentioned that could get a lot of attention from conferences in October if the NCAA approves its membership:
University of British Columbia (presumably wouldn't move football to the NCAA) Would Portland St, Sac St, and E Wash, as a political compromise, push for another Pacific Time Zone school? UBC doesn't fit the private-school WCC profile and its athletic profile may not be high enough (yet) for the WAC. Hockey would be its marquee sport, which might entice DU to also lobby for UBC as a precondition of membership. Would the WCHA take in UBC?
Still hold firm on October prediction: UND, NDSU, and DU get invited for campus visits. BSC gets the UND/NDSU combo in 2008-9. MidCon gets the SDSU/USD combo in 2008-9.Ah, yes another of Fullertons victims. There was a time when I took him seriously, but no more. Seriously, in that article the guy sounds a little full of himself, discussing how "everybody wants in" blah, blah, blah. Don't give him the satisfaction of letting him get your hopes up, only to crush them, its all his does. Fullerton is a dream breaker, and I think hes a little mad that the SU's aren't going to play anymore. And "one of the best conferences in Division I", yeah, its not exactly the big 10 over there. And I almost laughed about the comments about "only adding schools that help with competitiveness". Thats why they added UNC, the team that beat, what, one great west team in two seasons? And the mens basketball program that it took two years to get a division I win? Yeah, much better than the SU's. And I'm glad that the UNC football players are sooo much happier in the big sky, it must have gotten rough coming in last in the great west two years running. That article was almost unbelievable.
About your scenario, I don't really agree with a lot of it. Why would the big sky, if they intended to have UND and NDSU in conference, wait for the mid con to complete its expansion, before even giving NDSU a hint? If they were really serious, they wouldn't have done that, they would have extended a visit to at least NDSU during the last expansion round to at least keep themselves in the running for NDSU.
I think in all of that talk, you missed the blatant options for the sky... adding only denver. Gives 10 for basketball and 9 for football. The other choice, but more unlikely, is only S. Utah is added. Gives 10 for both. In either of these scenarios, UND is most likely up a creek, as the mid con most likely won't move to the dakotas for a single member, and will probably be forced to take UTPA.
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I'm hoping that you're right. I don't know NDSU is going to handle their MidCon invite, as I think it is coming. They would need something concrete from the BSC to turn down an invitation from the MidCon.
I'm pretty sure mid-con competition will be starting for the SU's in 07-08, as has been previously stated, for when Valpo leaves the conference. I also think its unlikely, even in the unlikely scenario you layed out above, that USD will get an invite in probably their first year of D-I transition. In that case I would say UTPA gets a nod.
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As were NDSU and SDSU.
Directly from the NCC to the GWFC. The same could be for UND, USD, abd UNO in 2008.
Yeah, pretty sure the GWFC isn't really an established conference that would count for this. That and I doubt that DI-AA football has the same importance as basketball to the NCAA.
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http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2006/0...ing/336884.html
Wouldn't bet on this being approved, but if approval occurs, UND's appeal to a conference would increase furtgher. The eligibility for men's basketball has already been reduced from 13 years to 5 years if there is a conference affiliation.
UCA is going from 36 to 63 scholarships in one year? Rather impressive. No other school has been able to match that from my understanding.Here's where the article is in error:
UC-Davis, Presbyterian, Kennesaw St, SC-Upstate, Florida Gulf Coast, and North Florida all have been able to move directly to a DI conference from DII.No way that passes. The rule wasn't created to make sense, it was created to discourage move ups from going, to protect the basketball money. If it does pass, what do you say to school that have recently moved up with a conference, such as UC Davis? Sorry?
Its also laughable that they think they are going to have home and home football games with memphis, missouri, and whatever other school was on there.
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No topic has been banned for discussion. I'm asking people to make an effort to using threading to keep topics organized, because I think that helps keep the board more accessible to newer guests / those who don't visit as many times per day.
A lot of people might be interested in UND D-I recruiting, conference, scheduling, etc... discussions, but if every thread with such titles actually turns into Bison / SDSU fans pontificating about UND's 2008 budget, those guests will perceive this as just another smack-filled message board and quit reading.
I appreciate your responses and I understand where you're coming from. I guess I hadn't personally noticed threads such as recruiting etc. having budget discussion, but I don't take the time to go through this site as I'm sure you do. I would hope that a lot of my opinions aren't nearly as offensive as some of the readers of this site have indicated to me in the past couple of days, I really am only trying to have legitimate discussion on a lot of these topics. Even though the vast majority of what I say isn't positive for UND, I would hope that people understand I'm not trying to hurt the institution by voicing opinions that may not be in lock-step with what the majority thinks. I'm thinking I may back off of posting at the frequency I have been for a couple of weeks, as I think I have irritated a few to many people on the board, and any post of mine would be counter-productive for an intelligent conversation about anything.
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This argus article states a few schools budgets and UND's budget without hockey for 04-05.
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bincitysioux, I am with you in the hope that UND ends up in the BSC.
I am sure some fan from the opposition will put me in my place.
Isn't it interesting that a writer from another part of the country has an interest in UND and it's budget of 10 million Ok 9.9 Million.
I would think USD would like to hitch the wagon and ride but with their current budget at 4.5 million might be a stretch for them IMHO.
UNO on the other hand at 6.5 million would look pretty good to some people. (source GF Herald 7/9/06)
UNO seems to be pushing fast for a decision before school starts. UNO as a travel partner is a stretch I admit
but they seem to mirror UND pretty well IMHO. And they play that H-word in the CCHA.
Look at the travel they do Alaska, Ohio, Michigan they must have a pretty good idea of how to run a budget. 
There are bus lines and in the old days of the NCC this wasn't a bad trip....
No I don't think that UND is a shoe in to the BSC. I REPEAT I DO NOT THINK UND IS A SHOE IN TO THE BSC!!!!!!
But it doesn't hurt or cost any $$$ to dream either.
Refer to the D-I budget thread, I have posted an article that is relevant to this post.
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"Pro-communist ideals"? Yeah, that's not hysterical.
If you're getting offended by comments on this board, then click the mouse button somewhere else. It seems quite simple to me. Ask all the budgetary questions you want, just don't hijack every thread. Keep it here. If Jim didn't want discourse on the subject, he would've likely banned your rear-end a number of weeks ago.
First, I haven't hijacked any threads, those were other members. Second, Pro-communist ideals was obviously sarcasm, I thought if I made it stupid enough, people would see its obviously sarcasm. Guess not. Third, shouldn't a discourse be under a thread about UND moving D-I, or are we now only allowed to talk about how great the move is in that thread? I don't understand the logic in having this stuff posted on another thread. Finanaces are a big deal in a move. Ask savannah state. Aren't any of you concerned about it, or are you just going to pretend that every thing is fine?
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And in my view yours is nothing more than anti-UND propaganda. Contrary to your rants, hockey at UND brings money into the athletic department and pays for other non-revenue sports. That being the case, if the 'SUs are able to make the move, any reasonable person would expect that UND can too.
You are unreasonable in your demands from UND fans on this site to answer questions they cannot possibly be expected to answer. If you are really curious, find them for yourself and then share your findings with the rest of us. I suggest you start with AD Tom Buning and President Kupchella. Until then you have nothing new to add.
You should be very grateful that Jim is as patient as he is, letting you make your "points" ad nauseum. Were it up to me, your posterior would be gone.
Of course you would kick me off, I said something against UND, God forbid anyone says something about the budget (even though your own president has voiced his concern about it). I mean, the president of UND can not be sure, but lord knows that anyone on this board that doesn't think it might work out should be booted.
Seriously, what you call "anti UND propaganda" in asking questions about a budget in D-II that needs tuition waivers to stay afloat, I call common sense. What do you expect? Your AD issues a report about a coming deficit in D-II. Your own president doesn't want to move because he doesnt think the money is there. You can't even get a womens hockey program funded with actual money in scholarships, and have to use tuition waivers. But then you call anyone who doubts that UND can make it financially in D-I as someone who spouts off propaganda? Its just common sense, you can't afford what you have now, your financial plan involves telling people that the move up costs $1 million, which is incorrect, your president has quotes such as "we may be forced to move, even though it makes little sense" etc. and you have the guts to tell people that they are talking about propaganda? I guess your definition of proganda is anything you don't want to hear. Go ahead, stick your head in the sand, see what happens.
And I'm unreasonable asking questions to UND fans that they can't possibly answer? Does that maybe ring a warning bell for anyone on here? That theres no plan for this move, so these questions can't be answered? You would think that maybe, just maybe, before announcing UND was going to go D-I, they might, I don't, HAVE A PLAN TO ACCOMPLISH IT. I'm sure this is just some more propaganda though. Why have a plan, when you can just declare your moving and hope it works, or not in kuppys case, when he leaves before the transition is even done, and UND is left holding the basket. God, I guess I just can't stop myself with the propaganda though.
I would like you to look through my posts and show me where I said hockey didn't generate money. I pointed out ways that hockey was going to hurt you in this move, probably more than the money you're making. Here were my points:
1. Hockey is at the same time as mens basketball. Only one can be a fans priority. Mens basketball conferences are going to assume its hockey, which it is.
2. Womens hockey is a huge drain on your budget, and requires scholarships to even get out of having tuition waivers.
3. Hockey is going to get scheduling priority over basketball, meaning that either the conference that UND could possibly join is going to have to schedule around UND hockey, or UND is only going to have approximately a 4000 seat basketball arena. Look at the arenas of schools being added to the midcon coming up (NDSU will soon upgrade their arena).
4. Conferences will assume that hockey will get funding priority over mens basketball. That doesn't speak well to a commitment to mens basketball.
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You're credibility continues to grow with every post.
Ever heard of sarcasm.
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Jim started this thread for the express purpose of allowing those questions to be asked. Perhaps you should stop posting hysterical rants and start asking those questions.
Right, he just doesn't want to hear them when talking about UND going D-I. So to summarize, when discussing UND going D-I, the budget isn't a valid topic, even though its the single most important factor in a move.
Since we're making comments about each others posts that are almost crazy in their comparisons such as my "hysterical rants", I'm getting pretty offended by all of your pro-communist ideals you keep lambasting us with.
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1. NDSU had a relatively balanced budget.
2. NDSU has not seen an increase in student fees because of DI.
3. increased giving, operating reveune, and institutional support
4. NDSU has dealt with Title IX with increased giving by Team Makers members and benefits from the high male/female ratio and student interest in the sports it already offers
5. I haven't seen too much on SDSU or NDSU with respect to meeting minutes. If you dig you can find some documents that refer to NDSU's institutional funding.
Sorry for saying that NDSU had raised fees, I thought I heard that, but I was incorrect. Thanks for the info.
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One thing I've noticed about the ndsu and sdsu fans in this thread. You continually attack UND based on concerns about their budget and how supposedly those two schools were better off financially when they made their move than UND is. BinCitySioux then produced a link to an impartial record keeping site that demonstrated that simply isn't the case (I know it's a year old but we don't have numbers for this year yet). You then proclaim that the site obviously uses dubious accounting to come up with their numbers when they used the same accounting basis to calculate all three schools revenue and expenditures. None of you have produced any such links to back up any of your claims and when we produce them to defend UND you say they aren't good enough. This sort of behavior leads many of us to question your motives. I firmly believe that most of you will not be content with any sort of answers to your questions other than us stating that UND will fail with this Division I move.
I never said it was "dubious". The point of that site is to show the relationship between mens and womens sports at an individual school, and how they are in reference to title IX. The site accomplishes these goals very well. The site wasn't intended as an indicator of total athletic budgets to compare school to school, as many posters have done, and it doesn't show everything that is or isn't in a budget. Advertising for instance. This doesn't really have to do with men or women, and isn't a title IX issue, so is it included with that site? There are several anamolies like this when using it. The site asks questions in a way that ensures that questions are answered equally for males and females at a school, but not for each individual school. I believe this is a reason why I'm sure USD comes out looking great on there...because they have to because they have 60% girls and 40% boys.
If you want references for budgets heres a few I've used before.
SDSU:
USD:
USD Volante Article- 2 years ago
UND:
I've been using your task force report saying you were going to run a deficit for claims about UND
NDSU:
I've never commented on their budget
Trash the USD article if you want, but thats straight from the horses mouth. Don't like it, fine, but don't tell me its not accurate. I will choose to believe USD budget from USD's AD.
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Honest questions to SDSU and NDSU fans, because I really don't know.
Was either school running a deficit prior to the move?
Did either school increase student fees to pay for the move to Division I?
How did each of the two schools fund their moves?
How did each school handle the Title IX issue? I know that SDSU was adding equestrian, was that enough to offset the difference in scholarships?
All of UND's athletic department meetings are available online. Is there anywhere where SDSU or NDSU has posted their meeting minutes?
For one of your questions, SDSU and now every SD public institution isn't allowed to increase student fees to pay for D-I because of a governing law passed by the SD board of regents when they were trying to transistion. This is one of the main reasons that a move to D-I by USD is so unrealistic right now.
I believe that NDSU has increased their student fees, but someone more in the know can confirm that.
Equestrian is more than enough to offset gender balances at any school, since it can involve upwards of 60 girls (not all on scholarship of course) from a numbers point of view. For scholarships, equestrian coupled with other womens sports with higher scholarship limits should also be enough for title IX, unless there are significantly more women than men at the school (USD again).
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Your complaint about something Jim has every right to do.
I didn't say there wasn't a right to do that, but he also needs to decide if this board is only for posting positive information on UND, or if realistic questions can be asked about UND's plans. I don't think that asking a series of serious of questions about the financial situation of a school moving to D-I is that out of line to ask.
If nobody is allowed to question the monetary situation of UND thats fine, but don't pretend this board is being realistic about anything anymore. Its no better than propaganda in my view.
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Due to popular demand, here is an official thread for SDSU/NDSU fans to congregate and discuss their mutual concerns over UND's future athletic budgets. Sioux fans' responses about the 'SUs secret deficits should also occur here. Spam other threads with it at your own peril.
I have to say I think you've been pretty fair in the past, but this is kind of out of line. If there is a thread title "UND D-I move" you no longer want to discuss the budget of UND on that thread? Is that really the message you want to send out to people? I don't think that it is at all obvious that UND can actually fund this move, but you're already calling monetary concerns "spam"? I don't think there would be the problems with budget concerns on a lot of these UND D-I threads if there were actual answers to those questions out there from your administration. Whose fault is it that there isn't answers? Posters from other schools with legitimate questions, or the UND administration?
I will personally abide by this thread if thats what you truly want, but I think you should reconsider your threats to posters for putting up questions about UND's budget. And for the record, I don't think it was that big of a deal for a thread about UNO's budgets concerns (with obvious parallels to UND) to turn into a debate along the same lines for UND. I think a bigger problem was people bringing up UND hockey championships in a thread about UNO's budget problems. Which one seems more out of place to you?
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I'm going to be pretty interested in who gets hired as the new chancellor. This is probably the worst thing that could happen to the NDUS.
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Are you saying that it is your opinion that U of M and SDSU "manipulated" their numbers to show deficits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because that is more favorable than their actual situation? That doesn't sound good.
The reason I used this site is because all institutions have to report their numbers to it, using certain criteria. It is the only source available, that I am aware of, that offers the information about every school in an objective manner, in which all schools must follow certain parameters while reporting. Unlike you, aff, I don't have access to all of these school's ledger books
, so I feel that whether these numbers are "manipulated" or not, at least they are all reported following the same guidelines for each school. If you are more comfortable using the numbers from an SDSU press release and comparing it to the numbers you read in an article in USD's school newspaper writted by a sophomore journalism student and then taking those numbers and comparing them to the ones that NDSU has posted on the Equity in Athletics website, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. Yeah, and no, you don't like to use numbers from a press release and an interview with an AD. You like to use numbers that are over a year old as evidence that UND and USD aren't running a deficit this year. Wow.
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Are you saying that it is your opinion that U of M and SDSU "manipulated" their numbers to show deficits in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because that is more favorable than their actual situation? That doesn't sound good.
The reason I used this site is because all institutions have to report their numbers to it, using certain criteria. It is the only source available, that I am aware of, that offers the information about every school in an objective manner, in which all schools must follow certain parameters while reporting. Unlike you, aff, I don't have access to all of these school's ledger books
, so I feel that whether these numbers are "manipulated" or not, at least they are all reported following the same guidelines for each school. If you are more comfortable using the numbers from an SDSU press release and comparing it to the numbers you read in an article in USD's school newspaper writted by a sophomore journalism student and then taking those numbers and comparing them to the ones that NDSU has posted on the Equity in Athletics website, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. Oh, you must be refering to the numbers reported directly from the AD's mouths. I guess thats a bunch of crap though. We should go with the site that has five or six categories for all expenses. Those must all be the same way of reporting. Get your head out of the sand, its just as easy to manipulate those reports as it is to make up an entire budget. Those numbers are reported by the schools, nobody checks them, and that categories are vague enough that you can put whatever you want. They all aren't reported in the same manner as you claim.
So how about those questions? Are tuition waivers included on those reports? Those are obviously an athletic expense. So where are they on the report? What about one time facility upgrades? Are they there. Since you know those are all reported in the same manner, you must know if those are on the report or not. Or just ignore this and try and trash interviews with AD's reporting their own budgets. What do they know about athletics.
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Q: So how is UND going to fund a move to D-I?
UND Fan: We have 7 national hockey titles. Do you want to know the years?
Q: No, I want to know how you're going to fund a move to D-I.
UND Fan: We beat Wisconsin the last two years in hockey thats how.
Q: Umm ok, so how are you going to be competitive in basketball in D-I, when you haven't been in D-II.
UND Fan: The frozen four is the best attended event in the NCAA.
Q: I didn't ask that, but alright. So what about that deficit that you're running in D-II. Can you make that up.
UND Fan: We play minnesota in hockey every year.
Q: I don't care. So where are you going for a conference.
UND Fan: We're in a conference with minnesota, and wisconsin and we play them every year.
Q: The mid con seems kind of full, are you sure they'll want you?
UND Fan: Hockey.
Q: What? What are you even talking about.
UND Fan: The ralph is the best facility on the face of the planet. Hockey is played in it.
Q: Are you going to talk about anything besides hockey?
UND Fan: What? You want to talk about hockey? Did you know that UND has 7 national hockey championships?
UND Fan: Did you know that Jesus was the first hockey player?
Q: I don't think thats correct.
UND: Oh man you are so jealous of our championships. Get it over it, we're the best.
Q: I'm leaving.
UND Fan: HOOOOOCCCCKKKKEY.
So anybody want to talk about your move to D-I in other sports?
North Dakota's plans for adding scholarships
in NCAA News
Posted
Not allocated Expenses:
UND: $1,340,124
NDSU: $2,201,594
I'm sorry, I'm just very tired of seeing that site dragged out over and over again, and its numbers taken as gospel. Those not allocated numbers above are approximately 30% of the budget? How can you possibly talk about the budgets of those schools specific programs, when you don't know where that much of their money is even going to? Its stupid to makes comparisons based on information that doesn't even factor in a over a quarter of the total budget.